400 Whelen

[fourfive8]

Whelen originally designed it with a 458 shoulder from cylinder brass. The 400 Whelen has no problems.

People who incorrectly chamber and load using 30-06 brass, caused the problems, and those myths still persist.

Use the right chamber, use the right brass, you'll have NO issues with headspace

That's interesting. So you are saying Whelen used a 458 WM as the parent cartridge? Or a cylinder parent case with the base body diameter of the 458 WM (standard mag base dia of .513") with or without a belt, necked it down and called it a 400 Whelen? Or what?- lost me I guess. In that case it is simply a 400-458 or something? ... then yes obviously no headspace issue.

When you say 458 shoulder- what does that mean? If it means .458" as the shoulder diameter, the official specs I have for the 400 Whelen using the 30-06 parent case show a shoulder diameter of .462" which provides even a greater shoulder than the .458". The neck diameter shown is .436" with a .405" bullet or .441" with a 410" bullet. No matter really as either shoulder (or bullet) simply doesn't provide sufficient shoulder for positive head spacing.

The specs I have for the 35 Whelen, 375 Whelen and 400 Whelen all use the same parent case- the 30-06. Is there a SAAMI chamber spec you could show for a reamer for a correct "400 Whelen" if one were to order such a custom rifle to be built? And exactly what brass is used if one were to build a correct "400 Whelen" rifle then load for it?

Don't get me wrong, I think, for example, if you wildcatted a 458 WM into a 400 cal (actually 410?), it'd be a good cartridge. But maybe a little too tight a niche given the 416 Taylor is close and already established.

 

[sestoppelman]

First of all I was responding to another post, not yours, who was amazed that the Whelen could equal the .450/400. It cant all things being equal. The 400 will be at red faced max to do 2100 and the .450/400 snoring.
That was my only point. Not trying to beat up on the .400 Whelen, have thought about one myself a time or two but really have no need of one.
Just trying to dissuade this notion that the .400 W is equal to the .450/400 cause it aint. That satisfy you? I wasn't trying to be contentious.

 

[Milehighshooter]

@fourfive8

Not the 458 Win (that wasn't invented until several decades later).

There are no SAAMI specs, it's still a wildcat. The original 400 used cylinder brass brass necked down, not 30-06 necked up. Its not a direct descendant of the 30-06. Some guys DO use 06 brass but they have to do several neck expansions, including up to 416 to neck back down to .410 to create a false shoulder. It also comes out short. The brass OAL is the same as the 270 and 35 W.

If you want to build one, its crucial the gunsmith uses either the Petrov or G&H reamer. These are correct and orginal. Michael Petrov did a long study before he passed, iirc on the Col's actual Griffith & Howe 1903.

Brass is easy, Quality Cartridge sells 400 Whelen head stamped cylinder brass abs CH4D has the proper dies. The guy who built mine has three correct reamer and he sells .410" Douglas barrels for a very reasonable price

 

[steve white]

but dies it have enough shoulder?

 

[Rick Cox]

OK, I'm flat out envious. I have a customized 1903 in 30-06. I should do this with it, as I am not using the '06 as is.

 

[Milehighshooter]

@sestoppelman

Sorry for the misinterpretation

 

[Milehighshooter]

but dies it have enough shoulder?

Yes, its a pretty sharp shoulder. It was an improved shoulder before people started improving shoulders haha

 

[Milehighshooter]

OK, I'm flat out envious. I have a customized 1903 in 30-06. I should do this with it, as I am not using the '06 as is.

I keep debating building another, but with walnut and open sights with my extra 1903. I went with the M70 because 1, I wasn't using it and it was on hand and 2, parts like stocks, mounts, etc, were just easier to come by.

I don't need 2 400 Whelens, but I prefer having at least 2 guns in any given caliber, not necessarily cartridge, but caliber for sure. My thoughts are it may make trying bullets out easier, say I want to try 250 gr 375 A-Frames, my H&H may not shoot it well, but I still have another H&H or 376 Steyr to try that bullet in.

 

[sestoppelman]

@sestoppelman

Sorry for the misinterpretation

No worries, enjoy the Whelen!

 

[bruce moulds]

30/06 saami pressures are lower than 270 win, and as such have a good safety margin.
albeit more than the 450/400, but clearly safe.
this is also a grey area with the 405 win case loaded with heavy bullets and upped pressure.
bruce.

 

[sestoppelman]

I once did an article for Gun World doing just that. Was able to safely match .450/400 velocities with 400 gr bullets in a Ruger No.1. The .405 case holds just slightly more than the .400 Whelen according to the Manual of Cartridge Conversions.
SAAMI pressures mostly apply to factory ammunition as 99 percent of handloaders have no access to pressure testing equipment. Sort of moot really.
That SAAMI gives numbers to follow does not mean that most rounds cannot be loaded to similar pressures, especially like the .270/'06 comparison. It mostly depends on the platform in use. Pressures for the .405 Win were developed for primarily lever actions, like the Win 1895, (for which it was developed) which is a pretty strong action, but the same round in a stronger rifle can be run up somewhat more in performance. Its uncharted territory for some, but careful attention to pressure signs can usually keep most out of trouble.
400 grs at 2150 in a Ruger No.1 .405 Win gets your attention.

 

[Milehighshooter]

Well, there IS a guy on another forum who is likely running 270 Win to modern belted mag pressure claiming 2250 (and i have no reason to doubt him) experimenting with some more modern 223 powders. Most of the guys running 400's are using 4895. I really need to buy QL and play with some powder options.

 

[sestoppelman]

With the Whelen or the .405? That's moving right out.
I would have to go find my article, but I seem to remember that 4895 worked well, but in my 1895 I have had the best luck overall with Varget using 300 gr bullets, but I was not trying to go over factory specs.

 

[Milehighshooter]

Whelen

 

[lwaters]

I have to admit I like all the calibers based on the 30-06 case. The belted mags. don't have much on them.

 

[Ed McGraw]

I have a 400 Whelen. My avatar shows 2, 100 yard groups. The three in the X rings were made after a sight adjustment. That is a 400 grain cast bullet. I don't know how fast the bullets is traveling. I think the 400 Whelen is the wildest of all the wildcats. Over the years it has been made right, wrong and everything in between. I haven't had any problems with head spacing. The shoulder of fired cases measures .457. The bore of my rifle has a diameter of .400 and grooves of .410 with a 1 in 18 twist. I form my cases from Military 30-06 brass. I like them because they are heavier than commercial brass. After forming them I trim them to 2.47 in length. My favorite load so far is that 400 grain cast bullet with 52 grains of IMR 4064 (remember this is safe in my rifle, it may not be in your so work up to it). Pretty sure I could go hotter but this load provides about all the recoil I care to deal with. How does it compare to the 405 Winchester? I'm going to say with 300 grain bullets it is pretty much even but there again I have never seen the 405 loaded with a 400 grain bullet so the win goes to the Whelen.

Ed

 

[crs]

Ed, Ses, and all,
This thread has developed a life since my first good luck post. I will try to contribute with minimum words.

Ed, the Cape buff in my avatar was killed with 400 grain Woodies from my 1895 .405 at a chronographed velocity of 2076 fps and a chamber pressure of 48,000 psi. The velocity is in the range of the 450/400 and the buff did not know the difference. Hornady advertises their factory 400 grain 450/400 ammo at a velocity of 2050 fps. IMHO, with the right bullets, that is plenty for a buffalo.
My current .405 400 grain loads reach 2050 fps at a pressure of less than 40,000 psi because I changed to VV N133 which generates less pressure and regulates well in my .405 WCF DR.

Hornady advertises their 300 grain .405 WCF ammo at 2225 fps and my handloads chrony at 2250 fps, again with N133. I know a person or two that have shot 300 grain hand loads in their 1895 .405s at 2400 fps. I have not tried that because the 300 grain bullets have worked well at 2250.

I also know a new 1895 .405 shooter that is working on 400 grain loads to reach 2150 fps. If he succeeds , I will pass it on. He has a chrony and pressure testing equipment and I wish him well.

For me, my present .405 rifles and ammo are quite satisfactory and I see no need for higher velocity.
The 400 Whelen sounds like a good cartridge for bolt action rifles, but IMHO, is not needed for a .405 WCF.
Best of luck with your project and I look forward to reading a hunting story about how you flattened the game with the Whelen.

 

[bruce moulds]

my 405 win (same as 40/72 in practice) does just over 1300 with a 440 gn paper patch bullet patched to bore diameter and 12:1 alloy, with 85 gn (depending on lot no) of swiss 1.5 black powder.
it shoots accurately out to 1000 yds.
rifle is built on a falling block works action, and it has a ron smith gaintwist barrel endint at 0ne turn in 13".
it has similar wind deflection to 45 cal 550 gn bullets driven by 100 gns of powder.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Got my gun back from the smith! My first big bore (ok big-medium)

Dpcd (Tom Jackson) on AccRel, did the work. Its his custom contour, which is based on the "Duke of Marlborough" contour (very similar to a Brit stalker/Rigby highlander). Douglas .410 bbl 1:14 twist. This is the Petrov/G&H/ Original Whelen correct chamber, not the copy cat chamber that got the bad rep for head space issues.

M70 Classic 24" Douglas bbl. It is going to be sent out for cerakote here shortly after I sella few more items.

Dies are in the way. This should throw a 400 gr bullet around 2125-2160, but I think i'll try to find a good load with a North Fork 360 gr bullet, which has an SD of .301 and should easily hit 2250+ for +4000 ft-lbs. Do believe that'll knock a buff down. Those are the same numbers as the 450/400 with the same bullet.

Right now it's wearing a Zeiss Terra 3X 2-7x32 for test fitment and pictures. May move my Leupold 1-4x20 over from my 375 or buy a FX-II 3x20 or Weaver Classic V 1-3×20. Heck may even try out a Weaver Classic 4x32 Ive got sitting around.

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Milehighshooter.
Love your choice of cal and rifle.
Even tho I've had nothing to do with the 400 Whelen I researched heaps on it before choosing the 35 Whelen.
Apparently you get the best headspace with the AI cartridge. All I read the best way to fireform cartridges for the 400 is to load a handgun bullet upside down an touching the lands. This is said to hold the case against the bolt face for correct headspace.
It is supposed to equal the old 400/450 and come close to the original 404 Jeffery. A lot of bang from an 06 case.
Elmer Kieth loved it as well as the 35. I also looked at the 375 Whelen but not much better than the 35.
With newer powders available now you should be able to work up some potent loads.
If you want to PM me I would be happy to work out some load data from load from a disc for you.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

This may be old news but a friend gave me a Gun Digest 2018 he had finished with. He knows I like to slice, scan and archive articles of interest. There is a great article on the 400 Whelen with some nice color photographs of some beautiful 400 Whelen rifles. The article is pretty in depth on the history, design and loading of the cartridge. It is written by Bob Woodfill. Included are a couple of pics of Elmer Keith's 400 Whelen.

Dale wade
If possible could you PM me a copy of the article as well please mate it would be greatly appreciated
Cheers mate Bob