>35 Whelen versus. 338 Win Mag TKO values (modified)

[Saul]

That would be good, I have a 35Sambar (358/325 WSM) and a 358/338 RUM. Yeah, I am bit of a 358Cal fan.

Now you just need a 358 STA to round it out.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Nope and don't intend to as I don't have a 338, also what works for one might not work for the other. If there is a powder that will lift the 338 how come nobody has found it and using it. I wish I could get some CFE223.



That would be good, I have a 35Sambar (358/325 WSM) and a 358/338 RUM. Yeah, I am bit of a 358Cal fan.

Well, when Townsend @Bob Nelson 35Whelen stops procrastinating and builds his wildcat .35BNE (Banzai Nelson Express) .35/7.7 Japanese on an Arisaka 99 action, he’ll leave all the .35 ballistics in camel dust. LOL

 

[CZDiesel]

Nope and don't intend to as I don't have a 338, also what works for one might not work for the other. If there is a powder that will lift the 338 how come nobody has found it and using it. I wish I could get some CFE223.



That would be good, I have a 35Sambar (358/325 WSM) and a 358/338 RUM. Yeah, I am bit of a 358Cal fan.

I’m not sure what you are talking about? The factory 300gr 338WinMag were loaded at 2400fps 60 years ago and with standard powders can get to 2500fps now!
And this isn’t with any of the new wonder powders…
Again the 35 Wheelen is a great round but it’s no 338WinMag!!!

https://bergerbullets.com/pdf/338-Winchester-Magnum-300gr.pdf

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Impressive! Very impressive! And as we know this would stand true for the 338…
Having said that and as I have said I want to build a short barrel Pre-64 Manlicher stocked rifle in the 35 Whelen! Love it!
It’s just if it were me, yes me and the chips were down I know in my heart the 338 WinMag is the better choice for me!
And there is seriously no discussion which one is a better long range round!

@CZDiesel
No discussion needed.
The Whelen wins hands down even at ranges out past 450 yards
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob

 

[CZDiesel]

@CZDiesel
No discussion needed.
The Whelen wins hands down even at ranges out past 450 yards
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob

I like you Bob! Seriously you got grit!!!

 

[shootist~]

I like to compare different calibers using Chuck Hawks' Killing Power formula. It's somewhat subjective as well, but just as logical as any other, IMO.

Formula: K = (Ft Lbs at some common distance) x SD (sectional density) x A (area of bullet's cross section)

Energy "taken at some common distance" is important because how often do you shoot game at the muzzle? I calculate the energy at 100 and 200 yards.

338 bullets (225 grain for example) have higher values for both BC and SD compared to the same weight of 358 bullets. Also, there is a better choice of premium bullets in 338. This is especially true for mono metal bullets.

Barnes has both the higher BC TTSX (BC=.514) and the TSX available in 225 grain for the 338; but only the TSX is available in 358 caliber (BC = .359).

Starting both at the same V results in higher retained energy for the 338 at 100 and 200 yards (and beyond). The Whelen has a slight advantage in A (area of bullet's cross section), but not enough to overcome the loss of velocity (and Energy) and the lower SD.

For those two bullets - with both starting at 2,800 fps, the 338 WM wins at 100 yards with a K value of 88.0 to the Whelen's 83.9.

I also checked Hornady for their version of a 225 grain mono metal bullet and they don't offer one in 358 cal. (They do in 338.)

To be fair to @Bob Nelson 35Whelen I looked up the 225 grain Nosler Accubond (BC = .421) and plugged that into my spreadsheet. That brought the Whelen's K value up to 86.0 at it's 100 yd energy level. Close but no cigar.

 

[yamoon]

@CZDiesel
No discussion needed.
The Whelen wins hands down even at ranges out past 450 yards
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob

338 always reminded me of my high school math teacher, short neck with a fat belt. I don’t own either, but as a reloader, all that cheap 30-06 brass out there would swing my vote to the 35 Whelen. I will just keep shooting my 8x57s, both the I and the IS, they will kill every thing I will hunt.
Mike

 

[sestoppelman]

In my Model 70 I got 2830 with the 250 gr bullet. Energy over 4400 lbs.

Whelen cant safely do that, end of story.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I like you Bob! Seriously you got grit!!!

@CZDiesel
Thanks mate
Most people just say I'm full of shit
Bob

 

[CZDiesel]

@CZDiesel
Thanks mate
Most people just say I'm full of shit
Bob

Na, you’re willing to die on that hill for what you believe in and I respect that! Now if you were saying something like the 25-06 was equal or better then yup, you’re crazy lol
But the 35 Whelen is a damn fine round and damn capable too! I like it! I just like the 338WinMag a lot more, it’s one of the Holy Trinity you see …

 

[Rule 303]

I’m not sure what you are talking about? The factory 300gr 338WinMag were loaded at 2400fps 60 years ago and with standard powders can get to 2500fps now!
And this isn’t with any of the new wonder powders…
Again the 35 Wheelen is a great round but it’s no 338WinMag!!!

https://bergerbullets.com/pdf/338-Winchester-Magnum-300gr.pdf

But that is with a powder that is not temp stable so could ended up with the rifle busted.

 

[Rule 303]

Shootist that chart of yours is very subjective. You choose a bullet that is not liked by a lot of people, PH included. The Barnes often fails to open up enough to do the job. The mono's (And I like some of them) have to be within their designed velocity parameters to work properly. On big game I don't think there should be a problem, so in the 338 and 35 Whelen should, I say should not be a problem. If used on lighter/smaller game then they have problems.

Now if we really want to compare apples with apples then it would be the 338WM and 358Norma mag.

 

[CZDiesel]

But that is with a powder that is not temp stable so could ended up with the rifle busted.

What are you talking about? Seriously, what are you saying?

 

[sestoppelman]

I think its safe to say that the Norma would have the edge.

Shootist that chart of yours is very subjective. You choose a bullet that is not liked by a lot of people, PH included. The Barnes often fails to open up enough to do the job. The mono's (And I like some of them) have to be within their designed velocity parameters to work properly. On big game I don't think there should be a problem, so in the 338 and 35 Whelen should, I say should not be a problem. If used on lighter/smaller game then they have problems.

Now if we really want to compare apples with apples then it would be the 338WM and 358Norma mag.

 

[shootist~]

Shootist that chart of yours is very subjective. You choose a bullet that is not liked by a lot of people, PH included. The Barnes often fails to open up enough to do the job. The mono's (And I like some of them) have to be within their designed velocity parameters to work properly. On big game I don't think there should be a problem, so in the 338 and 35 Whelen should, I say should not be a problem. If used on lighter/smaller game then they have problems.

Now if we really want to compare apples with apples then it would be the 338WM and 358Norma mag.

I'll have to disagree on what PH's (at least some, anyway) say about the current Barnes crop of bullets - especially for heavy thick skinned animals.

My outfitter for an upcoming Naigai hunt in S. Texas recommends Barnes over anything else - based on years of experience. Nilgai bulls are big (up to 600 lbs), thick skinned, and very hard to put down. Plus shots can be on the long side.

I'm loading a 338 210 grain Barnes TTSX at 2,900 fps and hoping it does not open too quickly!

My DG PH in Africa also preferred Barnes - at least for the 9.3 and 375 calibers. (I used Swift A-Frames, but would choose Barnes if I have another opportunity).

But regardless of bullet type, if shooting the same weight (225 grains in this case), every 338 bullet I've referenced has a higher BC and SD than the corresponding 358 bullet.

The updated TKO math used by the OP is at the muzzle, btw with no regards to retained energy at some normal distance. Also it has no allowance for SD.

Also, my understanding of TKO is it was used primarily to compare different bullet weights of the same caliber. I read that on the internet so it must be true.

But sure, if hunting smaller thin skinned animals, the bullet choice should be matched up accordingly. Likewise for the anticipated distance.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Sectional Density must matter when it comes to the typical game that these two medium bores are used for (large deer, antelope and dangerous game species).

The 338 gets the nod in this regard.

200 gr .338 = 0.250 S.D.
200gr .358 = 0.223 S.D.

225 gr .338 = 0.281 S.D.
225 gr .358 = 0.251 S.D.

250 gr .338 = .313 S.D
250 gr .358 = 0.279 S.D.

300 gr .338 = .375 S.D.
300 gr .358 = .334 S.D.

 

[Rule 303]

What are you talking about? Seriously, what are you saying?

Have a look at the emoji at the end of that sentence. It is a piss take, nothing more nothing less.

Shootist, I do not think I made myself clear enough. On heavy/large game I do not think the Barnes would be a problem. I believe the problems surface with smaller thin boned animals.

I personally have had Barnes bullets designed for the 6.8SPC fail to open on goats and pigs at less than 20 mts, yes heart shots not shoulder shots. The PH's I am talking of I believe were talking about smaller animals.

I would expect 338 bullets to have a better SD than 358 of the same weight and design.

 

[CZDiesel]

Have a look at the emoji at the end of that sentence. It is a piss take, nothing more nothing less.

Shootist, I do not think I made myself clear enough. On heavy/large game I do not think the Barnes would be a problem. I believe the problems surface with smaller thin boned animals.

I personally have had Barnes bullets designed for the 6.8SPC fail to open on goats and pigs at less than 20 mts, yes heart shots not shoulder shots. The PH's I am talking of I believe were talking about smaller animals.

I would expect 338 bullets to have a better SD than 358 of the same weight and design.

Ok, you got me! Went over my head lol

 

[Deepfork]

In my Model 70 I got 2830 with the 250 gr bullet. Energy over 4400 lbs.

Whelen cant safely do that, end of story.

I shoot a 245gr Hammer from my 35 Whelen at 2812fps quite safely, energy is 4300!

 

[Rule 303]

Ok, you got me! Went over my head lol

I should have put the stirring icon in there but for the life of me I couldn't find it. Just having a blokes look as not long after I found it.