358 and 308 Bullets Question Bear Hunting

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Wipartimer my brother has shot both well if I recall. But I'm warming up to the 308 idea a bit. It can use a suppressor which is nice. No muzzle blast to distract me while I watch as back him up. Of course I want it to be his kill so I'm hoping he downs it without help.

@Alaska Luke
Go with the 358.
A lot more punch at close range and a BIGGER hole to start with.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

What's wrong with the Speer? Obviously it might not be ideal to smash a shoulder. But at 25 yards you freeze if the bear is facing you, you shoot when the bear isn't looking (i.e. broadside).

@Alaska Luke
Nothing wrong with the Speer hotcore. I think they are under rated. A mate shot a big billygoat with a piddly little 25/20 @75 yards with a 70grain Speer hotcore. It broke the shoulder blade destroyed the internals , broke ribs on the other side and kept going out the skin. Result 1 very dead goat.
I have used the 220grain hotcore on big pigs =s dead hogs.
You could always consult balistic studies by Nathan . He has tested a bucket load of projectiles. Easy reading and great info
I have attached where to find it
Bob

 

[Viral_SIGness]

My brother is coming up to Alaska and the plan is to ambush a bear from a blind. Could be a 200 pound black bear or a 400-800 pound grizzly.

My way question relates to HIS rifle. I will be backing him up with a 375 Ruger. I am totally happy with my rifle. My brothers choices are limited because I can't get the ammo and/or reloading components I might prefer. So here are his choices.

He could use my 358 Winchester. Load is a 225 grain Swiift A Frame going 2416 fps. Or a 220 Speer at the same velocity. My concern with these is I've never used an A frame for anything. If he takes a broadside shot through the ribs will the A Frame be too tough? The ribs of an average grizzly aren't that thick, typically black bears are whitetail sized here. Too tough could be a problem.

308 with a hot load pushing a 200 grain Partition at 2465 fps. Now I know the 308 is light but the shot will be close, probably 25 yards. So the actual impact velocity will be roughly were a 30-06 would be at 100 yards. And I know the Nosler Partition well.

There really are no other options. The 358 bullets available seem either too hard for a broadside (A Frame) or to soft for a shoulder bone (Speer) based on anecdotal repo. The 308 is a bit lighter but the bullet has better SD and should do serious damage on a broadside shot.

Thoughts? If someone tells me an A Frame will open fast and make a mess of the lungs in a small grizzly we'll do that. But I'd prefer a 308 that expands to a 358 that punches through like a solid.

I'd use a 150 or 165 grain TSX in the .308. They just look tough, when they really aren't. Why not let him use your .375 ? Does he flinch when shooting it?

On a completely different note, @Letzhunt has a .375 Ruger for sale here in the forum.

 

[7x57Joe]

I used the Speer 250 grain HotCor in my .358 when hunting elk and they worked to perfection but, I hunted black timber and the ranges were less than 75 yards. I believe in your situation with only the 2 bullets mentioned for the .358 either will provide exemplary performance with a well placed shot.

 

[Jarrah]

I would not use a .308 for anything dangerous up close.

I used to use a .308 for most of my hunting and have seen far too many large pigs and deer hit solidly, sometimes with multiple shots and still keep on running. Some of them, especially large angry boars (with the exception of head shots) will just keep on going and going - sure they are going to die, but it can still take quite some time for them to realise it which could potentially be a real problem if they decided to go for you, hopefully your close-up charge stopping skills are up to the task!

Now I use the .375 Weatherby magnum for everything and besides being loads of fun to shoot, I know that it will anchor any medium sized game on the spot.

 

[Alaska Luke]

I'm not comfortable with the 375 for a couple reasons. The LOP is to short, I'm 5 ft 8in. My brother is 6ft 2in. And it's a very light 375. So I'm nervous he might flinch.

I'm leaning towards the 308 because it's got a better trigger and a more comfortable stock for a guy with longer arms. But we'll see.

 

[MS 9x56]

I would not use a .308 for anything dangerous up close.

I used to use a .308 for most of my hunting and have seen far too many large pigs and deer hit solidly, sometimes with multiple shots and still keep on running. Some of them, especially large angry boars (with the exception of head shots) will just keep on going and going - sure they are going to die, but it can still take quite some time for them to realise it which could potentially be a real problem if they decided to go for you, hopefully your close-up charge stopping skills are up to the task!

Now I use the .375 Weatherby magnum for everything and besides being loads of fun to shoot, I know that it will anchor any medium sized game on the spot.

I was hunting wild boar in Georgia with my Savage model 99 in 308. Had a very large boar cross a food plot 80 yards out hit him solidly in the front shoulder with 180 grain core lock round nose. Following up with my buddy I saw the boar about 50 yards in front of me in a slight depression facing away from me. I hollered to my buddy”I see him” . Hog jumped up swapped ends and charged. I put 5 more rounds into him finally dropping him literally at the end of my gun barrel. We had other friends hunting the same farm that later couldn’t believe that I wasn’t shooting a semiauto. It’s amazing how fast you can shuck a lever when properly motivated. Got home from the trip and told my wife I gotta get me a bigger gun. Been shooting 358 and 9.3 x62 ever since. Hog dressed out at 473 pounds. I still hunt with the 308 but only critters that won’t run at me.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I was hunting wild boar in Georgia with my Savage model 99 in 308. Had a very large boar cross a food plot 80 yards out hit him solidly in the front shoulder with 180 grain core lock round nose. Following up with my buddy I saw the boar about 50 yards in front of me in a slight depression facing away from me. I hollered to my buddy”I see him” . Hog jumped up swapped ends and charged. I put 5 more rounds into him finally dropping him literally at the end of my gun barrel. We had other friends hunting the same farm that later couldn’t believe that I wasn’t shooting a semiauto. It’s amazing how fast you can shuck a lever when properly motivated. Got home from the trip and told my wife I gotta get me a bigger gun. Been shooting 358 and 9.3 x62 ever since. Hog dressed out at 473 pounds. I still hunt with the 308 but only critters that won’t run at me.

@MS 9x56
It's,surprising how much just necking the 308 up to 358 makes such a big difference in hitting power we ith stunning only 45 grains difference in bullet weights.
The 358 just kill like it has no right to.
Bob

 

[Rick HOlbert]

My brother is coming up to Alaska and the plan is to ambush a bear from a blind. Could be a 200 pound black bear or a 400-800 pound grizzly.

My way question relates to HIS rifle. I will be backing him up with a 375 Ruger. I am totally happy with my rifle. My brothers choices are limited because I can't get the ammo and/or reloading components I might prefer. So here are his choices.

He could use my 358 Winchester. Load is a 225 grain Swiift A Frame going 2416 fps. Or a 220 Speer at the same velocity. My concern with these is I've never used an A frame for anything. If he takes a broadside shot through the ribs will the A Frame be too tough? The ribs of an average grizzly aren't that thick, typically black bears are whitetail sized here. Too tough could be a problem.

308 with a hot load pushing a 200 grain Partition at 2465 fps. Now I know the 308 is light but the shot will be close, probably 25 yards. So the actual impact velocity will be roughly were a 30-06 would be at 100 yards. And I know the Nosler Partition well.

There really are no other options. The 358 bullets available seem either too hard for a broadside (A Frame) or to soft for a shoulder bone (Speer) based on anecdotal repo. The 308 is a bit lighter but the bullet has better SD and should do serious damage on a broadside shot.

Thoughts? If someone tells me an A Frame will open fast and make a mess of the lungs in a small grizzly we'll do that. But I'd prefer a 308 that expands to a 358 that punches through like a solid.

Luke, as a long time shooter of both cartridge's I've got to give my vote to the 358. I love the 308.I've taken a lot of game with it. BUT, the 358 cuts a bigger wound channel and has a lot more retained energy. The 358 was designed to replace the 348 Winchester which back in the day was considered to be strong bear medicine for grizzlies. As a handloader for 57 years I've conducted experiments on various bullets. My choice would be the 225grn Swift A-Frame. It'll still expand at 358 velocities but should the shot not be ideal will still penetrate and break heavy bone. Because that front core is bonded to the jacket it will not wipe off like the Nosler sometimes does. To this day I still for the life of me figure why the 358 didn't become more popular, although there seems to be a renewed interest in it now days. Have a great hunt and looking forward to hearing how you made out.

 

[sgt_zim]

you'll be fine with the Swift at 2400 fps. Its pure copper jacket is in fact a bit softer than most gilding metal jackets (like Nosler, Speer, etc)

 

[MS 9x56]

@MS 9x56
It's,surprising how much just necking the 308 up to 358 makes such a big difference in hitting power we ith stunning only 45 grains difference in bullet weights.
The 358 just kill like it has no right to.
Bob

Bigger holes, copious blood trails, shorter blood trails, one shot kill, what’s not to love?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bigger holes, copious blood trails, shorter blood trails, one shot kill, what’s not to love?

@MS 9x56
That's why I love the 35s big holes and if I do my bit one shot kills.
When we lost the use of semi autos in Australia I thought If'n I can't put a lot of holes in stuff, I'll just put bigger holes in stuff. Heaps more fun.
Bob

 

[MS 9x56]

@MS 9x56
That's why I love the 35s big holes and if I do my bit one shot kills.
When we lost the use of semi autos in Australia I thought If'n I can't put a lot of holes in stuff, I'll just put bigger holes in stuff. Heaps more fun.
Bob

You are a true renaissance man Bob.

 

[bruce moulds]

are you saying that bob and the 35 cal are still back in the renaissance?
well i suppose that is better than the middle ages.
bruce.

 

[ldmay375]

I personally would go with the 358 Winchester and the Swift 225 grain A-Frame.
If 25-50 yards is the distance and a 2400 FPS starting velocity, I would not worry about expansion nor penetration.
My bet is that combination will leave a mark, that no bear of either type will erase.

My brother is coming up to Alaska and the plan is to ambush a bear from a blind. Could be a 200 pound black bear or a 400-800 pound grizzly.

My way question relates to HIS rifle. I will be backing him up with a 375 Ruger. I am totally happy with my rifle. My brothers choices are limited because I can't get the ammo and/or reloading components I might prefer. So here are his choices.

He could use my 358 Winchester. Load is a 225 grain Swiift A Frame going 2416 fps. Or a 220 Speer at the same velocity. My concern with these is I've never used an A frame for anything. If he takes a broadside shot through the ribs will the A Frame be too tough? The ribs of an average grizzly aren't that thick, typically black bears are whitetail sized here. Too tough could be a problem.

308 with a hot load pushing a 200 grain Partition at 2465 fps. Now I know the 308 is light but the shot will be close, probably 25 yards. So the actual impact velocity will be roughly were a 30-06 would be at 100 yards. And I know the Nosler Partition well.

There really are no other options. The 358 bullets available seem either too hard for a broadside (A Frame) or to soft for a shoulder bone (Speer) based on anecdotal repo. The 308 is a bit lighter but the bullet has better SD and should do serious damage on a broadside shot.

Thoughts? If someone tells me an A Frame will open fast and make a mess of the lungs in a small grizzly we'll do that. But I'd prefer a 308 that expands to a 358 that punches through like a solid.

 

[Alaska Luke]

Seems like the 358 with Swift A Frames is the consensus. If my brother shoots it well we'll go with that. If not my suppressed 308 is very user friendly.

 

[bruce moulds]

good choice luke.
were it not for the 800 lb bear the choice would be simpler.
the 308 is marginal for 800 lb horses, and even then only with well selected and performed shots.
and horses are not carniverous with claws.
bruce.

 

[ChrisG]

In my opinion having shot a couple black bear (no grizz yet), either of those guns will work just fine to 250 yards or more. My vote is for the .358. I love mine and with a 225 A-Frame, it will have no problem dropping any bear on the planet if the bullet goes where it will do the most good.

 

[Alaska Luke]

On a different note, has anyone tried Cutting Edge Bullets in a 358? Not for bear. But a 160 grain CEB could go pretty fast out of a 358 if I wanted to shoot a bit farther.

 

[ChrisG]

On a different note, has anyone tried Cutting Edge Bullets in a 358? Not for bear. But a 160 grain CEB could go pretty fast out of a 358 if I wanted to shoot a bit farther

It looks like it would be ok for lighter game. The issue with the .358 is I don't think you'd be able to fit enough powder in the case to push it much faster than a 180 goes. My loads for a 200 grain bullet arent even close to max using Win 748 and the almost fills the case to the top. You wouldnt fit any more powder in there and so with a lighter bullet, you might even lose speed.