.375 vs .404 jeffry

[Ontario Hunter]

In the time it took for you to write this wonderful summary, I would have ordered both guns & all the reloading equipment for both. Life is too short to make hard decisions.....you deserve both!

Making the wrong hard decisions can have hard consequences. Like suddenly needing to find new accommodations and a divorce lawyer.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I really do not know year of mfg.

I also have a Rigby that was rebored and converted to .404 J. I believe they did quite a few of these conversions

Lon

 

[ftrovato]

Making the wrong hard decisions can have hard consequences. Like suddenly needing to find new accommodations and a divorce lawyer.

I friend of mine (married) has a little trick for getting new guns in the house. He puts a stick in a soft gun case and tells his wife he is going shooting at the range. Goes to the gun shop, throws out the stick and puts the new gun in the case.....been keeping peace in his home for years! ;-).

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I really do not know year of mfg.

I also have a Rigby that was rebored and converted to .404 J. I believe they did quite a few of these conversions

Lon

If the Rigby conversion was 416 to 404, that would be understandable. 416 was pushing the envelope for standard length Mauser. Perhaps the owner was not happy with the way it fed or kicked and opted to step down to shorter cartridge with thicker bullet and less recoil. I think that's what I would have done. Wouldn't take much to make the conversion. Possibly the 416 bottom metal needed no modification. I used unmodified 416 Rem bottom metal and it works great.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I friend of mine (married) has a little trick for getting new guns in the house. He puts a stick in a soft gun case and tells his wife he is going shooting at the range. Goes to the gun shop, throws out the stick and puts the new gun in the case.....been keeping peace in his home for years! ;-).

He must have a separate checking account ... on a Cayman Islands bank.

 

[IvW]

I am old school....
Heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocity always produces the goods....
Going lighter and faster defeats the object.....

2200 to 2400 max fps with heavy for caliber bullets have always produced the goods......

375 H&H 340gr@2300fps
404 Jeff 420gr@2300fps
416 Rigby 410gr@2300fps
458 Lott 500gr@2300fps

All dg with correct shot placement are dead....

Light bullets high velocity.....problems.....

I dont use fmj or round nose solids only brass meplat and controlled expansion expanders.. .

Busy developing a meplat hollow point brass solid at the moment testing should be done this year....

My 2c anyway......

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

If the Rigby conversion was 416 to 404, that would be understandable. 416 was pushing the envelope for standard length Mauser. Perhaps the owner was not happy with the way it fed or kicked and opted to step down to shorter cartridge with thicker bullet and less recoil. I think that's what I would have done. Wouldn't take much to make the conversion. Possibly the 416 bottom metal needed no modification. I used unmodified 416 Rem bottom metal and it works great.

No, not originally a .416R, but .350R converted to .404J . I had Rigbys work sheet, but I have no idea where it is. The Rigby is a much lighter rifle the action is SSBridge mauser again original magazine metal & 3rd. Capacity.

Lon

 

[Ontario Hunter]

No, not originally a .416R, but .350R converted to .404J . I had Rigbys work sheet, but I have no idea where it is. The Rigby is a much lighter rifle the action is SSBridge mauser again original magazine metal & 3rd. Capacity.

Lon

If you can't see any modifications to the box then it almost certainly is not original. Rigby must have made new bottom metal for the conversion. 404 rim is half a mm wider and shoulder is also much wider (2mm) than 350 Rigby. Overall length of 404 is 2.5mm longer. I think it would have required significant modification to original 350 bottom metal before it would work with 404. Did Rigby number their bottom metal?

 

[Rare Breed]

I am old school....
Heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocity always produces the goods....
Going lighter and faster defeats the object.....

2200 to 2400 max fps with heavy for caliber bullets have always produced the goods......

375 H&H 340gr@2300fps
404 Jeff 420gr@2300fps
416 Rigby 410gr@2300fps
458 Lott 500gr@2300fps

All dg with correct shot placement are dead....

Light bullets high velocity.....problems.....

I dont use fmj or round nose solids only brass meplat and controlled expansion expanders.. .

Busy developing a meplat hollow point brass solid at the moment testing should be done this year....

My 2c anyway......

I am thinking 400 grain bullets for 404j at 2300 FPS?

 

[ftrovato]

He must have a separate checking account ... on a Cayman Islands bank.

That's another interesting story....but I was sworn to secrecy.

 

[Tom Leoni]

Eric, I haven't read all 9 pages of this thread, but to answer your original post:

1 - The muzzle-energy formula gives too great a weight to muzzle velocity, and energy values don't necessarily translate into killing power. In 30+ years of hunting, I've never given them any thought.

2 - Bullet diameter, sectional density and the ability of a bullet to stay together are much more reliable predictors of a round's killing power.

3 - As someone else has pointed out, 120+ years of modern-cartridge use on game have amply proven that a heavy-for-caliber bullet thrown at moderate velocity (2,000-2,600 f/s) is a hard-to-beat combination on game of all sizes. Faster is not necessarily better (and is often worse, because it necessitates use of tough, premium-grade bullets, not to mention the added recoil).

4 - If you ever go for a .375, get the H&H, not the Ruger. Although the Ruger is a very well-designed (and even better-marketed) cartridge, ammo availability will likely become a problem in a not-so-distant future. The H&H isn't going anywhere. Ever.

If I were you, I'd get the .404 for now and get it out of my system. In time, you'll come to appreciate the versatility and usefulness of the .375 H&H.

 

[IvW]

I am thinking 400 grain bullets for 404j at 2300 FPS?

420 is better.....SD....

 

[Jack Stevens]

I am thinking 400 grain bullets for 404j at 2300 FPS?

No! Unnecessary. The .404 Jeff was never intended to be a 416 Rigby.

MODERN .404J bullets of 400grns - launching at original .404 velocities of 2050fps-2100fps - will kill the Big Critters all day long. Elephant, rhino, water buffalo, et al.

Heck, Kynoch’s .404J ammo @1975fps (+/-) from a 23” barrel will kill the Big Stuff reliably. The key isn’t velocity; it’s the quality of the projectile to do the job. In other words, bullet tech.

 

[Fatback]

I have my 400 grain bullets leaving my 404Jeffery at 2150-2200 ft/sec and they did quite well on a large bull hippo. YMMV

 

[Nevada Mike]

I am thinking 400 grain bullets for 404j at 2300 FPS?

Probably optimal, but if recoil is a problem, you can go lower and still get great performance. I load a Swift A Frame or Barnes meplat type banded solids at 2250 or so and the 400 grain Swift AFs are a smack-down buffalo round with good accuracy.

 

[ACM]

I will say that an animal being hit hard & the way it reacts can be very specific to the individual animal. Boddington (& others) have stated that they have seen buffalo hit broadside, in the shoulder, & drop from a 375-class cartridge (not often though). He then states he has seen buffalo hit in the same spot w/ a 416-class & run 100yds. Some individual animals are just more tenacious & determined than others. This being said, any advantage in frontal area, sectional density, & energy definitely helps, but the difference may not be as much as the difference of the individual animal.
As far as classic goes: I like the 404J. I get that it is more rare & debuted 7 years earlier, BUT IMO the 375 H&H is equally as classic. There also may be a reason the H&H isn't as rare...components, rifle platforms, etc.
As far as bullet weight/velocity goes: I agree with pretty much all on heavy for caliber & moderate velocity (this is also more classic too). Where I deviate from this is when Barnes X bullets enter the equation, because a TSX will not fail from being pushed too fast. Barnes TSX love velocity & they will penetrate deeper the faster they are pushed. In terms of terminal performance, bullet construction is far more important than cartridge selection (within the same reasonable class).
You could not go wrong with either of these cartridges, but the 404J does get the nod on buffalo-range killing power.
The decision between THESE two should not be focused on killing power, but on personal preferences. If you really want to step up the killing power jump to the .458-class.

 

[Rare Breed]

No! Unnecessary. The .404 Jeff was never intended to be a 416 Rigby.

MODERN .404J bullets of 400grns - launching at original .404 velocities of 2050fps-2100fps - will kill the Big Critters all day long. Elephant, rhino, water buffalo, et al.

Heck, Kynoch’s .404J ammo @1975fps (+/-) from a 23” barrel will kill the Big Stuff reliably. The key isn’t velocity; it’s the quality of the projectile to do the job. In other words, bullet tech.

greatly appreciated!!!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I will say that an animal being hit hard & the way it reacts can be very specific to the individual animal. Boddington (& others) have stated that they have seen buffalo hit broadside, in the shoulder, & drop from a 375-class cartridge (not often though). He then states he has seen buffalo hit in the same spot w/ a 416-class & run 100yds. Some individual animals are just more tenacious & determined than others. This being said, any advantage in frontal area, sectional density, & energy definitely helps, but the difference may not be as much as the difference of the individual animal.
As far as classic goes: I like the 404J. I get that it is more rare & debuted 7 years earlier, BUT IMO the 375 H&H is equally as classic. There also may be a reason the H&H isn't as rare...components, rifle platforms, etc.
As far as bullet weight/velocity goes: I agree with pretty much all on heavy for caliber & moderate velocity (this is also more classic too). Where I deviate from this is when Barnes X bullets enter the equation, because a TSX will not fail from being pushed too fast. Barnes TSX love velocity & they will penetrate deeper the faster they are pushed. In terms of terminal performance, bullet construction is far more important than cartridge selection (within the same reasonable class).
You could not go wrong with either of these cartridges, but the 404J does get the nod on buffalo-range killing power.
The decision between THESE two should not be focused on killing power, but on personal preferences. If you really want to step up the killing power jump to the .458-class.

Two words that should always be in the back of every big bore shooter's mind: retina detachments. Folks who are diabetic or significantly near sighted are always at risk, but spontaneous detachments also occur in us "normal" folks, especially into late middle-age and beyond. As we hit those later years the vitreous fluid inside the eyeball starts to thicken and shrink. It can grab the retina and tear holes. Then the fluid gets between the retina and sclera (eyeball) and causes a detachment. Holes, if detected early enough, can be repaired with laser. This treatment as often as not is EXTREMELY painful! I liken it to a cattle prod going off inside my head ... continuously. A hole can become a detachment very quickly and if a detachment reaches the macula (where the optic nerve attaches), permanent blindness is almost a certainty. I can tell you from my own experience that this whole chain of events can unfold in less than a day. Detachment is an emergency situation that requires major surgery now! It won't wait for a flight back to Europe or North America. Also, surgery for a detachment in Africa, even if it could be arranged in time, invariably involves vitrectomy where some of the vitreous fluid is removed and replaced with a nitrous oxide gas bubble to hold the retina in place while it reattaches. Cannot fly in a plane for several weeks until the bubble dissipates.

My left eye has survived three major surgeries and more than a half dozen laser patch-ups. It wears a silicon buckle since 2003. The right eye had five laser treatments. Though I was at one time counseled to expect eventual blindness, I've been treatment free for a dozen years. My eye surgeon says shrinkage is over the hump, and several years ago he gave me the green light to shoot. Still, I am cautious. To mitigate recoil I shoot heavy guns and semiauto for shotgun. For my 404J build I left as much wood on the stock as possible and went with a heavy barrel taper. It weighs ten pounds unloaded. And 404 Jeffery is as big a gun as I will ever shoot.

The upshot of this tome is to caution some of you retired guys (especially diabetics and/or near sighted) to give serious thought before stepping up to 416 calibers and above. For almost three years I was essentially blind in my left eye before surgeon dared attempt removing the cataract (side effect of surgery). It's not fun stumbling on stairs and pouring coffee on the table. If you have a detachment somewhere in Africa it might be nearly impossible to get it repaired in time. Think about it. I've never been one to advocate living in a golden cage but I'm not careless either.

 

[Daisy]

If I were getting a rifle custom made, I'd get the 404. You can always pick up a 375 H&H or Ruger. They're for sale all day, every day. The 404s are hard to come by.

Wouldn’t one of the 416’s make more sense? Real question I don’t know answer.

 

[TOBY458]

I am thinking 400 grain bullets for 404j at 2300 FPS?

That's the velocity I load the 416 Rem mag to. Recoil is manageable, and worked very well on buffalo for me.