40 S&W cartridge- how good?

[TMac]

I chose a 40 s&w mostly because I can use 200 gr. hard cast bullets with a large flat meplat for woods carry around bears and do not shoot larger pistol cartridges as accurately. It’s the biggest one I shoot very well. A 9mm with the same hard cast bullets at 158 grains would probably work as well, but if I can shoot them similarly, heavier lead wins for my purposes. For carry in town, I shoot lighter fast hollow points for two legged goblins.

 

[NE 7x57]

I usually carry a 9mm. Don't feel under gunned, of course if violence becomes an epidemic jn my area the rest of you are screwed. If I knew I was at risk for a gunfight....I'd find somewhere else to be.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I chose a 40 s&w mostly because I can use 200 gr. hard cast bullets with a large flat meplat for woods carry around bears and do not shoot larger pistol cartridges as accurately. It’s the biggest one I shoot very well. A 9mm with the same hard cast bullets at 158 grains would probably work as well, but if I can shoot them similarly, heavier lead wins for my purposes. For carry in town, I shoot lighter fast hollow points for two legged goblins.

I carry my .40 with those same hard casts during the summer when at my brother in laws property because he's seen bear, mt. lion and has many more rattlesnakes. I load snake shot in the chamber, followed by the hardcasts. I would carry my 10mm with 220gr. hardcasts, but CCI doesn't manufacture snake loads in 10mm. I contacted CCI a couple of years ago, but was told they had no plans to produce 10mm snake loads. As popular as the 10mm cartridge has become, you'd think they'd reconsider?

 

[Tanks]

... I contacted CCI a couple of years ago, but was told they had no plans to produce 10mm snake loads. As popular as the 10mm cartridge has become, you'd think they'd reconsider?

I don't think it is as popular as you think. Especially compared to 9mm, companies will go for volume production as retooling takes time.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I don't think it is as popular as you think. Especially compared to 9mm, companies will go for volume production as retooling takes time.

Maybe so, but for the prices of the Glock 10mm models NOW compared to their other cartridge models, you'd be led to believe that's all that's being bought? Try and find one of their 10mm models for under $800 (maybe $900?). It's absurd.

 

[ChrisG]

I have shot a lot of 40 s&w rounds through the years. Mostly plinking but I used to carry one when I was hunting. I always went back to 9mm... when I needed more I would jump up to .45 super. There isnt any practical difference between the three auto calibers. It has been proven over and over that all three have had some spectacularly effective stops (Phil Schumaker killing a huge brown bear with a compact 9mm) and some spectacular failures. The FBI has since switched back to 9mm as bullets have become more effective and most military units (even special forces) actively choose 9mm over others because of the fact that they can't discern a dramatic difference that 50-100 foot pounds makes in an already underpowered arm.

The 40 is pretty rough on guns though as its chamber pressure is 40,000psi. Thats 5,000 psi more than .44 magnum. This equates to high slide velocity and battering of the gun. In contrast,a .45 super is running at only 28,000 psi and generating 700 ft-lbs at the muzzle. So I eventually sold all my .40s, went to 10mm, then sold that (I'm a reloader and I didnt like having to go to the next county to pick up my brass) and went to .45 super and a .38 sits next to my bed in a safe.

Pick whichever one you like, shoot it and don't worry about the little microbe sized differences between them.


Sources for my LUDICROUS claims:

SOF Prefers 9mm over .45 Caliber

I have received a lot of email responses from my July 3 article on the Army’s Modular Handgun System praising .45 caliber as far superior to 9mm.

www.google.com

Defensive Handgun Cartridges Are All the Same (Facts Vs. Hype)

Research by the FBI and other law enforcement professionals, along with gunfight analysis, proves all self-defense handgun cartridges do the same basic things and have the same limitations. When you cut through the hype and myth, the facts say there is no such thing as "The Best Handgun Cartridge."

skyaboveus.com

The Reasons Why FBI Went Back to 9mm

The FBI has selected Glock Gen 5 handguns in 9mm as their service weapon. There has been much speculation about the reasons for their caliber change.

sofrep.com

 

[CJW]

This reminds me of a video I saw a while back of an off duty cop defending himself from a neighbors pitbull with a .40. He fired 3 or 4 times at only a few feet but the dog went down from the first shot which was a head shot. The dog regained consciousness after a couple minutes and it was later found that the bullet from the first shot used all of it's energy to open on the back of its skull and completely failed to penetrate. It was laying on the sidewalk fully mushroomed.

My point is that no pistol round should be trusted 100% and a person should find the one they can shoot straight and allows them fast and accurate follow up shots.

 

[mdwest]

I have shot a lot of 40 s&w rounds through the years. Mostly plinking but I used to carry one when I was hunting. I always went back to 9mm... when I needed more I would jump up to .45 super. There isnt any practical difference between the three auto calibers. It has been proven over and over that all three have had some spectacularly effective stops (Phil Schumaker killing a huge brown bear with a compact 9mm) and some spectacular failures. The FBI has since switched back to 9mm as bullets have become more effective and most military units (even special forces) actively choose 9mm over others because of the fact that they can't discern a dramatic difference that 50-100 foot pounds makes in an already underpowered arm.

The 40 is pretty rough on guns though as its chamber pressure is 40,000psi. Thats 5,000 psi more than .44 magnum. This equates to high slide velocity and battering of the gun. In contrast,a .45 super is running at only 28,000 psi and generating 700 ft-lbs at the muzzle. So I eventually sold all my .40s, went to 10mm, then sold that (I'm a reloader and I didnt like having to go to the next county to pick up my brass) and went to .45 super and a .38 sits next to my bed in a safe.

Pick whichever one you like, shoot it and don't worry about the little microbe sized differences between them.


Sources for my LUDICROUS claims:

SOF Prefers 9mm over .45 Caliber

I have received a lot of email responses from my July 3 article on the Army’s Modular Handgun System praising .45 caliber as far superior to 9mm.

www.google.com

Defensive Handgun Cartridges Are All the Same (Facts Vs. Hype)

Research by the FBI and other law enforcement professionals, along with gunfight analysis, proves all self-defense handgun cartridges do the same basic things and have the same limitations. When you cut through the hype and myth, the facts say there is no such thing as "The Best Handgun Cartridge."

skyaboveus.com

The Reasons Why FBI Went Back to 9mm

The FBI has selected Glock Gen 5 handguns in 9mm as their service weapon. There has been much speculation about the reasons for their caliber change.

sofrep.com

All very much true and spot on...

CAG/Delta has spent a huge amount of time and money testing a wide variety of handguns, cartridges, etc.. and has issued 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP to its personnel in combat situations more times than anyone can count at this point.. They have a huge budget, can select any pistol in any caliber they want (dont have the same sort of restrictions that other military units have).. and they chose the Glock 19 in 9mm... As did the Navy's SEAL teams (after being Sig Saur loyalists for a very, very long time)..

With modern ammunition, there is little discernable difference in wound channels or "stopping power" among common "carry" handgun calibers..

I was taught a long time ago that a pistol serves only two purposes in a combat situation.. 1) you can squeeze into tight places with it and clear confined spaces more easily/readily than with a long gun... and 2) to give you a tool to fight your way to a rifle...

In extreme situations, it can also provide a rapid backup to a malfunctioning rifle or a rifle in need of a reload..

But in short.. pistols dont make great man stoppers.. no matter what caliber they are in (an obvious exception would be the monster magnums that have become en vogue lately but arent typical "carry" firearms..

 

[Bonk]

Unfortunately 10mm and 45ACP are considered 'monster magnums' by today's standards. The majority of people are only interested in 9mm. Especially women and new shooters. Obviously not all new shooters feel that way but when was the last time you heard a new shooter asking about 45ACP or 10mm for their first handgun? OTOH, generations of young military men were introduced to handguns with a 45ACP 1911. Nowadays most young men are introduced to handguns via video games. No wonder they think 9mm has almost too much recoil. They have no experience with how real guns shoot.

 

[mdwest]

Unfortunately 10mm and 45ACP are considered 'monster magnums' by today's standards. The majority of people are only interested in 9mm. Especially women and new shooters. Obviously not all new shooters feel that way but when was the last time you heard a new shooter asking about 45ACP or 10mm for their first handgun? OTOH, generations of young military men were introduced to handguns with a 45ACP 1911. Nowadays most young men are introduced to handguns via video games. No wonder they think 9mm has almost too much recoil. They have no experience with how real guns shoot.

That is certainly true for many shooters.. but I think a guy thats serving on the weapons committee for Delta, thats spent the better part of the last 20 years shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds a year through multiple weapons systems in both combat and in training doesnt fit into that bunch... and yet... when given the opportunity to select any handgun in any caliber they want.... they selected a G19 in 9mm...

These are the most battle proven troops on the entire planet right now... making decisions based on what is most effective in the widest variety of circumstances and situations possible.. looking at how well or poorly different calibers penetrate, expand, deal with thick/durable outer layers of clothing, deal with bare skin, how effectively they kill (or dont), how effectively they disable (or dont)... They have multiple .45 ACPs in their inventory (1911's, H&Ks, etc).. as well as 9mm's, .40's, and 10mm's (they also have revolvers, .22 autos, and a host of other specialty handguns in the inventory).. They dont have issues with ammo availability, NATO contraints, etc.. they can quite literally deploy almost anything they believe will make them more effective and help them to better accomplish their mission..

and they selected the 9mm as the primary duty weapon for the unit members...

Im pretty sure that has nothing to do with no experience with how real guns shoot.. and everything to do with how pistol calibers perform in real world situations (2+ decades of actual use and shooting bad guys with them almost daily) vs the myths that the gun writers and "researchers" have propagated for decades..

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I live in a small enough place (population) that I don't worry a whole lot about people. That said, my carry weapon when I do carry is a .40 Kahr. It's lightweight and rides very well in the couple of holsters I have for it.

I do live in an area with a large brown bear population. My first choice, ever and always, is a short barreled 12 gauge with slugs. I carry a government issued 870 for work, and I have a Mossberg for personal use when I'm hunting or camping. However, as far as a pistol on me in those situations, I have .40 caliber I carry in chest holster. I use and practice with Double Tap 200 grain hardcast. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but the .44 I used to own, it was heavy enough that I didn't always have it on me. I never have that issue with my Smith and Wesson .40.

Whatever you use - for whatever purpose - always practice. I realize that's harder to want to do in a time when ammo is so much harder to come by.

 

[ChrisG]

That is certainly true for many shooters.. but I think a guy thats serving on the weapons committee for Delta, thats spent the better part of the last 20 years shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds a year through multiple weapons systems in both combat and in training doesnt fit into that bunch... and yet... when given the opportunity to select any handgun in any caliber they want.... they selected a G19 in 9mm...

These are the most battle proven troops on the entire planet right now... making decisions based on what is most effective in the widest variety of circumstances and situations possible.. looking at how well or poorly different calibers penetrate, expand, deal with thick/durable outer layers of clothing, deal with bare skin, how effectively they kill (or dont), how effectively they disable (or dont)... They have multiple .45 ACPs in their inventory (1911's, H&Ks, etc).. as well as 9mm's, .40's, and 10mm's (they also have revolvers, .22 autos, and a host of other specialty handguns in the inventory).. They dont have issues with ammo availability, NATO contraints, etc.. they can quite literally deploy almost anything they believe will make them more effective and help them to better accomplish their mission..

and they selected the 9mm as the primary duty weapon for the unit members...

Im pretty sure that has nothing to do with no experience with how real guns shoot.. and everything to do with how pistol calibers perform in real world situations (2+ decades of actual use and shooting bad guys with them almost daily) vs the myths that the gun writers and "researchers" have propagated for decades..

And not only militaries. Ammunition manufacturers have shown over and over that the difference in defensive ammunition performance in real shootings between all the defensive calibers including .357 and .44 magnum is minuscule (I'm probably going to get all kinds of flak for that statement) but it holds true. Federal premium showed that a huge amount of the extra energy from a more powerful handgun is simply absorbed into the elasticity of tissue without additional damage. You can refute this with all the anecdotal observation evidence you have but it has been tested over and over under controlled conditions. Think about it like this... start at 100fps and shoot a bullet at a thick rubber wall, then progressively increase the velocity 100 fps at a time, doubling, tripling or even quadrupling the energy doesnt produce extra damage to the rubber wall. The bullet just bounces off. Only once velocity exceeds a certain threshold will it penetrate, but increase it still more and it still just punches a hole. Not until you dramatically increase velocity does the damage become significant.
In guns this proves to be beyond the local speed of sound in tissue (usually established at >2,000fps), at which point damage increases proportionally with speed to a point and the additional energy transfer is significant enough to stretch or shock the tissue enough to damage it in such a way that it cannot spring back. What the bigger handguns do is offer better straightline bone crushing penetration they don't bowl people or animals over with bigger punch. That comes from too many movies.

Here is the article:

Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb - Lucky Gunner Lounge

An explanation about what ballistics gel is and why it's a useful tool when measuring the effectiveness of self-defense ammo.

www.luckygunner.com

 

[JimP]

One big choice that shooters have to make is what kind of ammo that they are packing in their pistols. It doesn't matter if it is a 22 Lr or a S&W 500 magnum.

One of the posters above posted about a pit bull that was shot in the head and the bullet didn't do much damage when it hit the skull. I would wager that the shooter was using hollow point ammo in his .40.

I pack a .40 S&W, I don't load it with hollow points or even what is more common the FMJ rounds. I load it with jacketed bullets with exposed lead 180 grain rounds. This round gives me penetration plus expansion when it hits something which transfers a lot of the energy to the wound channel and doesn't just blow up when it hits something solid.

 

[hawkeyesatx]

When I was a Sheriffs Officer, our duty firearm was a Glock 23 in .40 S&W. The Glock was a poor platform for the .40, since it didn’t fully support the case head.
But, when 3 of our officers had a shootout with 2 perps in an older Chevy Trailblazer, it made a believer out of me about the .40 S&W cartridge.
Our agency used primarily 155 gr or 165 gr PMC Starfire ammo.
The .40 penetrated that Trailblazer like a hot knife through butter. Why? Because the muzzle velocities were 1150 to 1200 fps.
That right there equals .357 Mag muzzle energy, and penetration capabilities.
One of the guys got out, barely nicked by the .40, and ran his buns off to unknown parts, while his buddy stayed in the vehicle, to be hit 3 times in different directions, and survived, barely, because of the officers knowing cpr, and he made it to his court hearing!
Now, I know this will hurt a lot of 9mm guys out there, but I know the 9mm wouldn’t have penetrated like the .40 did that night. The bullets in 9mm lack sufficient mass and weight to do so.
The .40 loaded with the mild 180 gr loads is a different animal than the 155 gr or 165 gr loads. I know the 180 gr bullets can be loaded to 1000 fps, thus being an effective penetrator, and decent wild animal protector, given its a good hollow point.
I’m a fan of the .40, and a .45 fan.
I like the idea of putting bigger holes in bad guys, because of tissue disruption, and faster blood loss.
The idea of static shock incapacitating anyone isn’t the right thinking, since every pistol or revolver round doesn’t do that. It’s all about the holes made, and the the blood loss generated.
But above all, shot placement is number one!
If need be, do the old FBI shooting, 2 to the chest, one to the head!


Hawk

 

[mdwest]

When I was a Sheriffs Officer, our duty firearm was a Glock 23 in .40 S&W. The Glock was a poor platform for the .40, since it didn’t fully support the case head.
But, when 3 of our officers had a shootout with 2 perps in an older Chevy Trailblazer, it made a believer out of me about the .40 S&W cartridge.

I was also issued a G23 when I was a cop.. I carried a G19 (personal weapon) off duty...

My agency was a large metro area agency known for being one of the highest crime cities in the country... unfortunately we had quite a bit of real world shooting experiences to draw from.. Our duty load was the 165gr Remington Golden Saber..

I had plenty of confidence in both the pistol/platform and the round.. but.. if I knew I was going to a gunfight, I took the Rem 870 (early in my career) or the M4 Patrol Carbine (later in my career) out of the car when I stepped out..

As much confidence as I had in the pistol and the selected cartridge, it simply isnt the man stopper that hollywood and gun writers want us to believe it is.. if you need to stop a fight immediately, 00 buck or a 62gr bonded soft point in 5.56 does a far better job..

 

[Bert the Turtle]

It is important to note that Delta (SEALS, LAPD SWAT, etc, etc) choose their weapons based on their mission and their needs. No doubt, they are unlikely to choose poor gear. That said, the appropriateness of their choice to your particular circumstances relates to how much your circumstances mirror theirs.

I suspect a pistol serves as a backup to a rifle for most of these guys most of the time, but then again, what Delta does isn't exactly for most of us to know. What they use to back up an M4 may not be the same thing I'd choose as a carry gun. But it would assuredly be OK for me.

9mm, 40, 45- they are all service pistol cartridges. More or less in the same ballpark. If there is a difference in how well they work, it isn't tremendous. And in any event, "one shot stopping" is a fun way to tell other people that your 45 is better than their 9mm (because if we are honest, that is the way those numbers are used) but nobody with any sense has "I'll shoot him once and hope it works" as a game plan. You shoot, reacquire a sight picture, and if the target is still standing/moving/a threat you shoot again. repeat as applicable.

While I know we are all going to hit perfectly with every shot, in general, gunfights do involve some missing. And if you are Delta, they provably involve a handful of bad guys. And if a Delta guy is using his pistol, the shit has probably already hit the fan with their rifle and they are half a step behind from the transition process. There's a lot to be said for more rounds in the magazine and that means 9mm. The same applies to most of us as far as more rounds in the magazine being better than fewer, potentially slightly more effective rounds.

With all of that preamble, it may be surprising that my carry pistol is a compact 1911 in 45ACP. Why? A single-stack 1911 is pretty flat and easy to carry for a real pistol. I could I suppose replace it with something in 9mm but after however many decades, it isn't worth it to me to gain some marginal theoretical improvement. But if I were kicking in doors with a rifle in my hand, I'd choose differently.

 

[Ridge Runner]

This is probably not the best forum to ask the question, but it's the forum that I frequent, so it's the one on which I'll ask. A few years ago in response to "shortcomings" of the 9mm and 45 ACP cartridges, the 40S&W was invented. Increased performance over the 9mm and increased capacity over the 45 were claimed and suddenly it was the cartridge of choice for all sorts of law enforcement agencies. But now the frenzy seems to have subsided and those that liked the 9mm have returned to it, claiming improvements in bullets while those that liked the 45 have gone back to 45s that have increased capacity.

the 40S&W does seem to have a lot going for it as a personal protection handgun, but is there an advantage of it over either the 9mm or 45 ACP?

Ray B, I'm not sure here, please clarify.

Are you asking about the 40 cal in reference to popularity or are you considering a 40 cal for a carry/self defense weapon?

I have own and used 9mm and with today's return to popularity with the variety of better ammo the 9mm is now, within reason, a good choice.

I have own and used 40 cal. and perhaps it too will once again return to popularity when there is better factory ammo consistantly being produced.

I currently own and use 357 S&W, 45 ACP and 44 Rem Mag caliber handguns.

Whatever your purpose(s) for your choice, in this case a handgun?

Ammunition is the key factor!

For urban use against 2 legged dirtbags: punch, dead right there, no pass through to injure/kill any unintended target(s).

For in the field use against 4 legged critters: generally means longer range where both velocity and punch are needed for killing, pass through are desired, and the least likelihood of injury/death to any unintended target will occur.

There isn't a one do everything caliber. It's the ammunition that allows the various calibers to do just about everything.

Then there is always the availability of ammunition when one most needs it. As in the nearest "mom and pop" store generally only keeps a small stock of popular ammunition on hand, whereas the nearest town, an hour or more away, has 1 or more sporting goods shop(s) and that "could have" the ammunition one needs in stock.

 

[RETD16]

I have carried a Glock 23 for years. I have always thought that the 9mm is not a good stopping round. It’s a good wounding round though. I guess that Law Enforcement is citing new bullet technology and load technologies that make is more formidable. To me, you’re just putting lipstick on a pig. It’s still a 9mm. I truly believe that the 40 S&W is a superior stopping round, but I think that the 45 ACP is even better.

The 45 ACP has great frontal diameter and great bullet weight. The 45 ACP is a fantastic stopping round. Yes recoil can be a bit stiff, but it works on the other end.

 

[sgt_zim]

I like 40S&W and I think it gets a bad rap. It's the Goldilocks caliber. The perfect compromise between power and recoil. Just right. I prefer 45ACP and 38Super for subjective reasons and by subjective I mean I like 1911s. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate 40S&W because it's a great caliber and it'll get the job done if you do your part. Like it's big brother the 10mm it tends to be an inherently accurate caliber. I've also noticed that whenever there's a run on ammo or ammo is in short supply you can almost always still find 40S&W available on the shelves. YMMV.

different strokes for different folks...

that compromise gives the worst of both worlds, IMO. A general loss of mag capacity WRT 9mm, and a general loss of punch WRT 45 ACP.

I've never been in a pistol fight, but I worked with plenty of officers who had been. More cartridges is almost always preferable to fewer, even if they're less powerful. See 5.56x45 vs 7.62x51.

 

[hawkeyesatx]

I was also issued a G23 when I was a cop.. I carried a G19 (personal weapon) off duty...

My agency was a large metro area agency known for being one of the highest crime cities in the country... unfortunately we had quite a bit of real world shooting experiences to draw from.. Our duty load was the 165gr Remington Golden Saber..

I had plenty of confidence in both the pistol/platform and the round.. but.. if I knew I was going to a gunfight, I took the Rem 870 (early in my career) or the M4 Patrol Carbine (later in my career) out of the car when I stepped out..

As much confidence as I had in the pistol and the selected cartridge, it simply isnt the man stopper that hollywood and gun writers want us to believe it is.. if you need to stop a fight immediately, 00 buck or a 62gr bonded soft point in 5.56 does a far better job..

Yep! The 12 ga with 00 buck will settle a firearm fight very quick!
We didn’t have the M4’s in our cars, but man, I would have loved to have one, since I know from my military days, it can be as effective as the 12 ga in a CQB scenario. Handgun is the last option.

Hawk