400 H&H

[Bert the Turtle]

To me, the one downside to Trailboss is you cannot achieve what I would call "mid-range" ballistics with it.

I see the need for a 400gr cast at 1,800 to 2,000 for a nice general purpose practice load - and you can't do that with the TB.

But no powder is perfect, and TB fills a niche.

5744 will probably work for you. I load resized 300g 44 magnum bullets in my 404. I asked Accurate for load data and they emailed it to me. My starting load got about 1700fps and I haven't seen need for more, but there was plenty of room to increase velocity if I needed to. Trail Boss makes for really gentle loads with the same bullet.

 

[tarbe]

5744 will probably work for you. I load resized 300g 44 magnum bullets in my 404. I asked Accurate for load data and they emailed it to me. My starting load got about 1700fps and I haven't seen need for more, but there was plenty of room to increase velocity if I needed to. Trail Boss makes for really gentle loads with the same bullet.

Agree - I have been using 5744 in my 45-70 and I like it. 5744 will be the first powder I try for mid-range loads with the 450-400.

 

[tarbe]

Just for fun:

View attachment 198396

l to r : 308 Norma, 375H&H, 400 H&H

And for more fun:

Case Capacities in H2O:

375 H&H 95 gr
400 H&H 104gr
416 Rem 107gr
450-400 NE 117gr

I couldn't find the 308 Norma...but the H&H and Win Mags are 86gr and 89gr respectively...it will be less than the Win for sure.

 

[Pheroze]

And for more fun:

Case Capacities in H2O:

375 H&H 95 gr
400 H&H 104gr
416 Rem 107gr
450-400 NE 117gr

I couldn't find the 308 Norma...but the H&H and Win Mags are 86gr and 89gr respectively...it will be less than the Win for sure.

I think the 400 H&H case looks a lot like the 450/400. I think both are great cartridges. I am sure the designers of the 400 H&H must have based it on the good points of the 450/400. It's surprising that the former is so much smaller, yet pushes the 400gr to 2400 fps.

 

[tarbe]

I think the 400 H&H case looks a lot like the 450/400. I think both are great cartridges. I am sure the designers of the 400 H&H must have based it on the good points of the 450/400. It's surprising that the former is so much smaller, yet pushes the 400gr to 2400 fps.

It is all about the CIP allowed pressures. Because the 400 H&H is a new cartridge and has no old/weak rifles chambered for it, the max allowed pressure for factory ammo is much higher.

The 450-400 is a fair bit larger diameter (and of course, has a rim vs rimless belted) but otherwise they do have a very similar profile!

I know guys run the 450-400 up to and even past 2,400 with 400 grain bullets, in the No 1. Doubles of course are regulated with the CIP pressure/velocity level ammo, so even if you could run them faster you would likely completely goof up the regulation.

 

[tarbe]

More than a few folks wonder what the justification is for the 400 H&H, when you have the 416 Taylor and 416 Remington on the same basic case - not to mention the Rigby, Ruger, Weatherby and Dakota offerings in the 416 bore.

Call me weird, petty, or whatever, but I can tell you for sure...if I were putting together a nice custom rifle, especially if it were being made by H&H, I'd much rather have it in 400 H&H with that roll-stamp, head-stamp, and nice sloping profile reminiscent of the NE cartridges vs the Taylor or Remington.

I think some of the above explains the popularity of the .404 in a time when we have a fairly crowded filed of 40 - 42 caliber choices. It is an excellent cartridge...but it has so much more going for it than just the numbers. It has history and pedigree and style.

On a practical note, I have really come to appreciate long necks on cartridges. Not only for the bullet tension they provide, but also to keep cast bullet lube where it belongs (not out in the air or mingling with the powder, but in the neck). Think 300 H&H vs 300 Win Mag.

Those are all just my personal opinions and worth about 2 cents.

 

[jacques smith]

I had a PH show me a case from a 416 rigby and compared it to one I had from my 400 HH. He refused to believe they were comparable Oh well to each his own. I also have a 416 rigby and it's done it's job often just beats me up more

 

[tarbe]

Everything else being equal (never is...but that's another thread!) the Rigby will produce more recoil at any given velocity because it uses more powder to achieve a given velocity and the ejecta mass (which takes into account the powder mass x 1.5) factors into the recoil impulse.

Running at the same peak pressures with suitable powders, the Rigby will always beat the H&H in sheer velocity. No replacement for displacement...again, all else being equal! Rigby ammo (and 450-400 NE for that matter) are loaded to relatively low pressure by the factories.

I emphasize suitable powders above because peak pressure is not the whole story. It is about the area under the curve.


Tim

 

[Pheroze]

Dr. Robertson, in Perfect Shot II claims that for elephant and Buffalo there is no need to push 400 gr 40 caliber bullet faster than 2400 fps. In deciding on a 40 cal I was concerned about the step up from my 375 recoil levels. It seemed to make sense to me as a very useable caliber.

 

[Double BC]

I think I'm going to have the iron sights regulated for 2300fps. I think it would be as really nice soft shooter at 2150fps as well. That may be my retirement load.

 

[zephyr]

For what it is worth, if you are having a gun built check out NECG's Universal Front sights. They are adjustable so you can change the POI easily for you irons.
I think for most shooting done with Irons, inside 100yrs that they will be good for variety of different bullets and velocities.

 

[zephyr]

I have always thought my 400H&H to be a soft shooter, but have felt it was more because of stock design and fit.
My physics is pretty nil, but how can a 400H&H pushing a 400gr bullet at 2400fps shoot any softer than a "416 anything" shooting a 400gr bullet at 2400fps.???

 

[zephyr]

I am off the Zimbabwe this 17th of August for Buff and Eland. My 400H&H will be coming along as my primary for Eland and as a scoped backup for my 450NE which I hope to use for Buff.
I will be shooting CEB .411 dia 400gr Solids and 370gr Raptors out of my 400H&H all shooting pretty much to the same POI. The solids at 2400 and the Raptors at 2450.
I had on the bench .411 dia 400gr Softs and Solids from NorthFork and .411 dia 400gr TSX's but last minute difficulties kept me from finding the load I needed for the NorthForks or TSXs.

 

[Pheroze]

I am off the Zimbabwe this 17th of August for Buff and Eland. My 400H&H will be coming along as my primary for Eland and as a scoped backup for my 450NE which I hope to use for Buff.
I will be shooting CEB .411 dia 400gr Solids and 370gr Raptors out of my 400H&H all shooting pretty much to the same POI. The solids at 2400 and the Raptors at 2450.
I had on the bench .411 dia 400gr Softs and Solids from NorthFork and .411 dia 400gr TSX's but last minute difficulties kept me from finding the load I needed for the NorthForks or TSXs.

Very excited for you! Maybe a little jealous too....Who are you hunting with?

 

[Pheroze]

I have always thought my 400H&H to be a soft shooter, but have felt it was more because of stock design and fit.
My physics is pretty nil, but how can a 400H&H pushing a 400gr bullet at 2400fps shoot any softer than a "416 anything" shooting a 400gr bullet at 2400fps.???

My understanding, from the amateurish book knowledge I have, is the same as described by @tarbe :

the Rigby will produce more recoil at any given velocity because it uses more powder to achieve a given velocity and the ejecta mass (which takes into account the powder mass x 1.5) factors into the recoil impulse.

 

[fourfive8]

Here's a simple recoil calculator for potential recoil inquiries. http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

Also, I still can't get over the notion that I've seen or heard where the 400 HH produces less pressure than a 416 Rem with each propelling a 400 gr bullet to the same velocity. Especially since the case volume (chamber volume) of the 400 HH is smaller than the 416 Rem. Huh? must be the "new" physics I'm not familiar with.

 

[tarbe]

Here's a simple recoil calculator for potential recoil inquiries. http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

Also, I still can't get over the notion that I've seen or heard where the 400 HH produces less pressure than a 416 Rem with each propelling a 400 gr bullet to the same velocity. Especially since the case volume (chamber volume) of the 400 HH is smaller than the 416 Rem. Huh? must be the "new" physics I'm not familiar with.

I was comparing to to the Rigby, not the Remington....but sounds like you are reading this somewhere else?

That is a very strange concept, indeed!

 

[fourfive8]

Yah, I think the gun writer was massaging the language a little- he was probably getting some bennies for the 400 HH write up

 

[jacques smith]

First Pheroze I'm really jealous and the very best luck to you. Second I have owned my 416 rigby for 30 years and it has never let me down. I've only owned 400HH for several years and I flipped over a moose like he took a frontal chest hit from a claymore. I think they are both capable of standing up to anything, but I have a problem because I've found a 470NE double that is calling to me as I sleep. Is it possible I may have an affliction?

 

[Pheroze]

470...nice...... Funny, but I have a soft spot for that one too. Maybe one day....but then, why not a 500 NE as it probably differentiates itself from the 40 cal pack a bit more.

My only concern with this project is my lack of patience....I have discovered that when your gunsmith says "it will a couple of weeks" that translates to "not today, bug in a couple of months, as it could be closer to being done."