.425 Express?

[Deleted member 53080]

I saw this rifle on GB this morning and found it interesting. It has a few things against it IMHO but still a neat rifle. I had never heard of this cartridge before today. Anybody have first hand experience with one? https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886760870

 

[SnowLeopard]

I saw this rifle on GB this morning and found it interesting. It has a few things against it IMHO but still a neat rifle. I had never heard of this cartridge before today. Anybody have first hand experience with one? https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886760870

According to CARTRIDGE COLLECTOR website:

The .425 Express cartridge was designed in 1987 for African hunts by Cameron Hopkins and Whit Collins along with a prototype rifle for this patron John French.The initial model of the weapon for the .425 Express cartridge was a Ruger mod. 77 with bolt lock. The cartridge is based on a slightly shortened .300 Winchester Magnum case.

425 EXPRESS - Cartridge Collector

The .425 Express cartridge was designed in 1987 for African hunts by Cameron Hopkins and Whit Collins along with a prototype rifle for this patron John French.The initial model of the weapon for the .425 Express cartridge was a Ruger mod. 77 with bolt lock. The cartridge is based on a slightly...

www.cartridgecollector.net

 

[ldmay375]

I recall vaguely the shooting magazines having an article or two on the 425 Express. I have seen on various forums a few people (Very few) mentioning rifles so chambered.
Also, Savage at least advertised rifles in the 425.
I have never seen one in person.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Looks like it fits in a standard action. 400 grains at 2400 fps seems pretty formidable. It’s amazing how many wildcats there are. I don’t reload yet but I wonder how hard it would be to form brass for it out of 300 WM?

 

[machinistbutler]

It would be difficult to take it on a hunt to Africa I would think, or difficult to have the ammunition allowed if it had a different headstamp.

The 400 grain at 2400 is in the 416 Rigby and 416 Rem territory, which is very good. Not sure what pressures it would be running .

 

[ldmay375]

Roberson and Quality both manufacture brass for the 425.
I don’t know if in stock, but MidwayUSA and Graf & Sons list one or the other manufacturers.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Roberson and Quality both manufacture brass for the 425.
I don’t know if in stock, but MidwayUSA and Graf & Sons list one or the other manufacturers.

I saw that as well. Looks like properly head stamped brass is hard to come by, especially in this climate. I knew it was a given that it would be a purely hand loading proposition.

 

[lwaters]

Sounds similar to 416 Taylor.

 

[meigsbucks]

As others have stated, correctly head stamped brass would be tough to come by. The A-Square loading manual has some info about it.
A .416 Ruger or .416 Taylor would do the same thing and have all components as well as ammo decidedly easier to find.

 

[Rosch]

Dear Big Bore Friends,

Surfing for all interesting things about Big Game and Co. I stumbled over this thread.
This is quiet some days back but I like to contribute some more information about this great cartridge, the .425 Express Magnum.

First I like to tell You, that I've lived more than 15 years in southern africa, being very much engaged to everything concerning hunting african game. That is now more than 20 years ago.
As today there was in these days and the days before the ultimate question, which caliber is suitable, to handle next to all situations, which can occure in the african bush. The local african farmers weren't so much concerned about diameter and energy, mostly the 30-06 Springfield was used to handle all, which needed final solutions.
Sometimes on the farms, if one shot wasn't enough in the one or other case, quantity did the job at least, means fire until no life signs were shown from the target anymore.

To be fair, I have to mention that those farmers were mostly splendid shooters and the .30 caliber in their hands was a serious combination, because they knew how and where to place the shot. Oryx, Kudu, Hartebeest or even Eland was harvested with the 30-06. No problem!!
Cats or bigger needed more attention and ammo. Besides, 30-06 ammo was cheap and all time available from PMP made in RSA.

For me as an european hunter, it had to be more than just doing the trick with an ordinary 30-06, it had to be a big bore rifle with an impressive datasheet and a even so impressive cartridge.
Most used or new big bore rifles, which were available in african gun shops these days, where of two types: Totally screwed or unaffordable.
So I decided to built my own. Parts like Barrel, stock, trigger were quickly decided.
Due to the fact, that I'm a great admirer of the Mauser K98 bolt action, nothing else was even an option. The question about the caliber was a more time taking decission. First I was with the .458 Winchester Magnum. Handloaded with good 350 Grain bullets for daily business, generating next to 30-06 outside ballistics, and the 500 Grainers for closer and bigger sized game, there wasn't much empty space.
Sadly there was that rumour, that the .458 had often problems with powder clumping and due to that missfires, I discarded that idea and searched for another caliber, fitting into those affordable but also limited 98 action dimensions.
At that time I read about this .425 Express Magnum and was fired up. At once my "how-to-get-hold-of-components" mill started to spin. Due to .300 Winchester brass, which was left by lots of hunting tourists, which seemed to love the fast burner, brass wouldn't be a problem feeding the 425. In one of the older hardware stores I had found a bulk of old and dusty Woodleigh bullets 400 Grain for the .404 Jeffrey, which has the bore diameter of .423.
To my luck, that was exactly the bullet, the .425 Express was eating too. So those 300 bullets changed the owner very quickly for a special rack cleaning price and made the final configuration. So I ordered a gun smith in Capetown, who was willing to do the job to built me that gun. An old but pristine action from WW I, a Mauser K98 signed 1908, from Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken BERLIN, made for Brasil, was transplanted smoothly as it feeded cartridges from the magazin into my project. Even so a barrel from USA and a "break-like-glas" Timney trigger.
Some month later I had my .425 Express Magnum with a fitty Safari walnut stock in my hands. RCBS had sended me allready the dies. All together for sure no bargain, but what a hell of fun. Here we go!!

Just one thing has to be said about this cartridge: Wow !!
The .425 Express Magnum fullfilled all my dreams about a bigbore rifle. Everything I shot at, didn't do anything more than collapsing in it's tracks. Buffalo, Giraffe, Hippo, Crocodile or even tiny bushbok or waterhole warthog, nothing went lost.
Reloading is easy, shooting is a pleasure, because it's no thumper and it kills like being hit with a big hammer. What a great gun, what a great cartridge.
The only thing I changed in my configuration was the use of new and branded brass.
I ordered them in big number new from a manufacturer in Germany.
In the upper thread You will find those " RO SCH .425 Expr." shells, which are out of my lot.

Now I still have quiet some brandnew .425 Express brass left, which I offer to all, who are, same as me, owner of gunnery fitted with this wonderfull cartridge.

If You need new and originally stamped brass for the .425 Express Magnum, please contact me. I'm sure, we come along concerning pricing.

Good hunting and always good wind

Roland

 

[Nevada Mike]

Firing a .423 caliber, 400 grain bullet at or about 2400 fps? Seems to duplicate the .404 Jeffery. I easily get 2400+ fps from loads in my 404 Jeff. Perhaps it was invented due to the availability of H&H magnum brass and the relative scarcity of .404 brass.

 

[TTundra]

Firing a .423 caliber, 400 grain bullet at or about 2400 fps? Seems to duplicate the .404 Jeffery. I easily get 2400+ fps from loads in my 404 Jeff. Perhaps it was invented due to the availability of H&H magnum brass and the relative scarcity of .404 brass.

From "Any Shot You Want", the good Colonel speaks of the 425 Express as a wildcat in the 80s from Hopkins who wanted a standard length -06/300 Win action size cartridge to make 2400FPS. The original 404 was 2100FPS(ish). 425 is less powder but at higher pressures,74 gr of 4895 got them 2400 but at 67kpsi. Not sure was a 404 needs to get 2400, but likely more powder but still at lower pressure?
However, with todays bullets and powder, there is a great deal of overlap Im sure

 

[Nevada Mike]

From "Any Shot You Want", the good Colonel speaks of the 425 Express as a wildcat in the 80s from Hopkins who wanted a standard length -06/300 Win action size cartridge to make 2400FPS. The original 404 was 2100FPS(ish). 425 is less powder but at higher pressures,74 gr of 4895 got them 2400 but at 67kpsi. Not sure was a 404 needs to get 2400, but likely more powder but still at lower pressure?
However, with todays bullets and powder, there is a great deal of overlap Im sure

I read the same thing. However MANY 404j rlfles were built on standard M98 actions, so the actual gain here is unclear. At least two of my loads tested during development were in excess of 2400 fps with 400 grain swift AFs - 80 grains of N-150 (2411 fps) and 83.5 grains of IMR4350 (2401 fps). I backed off to about 2250 fps... seemed like a good load - accurate and modest recoil. I have no pressure testing equipment so I cannot even speculate on that, but the 404 is a larger volume hull, intended to keep pressures down.

Still, I celebrate people who go to some lengths to make their ideas reality... and I expect they had fun developing the .425 Express cartridge.

 

[Rosch]

I read the same thing. However MANY 404j rlfles were built on standard M98 actions, so the actual gain here is unclear.

First, I wrote my story to contribute something positive to this forum and offer brass to somebody who's looking for, because it's really quiet scarce.
To built a .404 Jeffrey in a standard Mauser action means to grind immense amount of material away to give space for such a bulky cartridge as is. Doing something like this would weaken this perfect built and legendary stout action. Why should somebody in his senses do something like that ? There are also MANY people driving car when drunk. That doesn't mean that it's smart )

Getting 2400 fps out of a .404 Jeffrey means neglecting all kind of rules of reloading and Your own safety. I didn't say anything bad about the 404 at all. If You like it, buy it hug it and be happy. So please accept my view of the issue. Besides, the thread is named "425 Express?" not .404 Jeffrey.

 

[Nevada Mike]

First, I wrote my story to contribute something positive to this forum and offer brass to somebody who's looking for, because it's really quiet scarce.
To built a .404 Jeffrey in a standard Mauser action means to grind immense amount of material away to give space for such a bulky cartridge as is. Doing something like this would weaken this perfect built and legendary stout action. Why should somebody in his senses do something like that ? There are also MANY people driving car when drunk. That doesn't mean that it's smart )

Getting 2400 fps out of a .404 Jeffrey means neglecting all kind of rules of reloading and Your own safety. I didn't say anything bad about the 404 at all. If You like it, buy it hug it and be happy. So please accept my view of the issue. Besides, the thread is named "425 Express?" not .404 Jeffrey.

Please forgive me if I sounded argumentative. This was not my intention. I simply wished to point out that the .425 Express is little different to the 404 Jeffery in performance potential... same bullets, same velocities.

I did not suggest that a .404J should be built on a standard M98 action, but, historically, it was very commonly done by Jeffery, Cogswell and Harrison, BSA and others. A number of these rifles are still in service.

I would beg to differ on the subject of getting 2400 fps from a .404 Jeffery, but that is fodder for another discussion.

There is a 425 Express A Square rifle for sale at Sportsman's Legacy in Montana, right now - built on the P17/Remington M30 action by A Square.

 

[Rosch]

Jeffery, Cogswell & Harrison and many others were using the standard k98 action for lots of oversized cartridges, because they had no others! Not because of being a good idea. The for this lenght cartridges designed magnum version 98 was too expensive or just not available. These british gun smith firms wanted to jump on that train to sell as many guns as possible to the colonies. And the hunger for big game able armery was immense, no matter the high pricing. Reading Pondoro gives an idea, what was happening in these old days. I did my project the other way around and searched for a cartridge, which would feed flawless into my standard 98 action with easy bullet and brass support.. So for me the 404, 375, 416 and Co. didn't even had a chance for consideration! Besides, I had all of them but gave them willingly away again. My 425 Express is still with me cause she' s my favorite.

Thx for the hint with the A-square rifle at Sportsman. I have to admit, that I don't like the P17 action, even if it's a good action to modify. Art Alphin had good ideas and is in my opinion a real reformer.
He thought new ways in an old world, especially big game hunting, blowing the dust of that post colonial thinking.
His approaches to modern cartridge design, low recoil stock, bullet design and ammo and components avaibility was really amazing for me. I'm still baffled, why he went down with his business.
I will always remind his words, "...to keep bulletspeed around 2400fps for best results...". I never did neglect or regret that advice with my big bores.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Although I do not reload (not practical in Zim) I found this a very interesting thread. I had never heard of the .425 Express. As time goes by I find myself using my old, not very special .404J. Light to carry with modest recoil. Also it seems to get the job at hand taken care of. Does it hit as hard as my .416 Rigby or .470 Nitro, no!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Please forgive me if I sounded argumentative. This was not my intention. I simply wished to point out that the .425 Express is little different to the 404 Jeffery in performance potential... same bullets, same velocities.

I did not suggest that a .404J should be built on a standard M98 action, but, historically, it was very commonly done by Jeffery, Cogswell and Harrison, BSA and others. A number of these rifles are still in service.

I would beg to differ on the subject of getting 2400 fps from a .404 Jeffery, but that is fodder for another discussion.

There is a 425 Express A Square rifle for sale at Sportsman's Legacy in Montana, right now - built on the P17/Remington M30 action by A Square.

@Navada Mike
M17 my friend. Art Alpin got hold of all the M17s and P14s he could to build his big A square magnums. They were the only action big enough and strong enough to handle his cartridge. They lock up differently to the Mauser 98. The have a helical bolt lugs that lock up in the corresponding recesses like a bank vault.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I am considering building a 425 Express so thought I might revive this thread. As most of you know, I already successfully built a 404 Jeffery on 98 Mauser.

First, I think @Rosch has exaggerated the damage needed to convert a standard 98 Mauser into 404. Perhaps he is confusing with 375 and 416? I did not change the locking ring on my action, only the feeding ramp and rails. Also a small amount of metal removed from inside the rear ring so cartridges can clear for ejection (not too much or extractor will lose contact with track). None of that will compromise the strength of the receiver. Building 416R and 375 H&H does require trimming back some of the locking ring to expand the ejection port.

For me the attractions of 425 Express are manifold. The cases are belted with shoulder vs 404 beltless with almost no defined shoulder. Cases for the 404 must be very precisely sized or the cartridges will not snap over when dropped in the action. They will push ahead instead and get stuck in the chamber. Ask me how I know! This is never an issue with belted cartridges. And for any DGR snap over is essential, in my book anyway.

425 Express utilizes 404J bullets and 300 Win brass. Bullets are not terribly hard to find and brass is downright abundant.

425 Express can be gassed up to 416 Rigby plateau if desirable. I understand recoil is manageable if loads are not super fast and the gun has some weight. No real difference from 404 in that regard.

The chief downside of course is brass with the proper headstamp. It's out there but hard to find and expensive. How important is it? I've been to Africa four times and no one has yet looked at my ammo either going or returning. "Yep, there's two boxes in there. Sign on the dotted line. See ya." I suppose the worse that could happen is the ammo could get confiscated and I'd have to rent a rifle at the lodge. Actually, I think I'd just load up a dummy round or two to demonstrate that they fit the rifle if someone decides to get picky. Might be enough to convince them. Or just order a box of custom brass for Africa and use 300 Win cases at the range. A minor inconvenience.

I'm not sure what's involved in making belted brass feed properly from 98 Mauser magazine. Can't be too serious considering the popularity of 300WM in similar design CRF rifles (i.e. Model 70). However, I know I DO NOT want to tackle the feeding issues for rebated rim. That's why 425 Westley Richards is off the table.

And lastly, resale value would be a big question mark. I can liquidate my 404 fairly readily but moving a 425 Express would likely not be easy. I think it's a great cartridge with a lot of potential, but it is unknown. And it's not a "classic" British cartridge, having only been developed by a couple of American guys in the 1980s. And we all know how important it is for African hunters to be outfitted with classic British thumper guns (even if topped with an electronic scope ).

 

[Rosch]

resale value would be a big question mark. I can liquidate my 404 fairly readily but moving a 425 Express would likely not be easy.I think it's a great cartridge with a lot of potential, but it is unknown

Well, I never asked the gunsmith do me a job with the thought in mind, what is the reselling price of what I order? I normally do the thinking first and after that, I order, pay the price and keep it for lifetime.

You have mentioned all the arguments I had evenso when comming up with this .425 project.
While planing, the 416 Taylor was an option too, but .416 bullets weren't available in RSA, never mind any other classic brass or bullets. RSA was strictly sanctioned because of apartheid and You had to use what the gods offered You!
I had to deal with components, which were around, like 300 Win brass, .423 Bullets, K98 actions and a barrel in 0.423.
So .425 Express wasn't love on first sight and in the end a more logical thing, but we grew together, became best friends. I will keep this gun until my last shot has faded away!