.404 JEFFERY - A Professional Hunter point of view

[Pondoro]

When a client shows up in camp with a .458 Win Mag, you know that most likely the only experience the hunter has had is reading the pages of Outdoor Life magazine, probably 30-year-old editions.

Really....and what will the .404 Jeff. do that a .458Win. will not do..?

Asks Richard Harland of Zimbabwe how many elephant he shot with it..

 

[Rule 303]

Really....and what will the .404 Jeff. do that a .458Win. will not do..?

Asks Richard Harland of Zimbabwe how many elephant he shot with it..

Me thinks you have missed the point that was being made by the author of those words. Commenting on what the most likely outlook of the rifles owner is not on the capabilities of the rounds.

 

[Rob404]

Well it's done, The Donor Rifle as been Purchased and will be shipped to the Smith for the re-barrel to 404 jeff, The GS has been doing the Factory re-barrel for CZ since 2004,

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Really....and what will the .404 Jeff. do that a .458Win. will not do..?

Asks Richard Harland of Zimbabwe how many elephant he shot with it..

Pondoro
It is good to see someone say something positive about the standard .458 Win Mag of today...everybody using a .458 Win Mag usually convert to the .458 Lott usually..remarks about the absoluteness of the .458 Win Mag as a caliber....is made in discussions about the .458 Win Mag...
Regarding Richard Harland who uses the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer ...he used this rifle since it has a rotary magazine making it better than any Mauser action /more reliable in feeding when culling/killing elephant and buffalo... the 404 Jeffery is a brilliant caliber with a great history.....the .458 Win Mag is a larger caliber......423 versus .458.....400gn versus 500 gn....

Taking in the account trend of this thread , the 404 Jeffery as mentioned in the intro brings back long gone times where great hunting have been done with this old stalwart caliber..high praises have been sung and I think the echos are still ringing through our times ...that is why everybody is in search of a 404 Jeffery....I have been fortunate to get hold of one..and I am after another really old and original one that I can purchase from a person .....to have two 404 Jeffery rifles will be quite something...

Here is a discussion /opinion in this regards:

Those models of M-S were great rifles in my opinion, with probably the smoothest bolt action of its day, maybe still is? Main reason being that the bolt handle is mid-way along the bolt instead of being at the rear end like most. The loading and the rotary magazine system is also really good and smooth. The four round capacity was great, so with one in the chamber, five shots was exactly what I needed when tackling whole herds, on my own. The barrel was a bit long but I just got used that!


I shot many hundreds of elephants with that rifle, and other animals like buffalo, lion, impala, warthog, baboon!!


Much controversy has surrounded the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge since its appearance in 1958, and there were definitely serious problems with some of the early ammo – powder loadings were erratic and not up to the correct velocity. This are no longer the problem and anyway, I reload and chronograph my ammo so it is performing to specs. The bullets have always been extremely good and out of dozens I have recovered from elephants and buffalo, very few are distorted at all. The thick steel jacket is very strong.

There is no difference in killing ‘power’ or effectiveness between the ..465, ..470, .458, .450, .450 No.2, .475 etc. cartridges.


I was a game ranger in Rhodesia. First I started as an Honorary Officer of the Department of Wild Life at the age of 17, hunted crop raiding elephants and sold ivory to pay for my first Land Rover, my BSA .458 rifle.

Kind regards,

Richard.

 

[Pondoro]

Gert, both cartridges are no doubt very good.....the .404 with modern loads is on par with the .416 Rigby. Perhaps the slightly larger calibre is a plus for the .458Win.....or perhaps that is purely academic....and perhaps the .404 penetrate somewhat better..

I would not hesitate to hunt DG with any of them, I shot 2 elephants with a .458Win. last june.

Anyway, it is possible to load the .458 to 2050 - 2100fps with a 500 grain bullett today. That is .450 NE ballistics....a round that has been the benchmark for elephant etc. since 1898 or thereabouts..

 

[Bruce]

Each to his own... and every PH that I have as a friend or who have hunted with has a DIFFERENT opinion on all of this.
I listened to the old stories, read articles from the older magazines etc and made a big mistake many years ago when living in Zambia and NOT buying a 458WM that came up for sale at a very reasonable price. I hunted buffalo, lion, leopard , hippo, crocodile and various antelope with my trusty 375 H & H magnums...I own two amongst many other smaller calibre rifles.
Years later, I got wiser and bought myself a brand new 458 WM and have not regretted it for one minute. My ONLY proviso with this, and my 375's as well by the way, is to use the BEST bullets available, both in SOFT and SOLID points.
My 458 has many ONE shot kills on buffalo ( my sons also shoot buffalo with it) , a lion and also 2 x elephant.
I am off to Zim in February next year for buffalo and elephant and all I take along is the 458 and one of the 375's......

Keep it going DOC... maybe we can meet up for a beer in RSA some time and swap hunting stories etc...?? I live in Cape Town mostly.

 

[Rob404]

I find this topic to be real learning experience from Men who live and breath Africa, As a one time African hunter I just can't get enough, I am a bit of an old school nostalgia freak in most things ( Cars, Rifles and Pistols and of course Analog Audio Gear), thats why I own a 375HH that I would not ever part with and the reason I wanted another Classic old school Caliber 404. To enjoy along with my other Classic medium and small bores .
Since the 404 hasn't reached the build stage yet, do you guys have any thought as to barrel length. This will be a DG Rifle only. I gave a Mannlicher stock a Lot of thought but think that may be to short

 

[Pondoro]

Rob44...you are indeed in good company..

African hunting reeks from nostalgia, Mannlichers, Mausers, double rifles...canvas hats and safari jackets....and G/T of course..

My last toy is a 100+ year old english double in .475 NE....cant wait to hunt elephant with it..

 

[Rob404]

Rob44...you are indeed in good company..

African hunting reeks from nostalgia, Mannlichers, Mausers, double rifles...canvas hats and safari jackets....and G/T of course..

My last toy is a 100+ year old english double in .475 NE....cant wait to hunt elephant with it..

A 100 year old English double, if Wood and Steel could only talk

 

[Velo Dog]

I find this topic to be real learning experience from Men who live and breath Africa, As a one time African hunter I just can't get enough, I am a bit of an old school nostalgia freak in most things ( Cars, Rifles and Pistols and of course Analog Audio Gear), thats why I own a 375HH that I would not ever part with and the reason I wanted another Classic old school Caliber 404. To enjoy along with my other Classic medium and small bores .
Since the 404 hasn't reached the build stage yet, do you guys have any thought as to barrel length. This will be a DG Rifle only. I gave a Mannlicher stock a Lot of thought but think that may be to short

Not sure of your physical characteristics but, I'm about 6 ft (not so thin any more either heh heh) and minimum 23 inches to maximum 24 inches is about right for me with bolt action rifles (about 26 inches with doubles and single shots).
Barrel length is a personal taste thing but keep in mind that if you decide to sell it one day that "The shorter the barrel, the lower the price".
If you cut it extremely short 18 or 20 inches, many potential buyers (myself included) will only pay what the action and stock are worth.

 

[Rob404]

Not sure of your physical characteristics but, I'm about 6 ft (not so thin any more either heh heh) and minimum 23 inches to maximum 24 inches is about right for me with bolt action rifles (about 26 inches with doubles and single shots).
Barrel length is a personal taste thing but keep in mind that if you decide to sell it one day that "The shorter the barrel, the lower the price".
If you cut it extremely short 18 or 20 inches, many potential buyers (myself included) will only pay what the action and stock are worth.

I'll most likely let my Smith decide I comfortable with 24" but I understand CZ Factory is just short of 26"

 

[Velo Dog]

I'll most likely let my Smith decide I comfortable with 24" but I understand CZ Factory is just short of 26"

CZ claims 25" on most of their full size rifles but, I have not put a tape measure on one.
I do own several of them and can say that they were a bit too long for my taste personally.
So, I have had one of them cut to 23" (.458 Lott) and one to 24" (.416 Rigby).
While I was at it, I had the Gunsmith put on front sights to my liking (not that there is anything wrong with the CZ front sight but, a custom front sight adds a bit of eye appeal IMO.

 

[Velo Dog]

CZ claims 25" on most of their full size rifles but, I have not put a tape measure on one.
I do own several of them and can say that they were a bit too long for my taste personally.
So, I have had one of them cut to 23" (.458 Lott) and one to 24" (.416 Rigby).
While I was at it, I had the Gunsmith put on front sights to my liking (not that there is anything wrong with the CZ front sight but, a custom front sight adds a bit of eye appeal IMO.

Actually, the Lott I have is a custom barrel on a CZ action, and not a CZ barrel at all but, the barrel nonetheless is 23" so, the rifle handles both handles well for fast work and yet still has enough sight radius to remain accurate should I decide to take a poke at some smaller critter with it.
Perhaps I should also mention that I have a 1980's vintage Brno Model 602 (sort of the forerunner of today's CZ 550 Magnum), in .375 H&H with the unaltered factory 25" barrel still on it.
And, it is so very accurate that I cannot bring myself to have it cut for fear that any such alteration might "break the magic".
So, that one shall remain as issued from the factory, however just slightly long that it may be.

 

[Bruce]

Yip... I also have one of those vintage BRNO 602 in 375 H & H and it is still hellish accurate.
The barrel had become silver and the stock so worn that the chequering was non existent... I finally HAD to get the steel re -blued and fitted a new BRNO stock... the rifle looks brand new and still shoots like hell!!

 

[Velo Dog]

Yip... I also have one of those vintage BRNO 602 in 375 H & H and it is still hellish accurate.
The barrel had become silver and the stock so worn that the chequering was non existent... I finally HAD to get the steel re -blued and fitted a new BRNO stock... the rifle looks brand new and still shoots like hell!!

I don't like the rakish looking stock on mine (looks like something from the Disco Era or from 1960's Weatherby, etc.)
Is your new stock the earlier plain model with no cheek piece or the one with rollover cheek piece and slanted rosewood for end tip ? (like mine is).
I'd like to buy one of the earlier model stocks for my 602 or, a re-production shaped in the style of early Nitro British Mausers to fit it.

 

[Bruce]

I don't like the rakish looking stock on mine (looks like something from the Disco Era or from 1960's Weatherby, etc.)
Is your new stock the earlier plain model with no cheek piece or the one with rollover cheek piece and slanted rosewood for end tip ? (like mine is).
I'd like to buy one of the earlier model stocks for my 602 or, a re-production shaped in the style of early Nitro British Mausers to fit it.

I have the STANDARD stock with NO cheek piece... I shoot left handed and my 2 x sons. shoot right handed, so cheek pieces are out. I will send a foto later

 

[Pondoro]

I have two of those original ZKK 602s , one is a .375H&H with original 25" barrel, action honed and polished and a restock that makes it fit me like a glove.

And yes, it is superbly accurate, shoots more or less to the same spot no matter what bullet.

The other is a .458Win., 25" original barrel, restocked, safety converted to M70 with a Leupold 1-4x scope....also superbly accurate with 500 grain solids and 400 grain swifts.

That .458 penetrated 97 and 100cm in 2 by 8" stacked pinewood with Federal factory ammo with 500 Woodleigh solids...distance 20m...(my crono didnt work that day so no velocity measured..)

In comparison my 475NE double (23" barrels) penetrated 95-97cm at the same distance with Kynoch factory ammo, 480 grain Woodleigh solids...average of 2158fps velocity..

Woodleighs from both rifles showed no deformation whatever..

Sooo... the rumours that modern .458Win. is not up to it is IMHO bollocks with todays loads and bullets.

 

[Bruce]

GOOD on ya... I love my 458 WM and will never convert it to LOTT etc.

 

[spike.t]

thought this was about the venerable .404 and not a promotional thread for the johnny come lately .458.........

 

[Gert Odendaal]

It makes a person think: the venerable 404 Jeffery is still in a league of it`s own ...extremely sought after by all who owns a .458 caliber or even a .500 caliber...