375 Ruger vs 375 H&H

[Tam Dl]

So given the option to use the gold standard that has plentiful ammunition everywhere, or to intentionally buy a cartridge designed to financially enrich Ruger by letting them use cheap guns to up their bottom line, I choose Option 1.

I'm not an American, but I can see the place across the lake which is more than is always the case from within. My observation is that they are 100% serious about the importance of short actions, or shorter actions. I don't agree at all, but I would not beat my head against that wall if I was in the business.

We are at a turning point with bolt actions, I think. Modern manufacturing doesn't necessarily care about action length, and we are in a place where options are less expensive than they once were, and actions can be cut to the length of the specific cartridge, without much increase in cost. I am not sure, though, how that works in the case of Ruger, where investment casting is part of the picture. But isn't someone like Sako or Weatherby, now making actions to cartridges, and there are similar things happening at custom makers as far as hyper detailing where you would be talking about a whole different rifle in the line-up, in an earlier day. The idea that someone would toss out the pre-64 action to make a few more bucks would not be as likely to happen these days. There are custom houses that offer different bolts as options, and many other features. Wilson is another company that now offers a rifle, and makes pistols that simply eliminate all problems with prior designs that can be solved by CNC machining.

If I was looking at where the fix was in, I would be looking at the power of marketing oddball cartridges that probably aren't needed, will soon be obsolete, and have two industry powerhouses behind them. This is also an exclusive deal, at least to the extent that if you want a Ruger cartridge, you will more likely go to them to get them.

 

[Tam Dl]

Of course my 7 1/2 lb (with scope) 375 Weatherby shoots factory 375 H&H ammo and gets 2550 fps with Woodliegh 350g HD Soft points

What happens if you try to import that rifle, and that H&H ammo into an African country that likes to see everything with the same stamp on it?

 

[375Ruger416]

Well, just finished reading through this thread. I’m looking for my first 375 and see it as some have mentioned in this thread - more affordable rifles with modern features such as composite or laminate stocks, cerakote, etc with the edge in durability - advantage ruger. More classic safari rifles with wood stocks and blued barrels with 24” actions and better availability of ammo overseas - advantage H&H.

I’ve decided I want a composite stock, cerakoted threaded barrel ~ 22”, integral mount if possible and CRF. As far as I can tell, such a thing does not exist - and I would be happy with either cartridge. The pros/cons of both cartridges are just not big enough to matter. The H&H is a great cartridge, the Ruger is its equal in a shorter action and barrel. Makes for a great argument because there’s no clear answer.

Buy the rifle you want in either cartridge and enjoy. As for me, defiance makes a deviant hunter action in a CRF variant but I hear it’s been discontinued . Neither the Ruger guide gun nor the Win model 70 are quite what I’m looking for.

The Sako 85 Kodiak and Kimber 8400 Takeetna come closest, but haven’t quite found what I’m looking for yet. The Nosler 21, Snowy Mountain Alaskan, Blaser R8, and the Gunwerks Skhul are all cool too, but none of them are quite right either (unavailable, expensive, push feed, etc). The hunt continues…

I suspect I shall end up with a Ruger Guide gun or a win 70 and have a smith do some work on it. Any recommendations for a good smith in Alberta preferably but Canada for sure who’s good with CRF’s?

 

[rookhawk]

Ever lose your ammo on a safari? Run out?

I’d like some ammo please. (Uproarious laughter ensues…none exists)

So you ring up every sympathetic PH on the Dark continent via WhatsApp begging for ammo. What do you find within 4-8 hours drive? 470NE, 458WM, 375HH, .308, and 30-06. Much lower odds of finding 500NE, 270w, 300WM, 404J, 416 rigby, and 7x57. Zero chance of anything else.

So with that in mind, remind me again why new invented cartridges to mimmic Performance of old cartridges is a good thing?

I’m sure the 376 Holland Super Pooper AI improved 40 degree is wonderful, with its 1% more efficient powder consumption and the 3/8” less drop at 900 yards, but in that moment you’ll be wishing you had a storied caliber in your hand in which you have a chance in hell of bumming a few rounds of ammo to continue your safari.

 

[RudiB]

375 H&H

 

[375Ruger416]

Ever lose your ammo on a safari? Run out?

I’d like some ammo please. (Uproarious laughter ensues…none exists)

So you ring up every sympathetic PH on the Dark continent via WhatsApp begging for ammo. What do you find within 4-8 hours drive? 470NE, 458WM, 375HH, .308, and 30-06. Much lower odds of finding 500NE, 270w, 300WM, 404J, 416 rigby, and 7x57. Zero chance of anything else.

So with that in mind, remind me again why new invented cartridges to mimmic Performance of old cartridges is a good thing?

I’m sure the 376 Holland Super Pooper AI improved 40 degree is wonderful, with its 1% more efficient powder consumption and the 3/8” less drop at 900 yards, but in that moment you’ll be wishing you had a storied caliber in your hand in which you have a chance in hell of bumming a few rounds of ammo to continue your safari.

Well, that settles it. 375 ruger all the way. I acknowledge the wider availability of 375 H&H overseas and it is definitely an advantage for that cartridge but the Ruger has its advantages too.

Whether they are significant to you or not I couldn’t give a damn. If I’m reduced to borrowing a rifle, I’ll borrow/rent a camp gun too and use ammo that that rifle is actually zeroed with. No big deal to me. In fact, I may end up doing that anyway until I find the right 375 rifle for me.

I’m contrarian by nature, so the fact that some, ahem, vintage proponents of a classic rifle round like the 375 H&H lose there -&/);2-!! minds if someone says ‘Ruger’ or ‘Creedmoor’ is a good enough reason to get one. I wonder if you would relate to the people who thought hunting Africa anything but a double rifle in a ‘classic’ caliber was crazy when that new fangled 375 H&H came out and helped popularize bolt actions in Africa.

Yes, the ruger is better. It is making rifles more affordable the same way the 375 H&H did when it came out. It is more efficient, better in shorter barrels and therefore better in suppressed rifles. The advantages to either don’t amount to a hill of beans to me, but why some people get positively religious about it baffles me. ‍

 

[Rule 303]

I am not sure he is being religious about it. What Roohawk is saying is nothing more than the facts of life, just being practical.

If you are OK with hiring a rifle when in Africa, go for it. Me, I like to use my own rifle and reloaded ammo, that is just me. With African airlines now requiring the ammo to be on its own and not in your checked luggage I think there is a greater chance of the ammo going walk about. Mind you it could go arse about and your ammo turns up, but no rifle or luggage

 

[DLSJR]

The .375 H&H has accounted for more large animals shot in Africa than any other cartridge, across its 111 year history.

The only niche Ruger improved upon with their offering was on their P&L and Balance Sheet, as the next animal shot more effectively with the Ruger vs. H&H will be the first animal killed better with one vs. the other. In other words, any animal shot with one would never react different if shot with the other.

The Ruger, while a fine cartridge, fixed a problem that never existed. A 300 grain .375 bullet going around 2,400 fps will kill anything just as dead and do it just as quickly as one going 2,500 or 2,600 fps.

 

[Daisy]

I am not sure he is being religious about it. What Roohawk is saying is nothing more than the facts of life, just being practical.

If you are OK with hiring a rifle when in Africa, go for it. Me, I like to use my own rifle and reloaded ammo, that is just me. With African airlines now requiring the ammo to be on its own and not in your checked luggage I think there is a greater chance of the ammo going walk about. Mind you it could go arse about and your ammo turns up, but no rifle or luggage

But here is the thing. If you worked up a great ammo load for your HH, and it didn’t show up, then you would be shooting your rifle with factory ammo you were not used too. Not exactly the same as using camp rifle, but at least that rifle would be sighted in and known to shoot well with the factory ammo.

Takes a bit of the oomph from the “what if your ammo didn’t arrive” argument imo.

 

[Daisy]

Well, that settles it. 375 ruger all the way. I acknowledge the wider availability of 375 H&H overseas and it is definitely an advantage for that cartridge but the Ruger has its advantages too.

Whether they are significant to you or not I couldn’t give a damn. If I’m reduced to borrowing a rifle, I’ll borrow/rent a camp gun too and use ammo that that rifle is actually zeroed with. No big deal to me. In fact, I may end up doing that anyway until I find the right 375 rifle for me.

I’m contrarian by nature, so the fact that some, ahem, vintage proponents of a classic rifle round like the 375 H&H lose there -&/);2-!! minds if someone says ‘Ruger’ or ‘Creedmoor’ is a good enough reason to get one. I wonder if you would relate to the people who thought hunting Africa anything but a double rifle in a ‘classic’ caliber was crazy when that new fangled 375 H&H came out and helped popularize bolt actions in Africa.

Yes, the ruger is better. It is making rifles more affordable the same way the 375 H&H did when it came out. It is more efficient, better in shorter barrels and therefore better in suppressed rifles. The advantages to either don’t amount to a hill of beans to me, but why some people get positively religious about it baffles me. ‍

Great choice imo. Just a better, more modern cartridge. Just no way to argue against that.

 

[Daisy]

The .375 H&H has accounted for more large animals shot in Africa than any other cartridge, across its 111 year history.

The only niche Ruger improved upon with their offering was on their P&L and Balance Sheet, as the next animal shot more effectively with the Ruger vs. H&H will be the first animal killed better with one vs. the other. In other words, any animal shot with one would never react different if shot with the other.

The Ruger, while a fine cartridge, fixed a problem that never existed. A 300 grain .375 bullet going around 2,400 fps will kill anything just as dead and do it just as quickly as one going 2,500 or 2,600 fps.

The m1 Garand has taken more enemy combatants than any other rifle. But I doubt you would run in to battle with one today…

 

[Tam Dl]

I see this kind of thing in NA all the time. A lot of theory, devoid of practical application, and then one walks out into the real world, where all that talk means nothing. To be contrarian out of boring conformity to one's own ego, I mean wouldn't that be an admission of stupidity? There is nothing wrong with being an out of the box thinker, but to take contrary positions for lack of a better idea is convention. It is pretty hard to have original thoughts on something that is a product of marketing departments.

Hunting with guides is a team sport, if they spend all their time trying to find your lost luggage because you thought an extra 10th of an inch throw in your rifle was critical... well probably all the laughter at night won't be the hyenas.

Don't get me wrong. I don't get out as much as a guide does, and I love to substitute a lot of internet chat about "essential features". I just leave it at home where it belongs. It's just me, maybe, but I never care about that kind of thing when I am out there doing stuff. Reliability becomes the main thing when I am at it.

Since this is the internet... Funny to say that some of the classic ivory hunters did bring up the fact that for them, having a rifle with a longer throw actually did make them miss the occasional beat. But that is never what I hear about it. That would be a reliability argument. It is always some thinking gleaned from a writer who has to sell magazines that stay alive by selling meaningless differences in the latest thing. Too bad the internet doesn't spare us from that. I know I am not getting paid.

 

[Tam Dl]

The m1 Garand has taken more enemy combatants than any other rifle. But I doubt you would run in to battle with one today…

The M14 is still out there. And the main disadvantage to the Garand was the magazine, but that does not track here. Available rifles are identical, I was just looking at a Ruger 77 in 375 H&H the other day. Decided against it because it had a split in the stock, and given the stock was very nice, one was paying a premium for a broken stock...

 

[DLSJR]

The m1 Garand has taken more enemy combatants than any other rifle. But I doubt you would run in to battle with one today…

With no intent to disrespect, be rude or embarrass you, I must say that’s a really lousy analogy. Here’s why…. The .375 rifles used in hunting are mostly all quite similar. They’re nearly all bolt actions, shoot a cartridge that has very little practical difference and when all is said and done, shoot the exact same bullet at damn near the same velocity. The practical effect on game shot with one or the other simply does not exist. The .375 Ruger simply doesn’t kill any African game better or quicker than the H&H does, all other factors being equal.

The military rifle example you cited has been dramatically improved upon since the days that soldiers carried M1’s into battle. Todays combat rifles and that little 5.56 cartridge are vastly superior as they allow a soldier to carry far more ammo and use a far lighter rifle that recoils significantly less. Now, while a .30 caliber bullet going perhaps 2,600 feet per second is certainly lethal, the ability to very quickly fire 35 rounds of .223 bullets going around 3,400 feet per second is significantly more lethal in combat situations.

I get the point you were trying to make but your analogy simply doesn’t apply.

 

[Daisy]

With no intent to disrespect, be rude or embarrass you, I must say that’s a really lousy analogy. Here’s why…. The .375 rifles used in hunting are mostly all quite similar. They’re nearly all bolt actions, shoot a cartridge that has very little practical difference and when all is said and done, shoot the exact same bullet at damn near the same velocity. The practical effect on game shot with one or the other simply does not exist. The .375 Ruger simply doesn’t kill any African game better or quicker than the H&H does, all other factors being equal.

The military rifle example you cited has been dramatically improved upon since the days that soldiers carried M1’s into battle. Todays combat rifles and that little 5.56 cartridge are vastly superior as they a soldier to carry far more ammo and use a far lighter rifle that recoils significantly less. Now, while a .30 caliber bullet going perhaps 2,600 feet per second is certainly lethal, the ability to very quickly fire 35 rounds of .223 bullets going around 3,400 feet per second is significantly more lethal in combat situations.

I get the point you were trying to make but your analogy simply doesn’t apply.

Maybe, just maybe, you don’t want it to apply.

No disrespect either. I can appreciate sticking with what works. Using things that have a history is cool, and I do it alot in my life.

That said, the 375 ruger is a better cartridge. Period. I think it’s fine to admit that AND say you appreciate the nostalgia of hunting with the same cartridge used 111 years ago.

The benefit if the extra velocity is not killing an animal more dead. It is the advantage of killing with same velocity at HH with shorter barrel. Or, using a suppressor which decreases felt recoil and sound, giving you a clear advantage shooting an animal. Is that even in question?

I just find it funny for dangerous game all the things people talk about for safety. Yet, having 4” less barrel, in my opinion, ranks up there with any of the other things people here harp on for safety. Or using a suppressor which helps you make a better shot. The main reason I hear people use here for not using a suppressor is “it doesn’t look cool on your rifle.” How does that jive with all the other talk about safety in a dangerous game hunt?

Of note, I would carry a 308/7.62 into battle not a 5.56. Tactical rifles are my thing, and what I focused on for years before venturing into the black hole of Africa hunting and large calibers

 

[DLSJR]

Maybe, just maybe, you don’t want it to apply.

No disrespect either. I can appreciate sticking with what works. Using things that have a history is cool, and I do it alot in my life.

That said, the 375 ruger is a better cartridge. Period. I think it’s fine to admit that AND say you appreciate the nostalgia of hunting with the same cartridge used 111 years ago.

The benefit if the extra velocity is not killing an animal more dead. It is the advantage of killing with same velocity at HH with shorter barrel. Or, using a suppressor which decreases felt recoil and sound, giving you a clear advantage shooting an animal. Is that even in question?

I just find it funny for dangerous game all the things people talk about for safety. Yet, having 4” less barrel, in my opinion, ranks up there with any of the other things people here harp on for safety. Or using a suppressor which helps you make a better shot. The main reason I hear people use here for not using a suppressor is “it doesn’t look cool on your rifle.” How does that jive with all the other talk about safety in a dangerous game hunt?

Of note, I would carry a 308/7.62 into battle not a 5.56. Tactical rifles are my thing, and what I focused on for years before venturing into the black hole of Africa hunting and large calibers

You’re splitting hairs, and if you’ve done much dangerous game hunting (IDK, maybe you’ve done it a lot more than me?) you should know that very insignificant differences don’t matter in real world.

I've shot enough dangerous game, and of all dangerous species, with different rifles to have a decent idea of what works well. So, when I had a new medium rifle built recently, I went with a .375 H&H and 24” barrel. And that is because the perceived disadvantage of handling with a 24” barrel vs a 20” barrel, especially when the shorter barrel has a metallic condom slipped onto the end…. Simply does not exist.

I have bigger and smaller calibers, but filled a gap between .338 & .416. If I do add another DG cartridge, it’ll be another double in 470NE, because it’s as practical for a client hunter as any other double chambering, and better than most. A lot like the .375 H&H is in bolt rifles.

 

[Daisy]

You’re splitting hairs, and if you’ve done much dangerous game hunting (IDK, maybe you’ve done it a lot more than me?) you should know that very insignificant differences don’t matter in real world.

I've shot enough dangerous game, and of all dangerous species, with different rifles to have a decent idea of what works well. So, when I had a new medium rifle built recently, I went with a .375 H&H and 24” barrel. And that is because the perceived disadvantage of handling with a 24” barrel vs a 20” barrel, especially when the shorter barrel has a metallic condom slipped onto the end…. Simply does not exist.

I have bigger and smaller calibers, but filled a gap between .338 & .416. If I do add another DG cartridge, it’ll be another double in 470NE, because it’s as practical for a client hunter as any other double chambering, and better than most. A lot like the .375 H&H is in bolt rifles.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

On my first DG hunt next year, I will be using a 416 anyways.

And please, oh please, don’t get me into double rifles. My wife and my wallet can’t handle it!

Happy new year my man. Enjoyed the convo.

 

[Tam Dl]

Great choice imo. Just a better, more modern cartridge. Just no way to argue against that.

It can certainly be argued it isn't better, even on the merits of the cartridge. In overseas hunting there is normally a bias towards commercial ammo, at least at the destination. Fully loaded, the Ruger it more recoil from lighter rifles, and heavier loads. Maybe more muzzle blast due to shorter barrels and certainly if one is unmutual enough to shoot the muzzle brakes Ruger seems to think were necessary as part of the package, in a group setting. But according to Boddington, there is no discernible difference in killing or stopping power, the ballistic difference is just too close. He tested 6 rifles and the velocities out of the 375s were nearly identical when shot from the matching barrels. From a 375 H&H, these are typically 25 inch barrels, and for the Ruger the standard is 22. Even the H&H with the 22 inch barrel was only 60-100fps slower than the Rugers. Generally longer barrels are favoured until the bush gets really tight.

I generally prefer unimproved cartridges for feeding. At the very least, one would have to admit that "improving" cartridges, making them lower aspect ratio, blunter shouldered, and fatter, is not done to improve their feeding in manually operated platforms.

These short, fat, cartridges are a huge marketing win, less barrel length, shorter actions, proprietary cartridges, a classic less for more, like the Big Mac.

Generally, calling things "modern" is just the terrorist aesthetic/Jacobin approach. Things from Marxism to DQ Storytime all get the same treatment. But it is effective.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Ever lose your ammo on a safari? Run out?

I’d like some ammo please. (Uproarious laughter ensues…none exists)

So you ring up every sympathetic PH on the Dark continent via WhatsApp begging for ammo. What do you find within 4-8 hours drive? 470NE, 458WM, 375HH, .308, and 30-06. Much lower odds of finding 500NE, 270w, 300WM, 404J, 416 rigby, and 7x57. Zero chance of anything else.

So with that in mind, remind me again why new invented cartridges to mimmic Performance of old cartridges is a good thing?

I’m sure the 376 Holland Super Pooper AI improved 40 degree is wonderful, with its 1% more efficient powder consumption and the 3/8” less drop at 900 yards, but in that moment you’ll be wishing you had a storied caliber in your hand in which you have a chance in hell of bumming a few rounds of ammo to continue your safari.

Actually, no I have never lost my ammo or run out. If either of these scenarios did happen, borrowing a gun would be the likely option.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I am not sure he is being religious about it. What Roohawk is saying is nothing more than the facts of life, just being practical.

If you are OK with hiring a rifle when in Africa, go for it. Me, I like to use my own rifle and reloaded ammo, that is just me. With African airlines now requiring the ammo to be on its own and not in your checked luggage I think there is a greater chance of the ammo going walk about. Mind you it could go arse about and your ammo turns up, but no rifle or luggage

African airlines requiring the ammo be separated is nothing new. They've been doing that for quite some time.