404 jeffery vs 416 Rigby

[IvW]

Yes, quality bullets are fine in big bores these days.

Of course, 6000 foot-pounds is easy for a 416Rigby. The impala shown in my post above was that way.
Here is a shot of sighting-in a rifle in the bush, over the bonnet/hood of a vehicle. Before my son and I went out walking and looking for an impala we sighted-in the rifle. I took one shot. Then my son took one shot with the same rifle.

We walked down a hundred yards to inspect the shots.

Well, that is good to go for a hunt. The bullet holes were kissing, though the rough edges don't show that. I dropped the Nikon two clicks for a lower trajectory. The scope tracks well. I don't like bullets rising over 3".

But more to the point, the Rigby handles those loads smooth as silk. The bullet in the same post with the impala picture shows the case with a nice primer and no brass marks on the case head. When cases slide right out they don't have pressure marks. Here is a another supporting picture for this post. It is a bullet from a buffalo, taken with the 416 Rigby at 110 yards. We had already bumped them twice and were able to find the bull grazing in the shadows. The Rigby did the job. An accurate rifle made that shot reliable. the picture shows all the cases used. The first shot, 416, made the buffalo sick, but we found him on his feet standing in a grass patch watching his back trail. I put a second into him from the side, parallelizing much of his body but leaving his head and neck thrashing. My son jumped forward with a 338 and put a bullet behind the head for lights out.

Look carefully at the primers of the Rigby cases on the left. Nice. The 338 may be a tad hotter, a 225TTSX at 2835fps, but still smooth easy bolt lift and reasonable primers. We load to the old book levels of 4000ft#. The 338WM is a light Tikka and is probably as heavy a load as that action should have.

In a modern rifle like a CZ, with modern cases like Hornady, and stable powders like R-17, and a great bullet like the 350gn TTSX, there is no reason not to load up to about 6000ft# (probably just under 60k psi.) Our last three Rigbys have all handled these loads like nobody's business.

That is great and from the target it is quite clear that both you and your son can handle the pressure and the recoil with this load. This is a good combination for the initial shot and also makes for a more versatile application for a client.

Personally I do not like lighter bullets in big bores and especially not for DG.

There seems to always be two schools of thought on this, the high velocity light bullet group and then the old school heavy for caliber at respectable velocity group.

Having to sort out the mess when things go wrong, often at extremely short range, I fall in the latter old school group.

If I owned a 416 Rigby, I would load 410 gr or even better 450 gr bullets @ 2200-2300 fps.

It is bullet momentum and straight line penetration from a premium grade bullet fired at respectable velocity that sorts out the nasties at close range rather than high velocity and foot pounds.

I have used such combinations too many times, with great success when the chips are down and do not see the need to change to lighter bullets.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

cmk, good to hear from you . It is Stewart core bonded bullets Hansie Minnaar ( owner of this brand) make for me. He draw any brass for any caliber. even obsolete calibers as well, any diameter bullet core bonded as well..at this stage I only hunt with Stewarts core bonded bullets..it served me well the last hunting season, I still need to retrieve one of these bullets , they all pass through ....I will make a frontal shot on a blue wildebees bull this coming hunting season to be able to retrieve a bullet....Dr. Kevin Robertson believe the ultimate buffalo killer combination is a 404 Jeffery shooting a 450gn bullet ...according to him it beats even larger bore calibers when comparing penetration tests......I am reloading 400 gn Stewart core bonded bullets currently..if I get a chance to hunt a buffalo I will use a 450 gn bullet from my 404 Jeffery... Keep in mind it is only the Walter barrels we noticed this phenomenon of the .419 " bore diameter on the 404 Jeffery barrels...

cmk, yes it is a Walter barrel, ..
Here is an email I send to Walter company,
Hallo Andreas

Andreas, we used a Walter barrel purchased from your company to build a 404 Jeffery for a client. Shortly after completing the build the client started to shoot the rifle. He then phoned us and said he gets a lot of pressure even when he reload a medium load. We asked him to slug the barrel , it measured .418" diameter...I always thought Walter barrels for the 404 Jeffery measure .423"? Please let me know if this is possible..since then we measured two more Walter barrels in the 404 Jeffery caliber in the shop by slugging them and they measured .418 " as well???


I would like to hear from you regarding this scenario.


Regards


Gert Odendaal

South Africa

Reply from Andreas:
Good morning Gert,

our .404 Jeffery barrels should have bore-/groove-Ø 10,46mm/10,77mm or 10,45/10,75.

We do not have any barrels with 10,61mm (.418). Could you check what caliber has been ordered back then?
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Sincerely Yours

LOTHAR WALTHER
Feinwerkzeugbau GmbH
Andreas Missler
At the end of the day I really do not care if it is a .419 " barrel I have, it shoots incredibly accurate and hit like Thor`s hammer on game... It was just a phenomenon we encounter in the gun smith shop...

I thought I'd jump in here with a comment on 404 barrel dimensions. I recently ordered a barrel from Krieger for my 404 Jeff conversion project with a Win Mod 70, currently in 300 RUM. Krieger's data is a bore dimension of 0.413" and a Groove dimension of 0.424" with a 1-16 twist rate.

 

[Rule 303]

Me personally would double check there isn't a typo there. Groves that are .011 deep and the grove diameter is spot on, seem to me, to be very deep.

 

[geoff rath]

This is a truly fascination thread; I could read, and re-read it multiple times. Fascinating stuff.
We're looking at two cartridges (mainly) and the paper/data is danged close... one factor I have discovered,
Norma load 450 grain Woodleigh projectiles for both cartridges, with M/Vs an oompteenth apart. Should I have only one choice (of caliber) for D/G, I suspect either would keep me happy (and SAFE).
Am I being too presumptuous?

 

[Rule 303]

This is a truly fascination thread; I could read, and re-read it multiple times. Fascinating stuff.
We're looking at two cartridges (mainly) and the paper/data is danged close... one factor I have discovered,
Norma load 450 grain Woodleigh projectiles for both cartridges, with M/Vs an oompteenth apart. Should I have only one choice (of caliber) for D/G, I suspect either would keep me happy (and SAFE).
Am I being too presumptuous?

No

 

[RayAtkinson]

Both calibers if loaded to max in a good Mauser or mod. 70 in tests on my chronograph show the 400 gr. bullet in the 416 Rigby can be pushed to 2700 FPS ,max and the 404 to 2600 FPS max. and I know folks that do that..but 99% of Americans are still quoting 1850s balistics..Keep in mind the 416 Rigby is a 416 Weatherby with the rim turned off..but both have almost the same powder volume.

Today I would, and did for years load both at 2350 to 2400 fps and both are equal. This can be done easily with IMR-4831.. I much prefer the 404 due to his smaller size in the rifle itself as the 416 Rigby must use a big heavy magnum mauser action and most of them weigh a couple of pound more and are cumbersome IMO..Even the 404 on magnum actions seem to be much smaller..at any rate Ive never been a 416 Rigby fan...and no need to use those max loads I mention, they are hard on most bullets t boot..

 

[Paul Homsy]

I like the reference to 1850s ballistics, where can I buy the manual ?

 

[bebo]

Hello,
What is the interest to boost these ammos?
My preference : .416 Rem Mag...

 

[spike.t]

Both calibers if loaded to max in a good Mauser or mod. 70 in tests on my chronograph show the 400 gr. bullet in the 416 Rigby can be pushed to 2700 FPS ,max and the 404 to 2600 FPS max. and I know folks that do that..but 99% of Americans are still quoting 1850s balistics..Keep in mind the 416 Rigby is a 416 Weatherby with the rim turned off..but both have almost the same powder volume.

Today I would, and did for years load both at 2350 to 2400 fps and both are equal. This can be done easily with IMR-4831.. I much prefer the 404 due to his smaller size in the rifle itself as the 416 Rigby must use a big heavy magnum mauser action and most of them weigh a couple of pound more and are cumbersome IMO..Even the 404 on magnum actions seem to be much smaller..at any rate Ive never been a 416 Rigby fan...and no need to use those max loads I mention, they are hard on most bullets t boot..

Ray not to be picky but the Rigby isnt a weatherby with the rim turned off...the weatherby is a Rigby that an American with a speed fetish put a belt on.....and have had a few rigby rigbys that were anything but cumbersome, as I dont like heavy rifles....have a 404 as well....and as I have said with factory loads I cant tell any difference in recoil between them.....

 

[Cervus elaphus]

Balistically true, however we must take into consideration that the original success these cartridges achieved was with velocities off 2150 to 2300fps.This is the velocity which made give them their good reputation on large and/or dangerous game.Ruark and Selby made the Rigby nostalgic and the Jeffrey got its reputation from the various game departments.This all being said I still prefer the lower recoil and bigger diameter off the Jeffrey. In field situations though you will not notice the difference in performance.

I'm sure the animal at the receiving end doesn't notice the difference either. This is the bigger bore of the .423 v the faster bullet of the .416 . Comparing the energy created. Using the 400gr Swift A-Frame, the .416 has 314fp more energy at the muzzle. Either caliber will do the job so it comes down to personal preference and I would be happy to carry either for big game. The bullet range for the .404j has certainly improved since the old days; now from the Cutting Edge 257gr Raptor to Norma's African PH 450gr.

 

[geoff rath]

I like the reference to 1850s ballistics, where can I buy the manual ?

Interesting point, considering BOTH cartridges were developed/released around 1910/1911. if we check Woodleigh's manual, they advise sticking to recommended load data; the bullets they produce aren't designed to be run much faster ...

 

[geoff rath]

Hello,
What is the interest to boost these ammos?
My preference : .416 Rem Mag...

Just consider their respective operating chamber pressures; I suspect chamber pressure is a major factor in perceived recoil; both the 404 and 416 Rigby operate in the high forties/low fifties range; both the Remington and Weatherby are much higher...

 

[Opposite Pole]

I would think velocity and total moving mass (including powder) would matter far more than pressure to the perceived recoil. I can definitely feel the difference between 165gr and 180gr projectile fired from 308Win.

 

[Daga Boy]

Interesting thread. I am not a big fan of the .416 Rigby as there is no need for such a big case with modern propellants, and the rifles are indeed typically quite a bit bigger than the average .404. - much the same as 375H&H vs 9,3 x 62 or .375 Ruger.
ITO felt recoil, stock design and overall weight would be the major determinant. Rifles that are light for calibre kick like mules , but a heavier rifle in the same calibre can be quite tame.

 

[Rule 303]

Both calibers if loaded to max in a good Mauser or mod. 70 in tests on my chronograph show the 400 gr. bullet in the 416 Rigby can be pushed to 2700 FPS ,max and the 404 to 2600 FPS max. and I know folks that do that..but 99% of Americans are still quoting 1850s balistics..Keep in mind the 416 Rigby is a 416 Weatherby with the rim turned off..but both have almost the same powder volume.

Today I would, and did for years load both at 2350 to 2400 fps and both are equal. This can be done easily with IMR-4831.. I much prefer the 404 due to his smaller size in the rifle itself as the 416 Rigby must use a big heavy magnum mauser action and most of them weigh a couple of pound more and are cumbersome IMO..Even the 404 on magnum actions seem to be much smaller..at any rate Ive never been a 416 Rigby fan...and no need to use those max loads I mention, they are hard on most bullets t boot..

Ray throw the IMR4831 (AR2213SC) out. Use IMR4350 (AR2209) in the Rigby. Less powder for same velocity and the felt recoil is noticeably gentler, that is not as sharp or hard. Can't speak for the 404J.

 

[Rule 303]

Interesting thread. I am not a big fan of the .416 Rigby as there is no need for such a big case with modern propellants, and the rifles are indeed typically quite a bit bigger than the average .404. - much the same as 375H&H vs 9,3 x 62 or .375 Ruger.
ITO felt recoil, stock design and overall weight would be the major determinant. Rifles that are light for calibre kick like mules , but a heavier rifle in the same calibre can be quite tame.

Fair comparison when the stocks are the same design, size and material. You can have a far lighter rifle give less felt recoil if the fit is better or the stock material is more forgiving. Hard won experience.

 

[geoff rath]

No

Fair comparison when the stocks are the same design, size and material. You can have a far lighter rifle give less felt recoil if the fit is better or the stock material is more forgiving. Hard won experience.

stock fit would have to be the prime factor in perceived recoil; I've played the game with several rifles in matching calibers, some fitted me well, others were a nightmare ...

 

[Accidental Villain]

When you arrive at camp 02.00 AM,,have a beer to clear your throat,,adrenaline is in the red and you notice a faint wiff of elephant from your clothes,,,then a slightly blue shoulder is a bonus, who cares about stock fit

 

[Cervus elaphus]

When you arrive at camp 02.00 AM,,have a beer to clear your throat,,adrenaline is in the red and you notice a faint wiff of elephant from your clothes,,,then a slightly blue shoulder is a bonus, who cares about stock fit

Funny that. I could never seem to remember a sore shoulder from my 30-06 after a kill. The rifle kicked like a mule on bones with not a lot of meat on them. The only time I flinched was a couple of practice shots at the rifle range. Why a 30-06 for a racing sardine (then) like me rather than a 7mm-08? two reasons, firstly Rex Handcock and I travelled down from Auckland NZ to Mercer to see Norman Douglas (creator of the Douglas score). He was tanning some African plains game skins on his farm, his son Roger was away at college learning Rogernomics (Lange Govt). Norman praised the 30-06 to high hell as the best all-round rifle. Secondly, I thought there might be a chance of a shot at a Wapiti (Elk) down in Fiordland either privately or with the NZDA. Watched a video on youtube recently of a 15yr old Swedish girl running and shooting a .450 Rigby in a competition - puts recoil into perspective. (Still wish I got the BSA 7mm-08 instead)

 

[machinistbutler]

I like the reference to 1850s ballistics, where can I buy the manual ?

Ray bought the manual new. He may still have a copy.