.416 isn't grouping well!

[bruce moulds]

I had a sako and a ruger that would not group on a foolscap page at 100.
it was barrels.
but mostly you have to assume the rifle will shoot 3moa or better until you prove otherwise.
these big kickers take some mental effort to shoot tight groups with.
and remember, 1 good group proves nothing except that a thing called luck exists.
this is a game of statistics, and that requires bigger numbers for more meaning.
bruce.

 

[Philip Glass]

@njc110381

Did you shoot it at short range first? 25 yards...
Can you get a group at that range?

Yes I would advise shooting off bench at 50yds first.

 

[rookhawk]

Just got back from the range and my first attempt at setting up my .416 Rigby scope. It didn't go well! I fired a three shot group of approximately ten inches at 100 yards and am now left wondering what could be wrong?

I'm loading 410gr Woodleigh soft points over 90gr of RL22. A start load. Recoil isn't too bad, I'm comfortable shooting the gun and was expecting much better. Shots were taken off of quad sticks - I can shoot a fox at 300m off of those same sticks with a lesser rifle...

Is it likely that variations in hold of the rifle could cause such inaccuracy or should I be looking elsewhere for answers? All my stock screws are tight, and the scope mounts too. I haven't looked too much further than that so far but I'm hoping it's something simple! If it's me then great, I can work on that and fix it. But I don't think I've ever shot a group that large with anything! I'm a little concerned.

One bit of advice: NEVER shoot a 416 with a lead sled. If that has happened, the scope may be blown. The recoil cannot be stopped dead on a 416, it would die a horrible death just the same as if you put the butt against a brick wall and fired the gun. The recoil must be dissipated through your shoulder, preferably for you that its off of shooting sticks.

Other suggestions were very good as well, I just wanted to clarify and make sure that the gun wasn't shot off a lead sled ever?

 

[Dirtdart]

Forgive me if this should be in a different thread but I am going to put this here because of all the talk of rifle rest.
The range that is available to me has a very solid bench at 100 yards but nothing at any other distance. It is 1000 yards from my front door as the crow flies and very convenient being in the middle of a piece of private property. I have fired my fare share of .416 Remington, .416 Rigby, and .404 Jeffery loads. I start all of these cartridges out at 50 yards and if the PH says dead nuts at 50 for the game we are going to pursue then 50 it is. The rest pictured is made by KencoOutdoors and it is allows you to adjust it to a position that that is like firing naturally offhand and let your shoulder take the recoil but, VERY stable. If you can't get tight groups at 50 with this, it ain't your rest.
If the PH tells me dead nuts at 100 then it is off the bench at that distance. I find my lead sled to be more than satisfactory with the calibers mentioned off of the 100 yard bench, just don't add weight to the sled and it will give plenty with any 416.

 

[rookhawk]

Dirtdart's rest is excellent, it allows the recoil to go through the body of the shooter (making it very mild recoil) and gives a steady shot. This IS the way to sight in a magnum rifle. Also, his rifle has the premier scope for recoil management on it, a swaro z6 1-6x24 it appears. Therefore, he has his face down on the stock and in low rings so he isn't feeling the evil side of recoil. I assure you, a big 42mm scope in high rings mounted to a 416 and shot from a bench rest is enough gun to send any man crying from pain...Dirtdart's setup is "proper" and avoids all of these maladies. <- Do things like Dirtdart did.

P.S. - I hate lead sleds, even without weights in them. I've never seen a wild animal wait for you to erect a shooting bench to take a shot off of sand bags in my hunting career. If you can't shoot 2" groups off of sticks at 100 yards you're not going to get your kills in the wild on actual hunts! Bench rest range practice with all the long-range snipers gives you no preparation for using a 416 effectively under real hunting conditions. People pass up shots on elephants at 10 yards because the bush is too thick, yet we think bench shooting at 200 yards is the key ingredient for a safari?

Forgive me if this should be in a different thread but I am going to put this here because of all the talk of rifle rest.
The range that is available to me has a very solid bench at 100 yards but nothing at any other distance. It is 1000 yards from my front door as the crow flies and very convenient being in the middle of a piece of private property. I have fired my fare share of .416 Remington, .416 Rigby, and .404 Jeffery loads. I start all of these cartridges out at 50 yards and if the PH says dead nuts at 50 for the game we are going to pursue then 50 it is. The rest pictured is made by KencoOutdoors and it is allows you to adjust it to a position that that is like firing naturally offhand and let your shoulder take the recoil but, VERY stable. If you can't get tight groups at 50 with this, it ain't your rest.
If the PH tells me dead nuts at 100 then it is off the bench at that distance. I find my lead sled to be more than satisfactory with the calibers mentioned off of the 100 yard bench, just don't add weight to the sled and it will give plenty with any 416.
View attachment 288597

 

[Dirtdart]

My post was strictly about trying to achieve the best mechanical zero as possible.

Shooting in the field with what is available or not available is a different discussion entirely.
P.S.
The scope is a Swaro z8i 1-8 and I can't decide between it and my S&B Exos 1-8, it is dead even race at the moment.

 

[rookhawk]

The scope is a Swaro z8i 1-8 and I can't decide between it and my S&B Exos 1-8, it is dead even race at the moment.

Happy to help! Send me both and I'll verify which is better, sending you back the superior optic of the two!

The only S&B I have is a 1-4x straight tube model from maybe 15 years ago. I bought it for around $500 mint on eBay. My kids have it mounted on their youth .243 and it is ALL THE SCOPE you'd ever need for hunting out to 250 yards. My long term intention is to have Griffin & Howe put a side mount on my 416 rigby and I'll use that 1-4 S&B for that application eventually, buying the kids some other higher power optic as they get old enough to hunt past 250 yards.

When faced with the choice of either New S&B/Swaro on one side, or New Leupold / Vortex on the other, there is no comparison. If I'm feeling poor, I'd rather have used Leica/S&B/Swaro/Kahles/Zeiss rather than new Leupold/Vortex as well. I can't figure out a use case where I will ever buy another optic from Leupold/Vortex/BSA/Nightforce/Huskamaw/Sig/insert-heavily-TV-sponsored-brand-of-the-week option or other.

The shame about all these threads is that we spend 99% of the time debating optics, but only 1% of the time debating mounts. Mounts are so super important and the lowest mounts possible really matter a lot. Maybe some post will deviate into a mounts discussion and we can air out that equally important piece of the puzzle too.

 

[Dirtdart]

Rookhawk, I would not want to put my optics problems off on someone else as it is my burden to bear.
I do appreciate the offer
I sincerely hope that our friend that started this thread is able to get his .416 shooting to his complete satisfaction.
The lowest power of any scope (field of view) can be the most important but having more on the top end is a damn nice bonus at times. I do not want to start any shit as far as brands of optics since we all have our favorites.
Mounts are well deserving of a thread of their own no doubt.

 

[bruce moulds]

so what advantage does testing at 50 yds have other than actually getting on paper?

 

[Red Leg]

Dirtdart's rest is excellent, it allows the recoil to go through the body of the shooter (making it very mild recoil) and gives a steady shot. This IS the way to sight in a magnum rifle. Also, his rifle has the premier scope for recoil management on it, a swaro z6 1-6x24 it appears. Therefore, he has his face down on the stock and in low rings so he isn't feeling the evil side of recoil. I assure you, a big 42mm scope in high rings mounted to a 416 and shot from a bench rest is enough gun to send any man crying from pain...Dirtdart's setup is "proper" and avoids all of these maladies. <- Do things like Dirtdart did.

P.S. - I hate lead sleds, even without weights in them. I've never seen a wild animal wait for you to erect a shooting bench to take a shot off of sand bags in my hunting career. If you can't shoot 2" groups off of sticks at 100 yards you're not going to get your kills in the wild on actual hunts! Bench rest range practice with all the long-range snipers gives you no preparation for using a 416 effectively under real hunting conditions. People pass up shots on elephants at 10 yards because the bush is too thick, yet we think bench shooting at 200 yards is the key ingredient for a safari?

I love my lead sled. A lot. I am pretty sure I can shoot two and certainly three-inch groups all day off sticks with anything I own with a scope at 100 meters. But I like to shoot those groups around a MOA setting of which I am both certain and confident. A lead sled is the most efficient tool I have ever owned to dial in that MOA group. I have fired many hundreds if not thousands of rounds off mine over the last decade with everything from .22 hornet through .404 (many, many .375 rounds from fairly light rifles). I have never damaged a scope and never cracked a stock. They work exactly as advertised - at least in my experience. Most importantly to me, they help quickly establish that MOA group minimizing time on the bench. And with a misbehaving rifle it helps to focus attention on the likely culprit (If nothing else, by eliminating shooter issues).

It would be interesting to me to hear from someone who has actually damaged a rifle or scope with one. I have at least half a dozen acquaintances who use them regularly - two of whom load custom ammunition using client rifles as part of their businesses. No issues.

But with respect to our OP - I agree with @IvW and would shoot the rifle, from a rock solid rest (lead sled would be great ), over open sights, and see whether or not I have rifle problem. You should easily be able to keep three-five rounds into 2.5 to 3.5 inches at that range. I also agree with @One Day... that unless those rounds were loaded with a spoon, it is incomprehensible that ammunition was causing a 10 MOA problem. I had a bad bedding job on a rifle cause those sorts of issues once upon a time, but I would bet on scope, rings or mount as the most likely problem.

Or you could simply chuck this whole .40 cal thing and get an accurate, shootable .375!

 

[IvW]

so what advantage does testing at 50 yds have other than actually getting on paper?

Solving a problem is a process of elimination for me anyway....

So what do we have? A shooter, a rifle. scope mounts, a scope and ammunition.

Using a box of factory loaded ammunition eliminates the possible human error factor of self loaded ammunition. Using a chronograph will further confirm the consistency off the ammunition, especially if it is self loaded.

No point in continuing to shoot at 100 yards and achieving 10 inch groups.

Get an experienced buddy to help with the shooting @ 25 and then 50 yards.

1. Shooter-could well be a shooter error. Not everybody can handle the recoil of certain rifles/calibers, this is reality no matter how dearly such a person would want to own and shoot a bigger bore rifle. Many folks have issues with 375 H&H recoil. A .416 Rigby has more recoil and recoil velocity than the 375 H&H. 37.3 and 16.3 for the 375 H&H from a 9 pound rifle and 58.1 and 19.3 for the Rigby from a 10 pound rifle(404 is 41 and 16.1 which is why it has a reputation for being low in recoil when compared). Flinching will have you shooting all over the place. So getting 2.5" groups @ 25 and 5 inch groups @ 50 yards from 2 different shooters will show you that there is something wrong with either the rifle or the shooters, therefore you can look there to solve the problem. Not saying that the OP cannot handle the recoil but then eliminate that and move on.
2. Rifle-again if the shooters are both confident and competent with the recoil and their shooting ability, above groupings at 25 and 50 yards will again point to an issue with the rifle. I doubt that it is a bad barrel.
3. Scope mounts-removing the scope and mounts will eliminate this possibility.
4. Scope-see point 3.
5. Ammunition-yes unlikely that this is the issue. However for this simple test use factory ammo over a chrony and eliminate any ammo issues. Bigger bore rifles although not tack drivers should not be shooting that bad. They are also less prone, when compared to smaller high velocity cartridges to show bad accuracy due to some small issue with action screws etc. The screws need to be tight yes but tight is tight and should not have such a large effect on a 416 Rigby. Wrong powder(burn rate and load density), wrong primers(poor ignition in huge cartridges) etc. can all have a effect. Yes agreed 10 inches would be an exception. However combining for example low load density and poor ignition rate could mean 4 MOA ammo and add to that some flinching and you easily stretch that to 10 inches.

So use a box of 20 Factory ammo and two competent shooters and start with the basics and work up from there, that is what I would do anyway.

Good luck and hope you get it sorted.

 

[Shootist43]

Just Gina, I'm calling your attention to the post IvW just made re. recoil of the 404 Jeffery compared to the 375 H&H. Sorry for the intrusion guys. Njc, I hope you tale IvW's post to heart. It is almost identical to one of mine. This matter can be resolved by the process of elimination. I hope you are doing so on your next visit to the range.

 

[bruce moulds]

shoot it at 100 and be done with it.
25 is kidding yourself.
bruce.

 

[Shootist43]

Bruce I often agree with you, but in this case I respectfully disagree. Because the "normal" shooting distance for DG is under 50 yds. why would you want to zero for a hundred? I posted this question for my 416 Rigby and 404 Jeffery. After much input and deliberation, I zeroed both for 75 yards. In this case the suggested 25 and 50 yd. shots are part of the process of elimination, given the fact that the OP isn't a big fan of iron sights if I recall correctly. If neither he nor his buddy can get acceptable groups at those distances, the issue is most likely with the rifle.

 

[bruce moulds]

shootist 43,
I was discussing accuracy testing, not zeroing.
bruce.

 

[njc110381]

Or you could simply chuck this whole .40 cal thing and get an accurate, shootable .375!

Wash your mouth out with soap sir! How could you say such a thing?

I wasn't aware that a lead sled could break a scope? Either way this rifle has never been on a sled, just my quad sticks so plenty of freedom with recoil both for myself and the rifle/scope. That could partly be the issue.

I've bucked the opinion of using factory ammunition for now and loaded more myself. I will fall back on factory at a later date if me and this other chap can't get it to shoot with irons and off of a decent rest. My local shop has just bought in some .416 ammunition and is selling it at £150 for 20 rounds - £7.50 each. Ammunition may be a cause but it's one of the less likely issues. Until those other issues have been checked over with my home loads I really can't face throwing £300 down range to find out the mounts are shifting or that my friend can shoot it just fine!

First test at the range will be to shoot again with the scope now I've reset the mounts and marked their position, as well as the position of the scope. If that fails I will remove the scope and shoot with iron sights. I've been doing a lot of iron sight shooting with my .357 recently in an effort to hone those skills so I should be reasonable at it. If that fails I will take it to my friend's range and ask him to shoot it for me, then I will move on to other checks. Keep in mind that I've done very little with this rifle, it's early days. Now I know I can handle it standing I will shoot it from a bench, but I wasn't going to do that for my first shots as I didn't know what to expect.

I think working on the most likely but also cheapest to experiment checks first is a sensible move. I would be really surprised if my ammunition is at fault. The scope on the other hand has an issue with it's illumination and that could be my problem. It's high up the list of suspects!

 

[Dirtdart]

so what advantage does testing at 50 yds have other than actually getting on paper?

Solids for elephant

 

[Shootist43]

Njc, I going through this same problem with a new to me Winchester Mod 70 in 375 H&H and a 2.5 - 8 Leupold scope, i.e. terrible groups at 25 & 50 yds. I put new Warne QD rings and bases on the rifle. I loaded up 10 rounds of new Norma brass with some "blemished" Hornady DGX bullets thinking they would be ok for paper. I took my Caldwell shooting bags (front and rear) to the range. In all fairness I couldn't get a good alignment so I "cheated" a bit and moved up on the ears of the front bag. I'll take some wood spacers next time since sandbags made the front rest too high. I'm also going to take a Lead Sled with a couple of sandbags for weight to be used only if needed. Another change I made was to the powder charge. I weighed a fired case full of water to get an exact value to put into QuickLoad. The result was an additional gr. and a half of powder needed to be added to reach an accuracy node. This time I loaded up 25 rounds but I will also be taking some loads that a buddy of mine loaded up for his 375 H&H Mauser that I bought many years ago. That gun shoots sub MOA with those loads. Like you I hate having to spend a small fortune on ammo if I don't have to. If the above mentioned actions don't rectify the problem I'm taking off the scope and going to the irons. One other thing I did notice a mark on each one of the pieces of fired brass that went 360 degrees around the neck about 1/8 " down from the end of the case. I've never had or seen a Winchester with manufacturing issues but if this persists the rifle will be going to a gunsmith to see if the chamber needs a polishing reamer run through it. The rifle itself was pristine, if is was inaccurate, perhaps that is why the original owner got rid of it. More to follow after my next range trip. Hopefully you can see that I'm doing exactly what I suggested you do.

 

[TTundra]

One bit of advice: NEVER shoot a 416 with a lead sled. If that has happened, the scope may be blown. The recoil cannot be stopped dead on a 416, it would die a horrible death just the same as if you put the butt against a brick wall and fired the gun. The recoil must be dissipated through your shoulder, preferably for you that its off of shooting sticks.

Other suggestions were very good as well, I just wanted to clarify and make sure that the gun wasn't shot off a lead sled ever?

Ive used my lead sled with my 416 Rigby and a VX3 2.5-8. Haven't had any problems. Haven't seen a durable scope go down to one yet, but not to say that cant happen. Using one to make sure your rifle and scope are mechanically correct or 'perfect' is a great way to start preparation for your practice in more hunting type situations. Its also an easy way to diagnose certain problems.

Side note, Ive seen first hand the machine that Leupold uses to test scopes, both theirs and others. Ive seen the premium mentioned scopes in this thread fail and VX3's pass....same extreme forces. Ive also seen some scopes lenses blow out that make you shutter.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Before returning to the range, I would make sure it is not coppered up. It just may be loaded up from the initial shots. Use J.B. Bore Paster or Iosso. If you have or can get access to a borescope, check it first, then after cleaning. You may get a surprise.