.340 Weatherby Magnum

[One Day...]

... And truthfully I don't think Pascal the French Crack Shot would be sweating much either.

Ah, ah, ah, not quite, not quite!

French I was borne indeed, but a Crack Shot I never was. Although I wish. Let me share the secret...

It is just that I have realized quite a while ago that to take an animal down cleanly, one actually does not really need pin-point, paper-punching accuracy. Based on common sense observation, and confirmed in Jack O'Connor's book The Hunting Rifle and other sources, the vital areas of common game are:
- Pronghorn / small deer / small African antelopes: ~8" to 9"
- Medium size deer / medium African antelope: ~10" to 11"
- Large deer / North American wild sheep / mountain goat: ~11" to 14"
- Elk / large African antelope: ~14" to 16"
- Moose / Eland: ~18" to 21"

So, bottom line: since 1 MOA is approximately 1" at 100 yd, 2" at 200 yd; 3" at 300 yd; 4" at 400 yd; etc. one does not need to be a 1 MOA shooter (i.e. a Crack Shot) to connect. One is much better served by being a consistent and reliable 3 MOA field-position shooter. That will keep the shot somewhere inside a 9" circle at 300 yd, which will put reliably any big game that walks in the salt.

Yep, I can generally hold 1 MOA from the bench or the bipod (one needs to, in order to be effective on steel at 1,000 yd, because by then 1 MOA is 10"), but I certainly cannot do it from field positions, so I am no Crack Shot. But it does not bother me at all, because I do not need to be. I do not care if I hit a few inches high or a few inches low, or right, or left, as long as I stay in the boiler room. Heck, on Elk / Moose / Wildebeest / Hartebeest / Kudu / Eland / etc. I can even be a 4 MOA field position shooter within 400 yd, it will still go down cleanly. There is a lot of room between heart and spine on these big boys...

This is why I keep saying: "From a .340 Wby, a 250 gr. Nosler Partition launched at 2,940 fps will be +4" @ 100 yd; +5" @ 200 yd; 0 @ 300 yd; -11" @ 400 yd. This means that on game typically shot with the .340 Wby (elk/wildebeest and up), from 0 to 250 yd you hold the horizontal cross hair on the belly line and let the bullet climb into the heart, at 300 yd you aim dead center, and at 400 yd you hold the horizontal cross hair on the shoulder line and let the bullet drop into the lungs. Simple. Deadly."

Here we go, the beans have been spilled, sorry to disappoint, @Von S. LOL

PS: and yep, I feel OK, if not perfect, with the .340 Wby in chance encounters self-defense with DG. It will do the job if I do mine.

 

[TTundra]

@One Day... I must say this has been an interesting thread to read. Its been quite the relief hearing real world occurrences and seeing the data (from you in addition to the other contributors) rather than the somewhat typical banter of Weatherby cartridges being "blah blah...insert joke....'XXX cartridge' is a better choice".

I find the 340 to be a great fit for its game category and certainly capable for below and above if necessary or willing to those whom practice. Certainly on my list especially having done a range day with one recently.

 

[bruce moulds]

this thread has been well worth the reading.
having done so here are my conclusions.
the 340 is well worth investing in if it suits your purpose.
i was thinking of doing away with the 9.3x64 and replacing it with a 340 for desert shooting of large ferals in aust.
i wanted the killing power of the 9.3 with a longer point blank range.
in the background is the possibility of northern territory buffalo.
my current 7mmstw is a wonderful flat shooting rifle, but is a bit light on for big ferals at long range.
its barrel is in its last days.
when the barrel goes, it will be replaced with a krieger 340 barrel of shilen no 4 profile, 26" long for open country larger game, and swift 250 gn will be compared to barnes 225 gn bullets for shots that might include texas heart shots.
all exoeriments with lighter bullets in the 9.3x64 will cease.
ammo for this will be only the swift 300gn aframe, and will be held in obeyance for biggest game and in less than open country for next step down game.
thank you to all who have offered valuable input.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

as an interesting aside.
i remember when the ruger m77 came on the market.
norther territory professional buffalo hunters bought them in 338 win mag, pulled the barrels without firing a shot, and replaced them with much heavier barrels.
with these rifles they shot buffalo "up the nose" possibly mostly from vehicles.
the ammo used was winchester factory silvertip 300 gn bullet.
it would be interesting to see that ammo now.
bruce.

 

[Von S.]

I have heard many say how they plant a bullet in the " boiler room" of a cape and somehow seem to be very pleased with themselves at that "accomplishment,"

The problem that I have personally witnessed is that when someone aims for buffalo boiler room the best that they ever shoot after that is an area that size which often allows for critters like impala a free pass and the diminutive dik- dik about a snowballs chance in hell of being even nicked.

...and that's at 50 yards.

I have shot a few elephants, but I never really wanted to ever kill one for sport.

The first one I shot was my friends that he riddled with ,375's. His problem was that he couldn't even shoot cape boiler room groups and did more of a group of the boiler room of the HMS Queen Mary which proved to be just a little too big. Luckily for me I had been practicing on mouse boiler room and easily put a 500 solid right through his Mellon.

My friend, who's back was to the big knot head when it fell, turned around and claimed victory as if the trunk shot, the ear shot and the shot to the right foot has finally worked their "delayed magic," and spelled doom for 7 tons of flab.

When he died I went to his funeral and all most exfixiated myself with laughter as on his casket was a great big framed picture of him standing on the elephant he was running away from and his " bwana bonnet ," and the holy man saying just how proud he was the moment he got that elephant. Ain't life grand?

I know a farmer who can knock the eye out of a deer, but give him a 243 and he'd be damned lucky to hit the planet. I don't know what it tells anyone else, but it tells me that the 243 is just too much for him at the present and he may never be good with anything other than a 22.

For myself the best off hand rifle that I have is a pre 64 Winchester levergun in 30-30 loaded with ,110 grain Hornady hollow points and the stock cut down for a small kid. Standing off hand and taking my time ...one ragged 3 shot hole. ?nice for ground hogs.

There are many square inches on any animal. The one you put the bullet in is up to you.

 

[Luvthunt]

One Day,
Pruedo{?} Bay/Dead Horse on a bike and your wife riding solo also. That means you went up the Dalton Highway, you are a humble fellow. I did the Dalton from PB/DH south two hours to one of the largest maintenance depots for the pipe line. Something Lake, cannot remember the first name. Was in a Surburban and the stones and rocks being thrown by the heavy maintainence tractor trailers was no joke.took two softball size rocks on the windshield the first time , don't have to tell you what that did,had better luck the second time.Came down the Dalton twice in the early 80s and it was foremost in my mind when we landed in Prudoe.
And you and your wife did on a bike.
Earlier you made a comment that the 340 may not be a good defensive weapon. The fellow I was with in the Prince William delayed pickup, took a hunter from Alabama Brown bear hunting out in the Cold Bay Area. The hunter killed a bear and they skinned it and my friend strapped the wet hide on his Kelty and started for their spike camp. They had a small fast stream to cross so he took the shell out of the338 chamber and climbed up the bank on the far side with the hunter behind him. Went less then 50 yds and heard a growl and grunts behind him and turned to see a brown bear within feet shoved the rifle in the bears chest and click, no shell in chamber.the bear grabbed him and started to shake. At that point the hunter who had some expierence and moxie shot the bear in the butt, and the bear dropped him. Lots more to this story but for those who want verification the hunter was an outdoor writer for Outdoor Life and the story was in that magazine in 87 or 88. What makes this story is the hunter was shooting a 340 WBY.

 

[Hmaxwell]

I have a 340 WBY and after one shot seems like the barrel warms and throws rounds 12-14 with no pattern. After an hour punches the 10 spot. Had it taken down and still no medicine. Swapped scopes, based everything my gunsmith could throw at her. Ideas are welcome.

 

[rookhawk]

I have a 340 WBY and after one shot seems like the barrel warms and throws rounds 12-14 with no pattern. After an hour punches the 10 spot. Had it taken down and still no medicine. Swapped scopes, based everything my gunsmith could throw at her. Ideas are welcome.

Heat caused the barrel to bend or the receiver to expand causing a change in harmonics that resolves itself when it returns to ambient temperature.

Glass bed. Pillar bed. Expand the free float channel. Alter (increase probably) the torque of the action screws to see if these makes a difference.

From what you say, all evidence points to heat causing expansion that effects accuracy after first shot.

 

[Hmaxwell]

Heat caused the barrel to bend or the receiver to expand causing a change in harmonics that resolves itself when it returns to ambient temperature.

Glass bed. Pillar bed. Expand the free float channel. Alter (increase probably) the torque of the action screws to see if these makes a difference.

From what you say, all evidence points to heat causing expansion that effects accuracy after first shot.

Thank you sir. The gunsmith glass bedded to no avail. I will ask about pillar bed and your other suggestions. First shot is a tack driver but pattern spreads to 12” after first shot. I took first scope off and out on my 375 and shot 5 in a row that were touching.

 

[JimP]

Is the stock hitting the barrel anywhere, even lightly?

Can you take a dollar bill and slide it down between the stock and barrel from the forend to the action?

I have no problems with my .340 Mark V with the fiberglass stock getting ten shots into the bulls eye in as many minutes.

 

[One Day...]

One Day,
Pruedo{?} Bay/Dead Horse on a bike and your wife riding solo also. That means you went up the Dalton Highway, you are a humble fellow. I did the Dalton from PB/DH south two hours to one of the largest maintenance depots for the pipe line. Something Lake, cannot remember the first name. Was in a Surburban and the stones and rocks being thrown by the heavy maintainence tractor trailers was no joke.took two softball size rocks on the windshield the first time , don't have to tell you what that did,had better luck the second time.Came down the Dalton twice in the early 80s and it was foremost in my mind when we landed in Prudoe.
And you and your wife did on a bike.
Earlier you made a comment that the 340 may not be a good defensive weapon. The fellow I was with in the Prince William delayed pickup, took a hunter from Alabama Brown bear hunting out in the Cold Bay Area. The hunter killed a bear and they skinned it and my friend strapped the wet hide on his Kelty and started for their spike camp. They had a small fast stream to cross so he took the shell out of the338 chamber and climbed up the bank on the far side with the hunter behind him. Went less then 50 yds and heard a growl and grunts behind him and turned to see a brown bear within feet shoved the rifle in the bears chest and click, no shell in chamber.the bear grabbed him and started to shake. At that point the hunter who had some expierence and moxie shot the bear in the butt, and the bear dropped him. Lots more to this story but for those who want verification the hunter was an outdoor writer for Outdoor Life and the story was in that magazine in 87 or 88. What makes this story is the hunter was shooting a 340 WBY.

@Luvthunt, I would hate to have you think that I was BS-ing you ;-)

... and I do not think that I was making the point that the .340 Wby would not do. Just that given the choice ahead of time I would pick the .458 Lott

 

[One Day...]

I have a 340 WBY and after one shot seems like the barrel warms and throws rounds 12-14 with no pattern. After an hour punches the 10 spot. Had it taken down and still no medicine. Swapped scopes, based everything my gunsmith could throw at her. Ideas are welcome.

Hmmm !?!?!? My Mark V (see https://www.africahunting.com/media...-game-matched-pair-battery-257-340-wby.70737/) shoots routinely 3 shot 1" group at 100 yd, and, when I do my job, which is not always, it shoots cloverleaf at 100 yd:

@rookhawk and @JimP made good suggestions, but I think that I would look somewhere else, if I understand your post, which I may not (?).
In my experience, just one shot is not enough, by any stretch, to open the pattern 12" or 14". Truth be told I do not know that 50 shots in quick succession would open the pattern THAT much. If your concern was that 5 quick shots open the pattern from 1 MOA to 2MOA, I woud say: yep, this is in the cards with a fairly light contour barrel and a high-speed cartridge. But 12" to 14" ... in so many words: no way!
The part that surprises me is that - if I understand your post right (?) - the gun returns to the original point of aim. Is this correct? And you mean: without adjusting the scope, correct?
I have seen scopes slide in rings on a .340 where each shot would change point of aim, but this had nothing to do with heat. I have seen scope adjusted to where the next shot would be perfect (as a response to scope adjustment based on the last shot) but the following shot would be off, due to the scope moving with the previous shot. Could it be your case?
Another hypothesis, I hate to submit, would be shooter related. Please do not take this wrong, but could subsequent shots carry a flinch that a first shot would not? This is a fairly common issue: perfect trigger pull on the first shot, then trigger jerk/flinch on follow ups. A VERY classic issue.
The bottom line here is that it is extremely unlikely that your issue is thermal. Therefore, it is likely mechanical, and there are only two options: gun/scope assembly or shooter. If, as suggested by @rookhawk and @JimP all the screws are properly torqued, and the gun returns to point of aim WITHOUT adjusting the scope after each shot, then it is likely not gun related.
I hope this helps, and please know that most of us went through this

 

[One Day...]

I have heard many say how they plant a bullet in the " boiler room" of a cape and somehow seem to be very pleased with themselves at that "accomplishment,"

The problem that I have personally witnessed is that when someone aims for buffalo boiler room the best that they ever shoot after that is an area that size which often allows for critters like impala a free pass and the diminutive dik- dik about a snowballs chance in hell of being even nicked.

...and that's at 50 yards.

I have shot a few elephants, but I never really wanted to ever kill one for sport.

The first one I shot was my friends that he riddled with ,375's. His problem was that he couldn't even shoot cape boiler room groups and did more of a group of the boiler room of the HMS Queen Mary which proved to be just a little too big. Luckily for me I had been practicing on mouse boiler room and easily put a 500 solid right through his Mellon.

My friend, who's back was to the big knot head when it fell, turned around and claimed victory as if the trunk shot, the ear shot and the shot to the right foot has finally worked their "delayed magic," and spelled doom for 7 tons of flab.

When he died I went to his funeral and all most exfixiated myself with laughter as on his casket was a great big framed picture of him standing on the elephant he was running away from and his " bwana bonnet ," and the holy man saying just how proud he was the moment he got that elephant. Ain't life grand?

I know a farmer who can knock the eye out of a deer, but give him a 243 and he'd be damned lucky to hit the planet. I don't know what it tells anyone else, but it tells me that the 243 is just too much for him at the present and he may never be good with anything other than a 22.

For myself the best off hand rifle that I have is a pre 64 Winchester levergun in 30-30 loaded with ,110 grain Hornady hollow points and the stock cut down for a small kid. Standing off hand and taking my time ...one ragged 3 shot hole. ?nice for ground hogs.

There are many square inches on any animal. The one you put the bullet in is up to you.

As you well know @ Von S. there is a BIG difference between loosely pointing at the boiler room (which I interpret as "hope as a strategy" or in modern 'military' terms - not my understanding of "military" - as "spraying and praying"), and what I discussed, which is carefully aiming and relying on the MPBR to land in the vital area.
I will just say that I have done enough range finding / ballistic tables reading / scope clicking, in both military and civilian applications, to know for a fact that one needs a fairly static situation to have the time to do all that well. Sometimes one has that time - and/or a spotter to do the ranging and reading. Sometimes not. This simple fact has earned my respect for ballistic solutions that, if maybe less pin-point accurate, are applicable on the fly.
Heck! this is the very concept of battlesight zero, and that concept has proved itself enough on the battlefield to be worth considering in the hunting fields.
Just my $0.02

 

[bruce moulds]

on our fullbore rifle range, and common to others i have seen, the target numbers in front of the targets have a surprising number of bullet holes in them, some sideways.
in the long range game you are constantly changing distances, sometimes 3 or 4 times in a day.
experienced shooters ar making these bullet holes by forgetting to apply correct sight settings, and the sideways bullet holes are obviously from riquochets, even worse sight adjustments.
for my hunting rifles i want them zeroed for max point blank capabilty, and never touch them agaqin.
then no mistakes can occurr in that area.
call me dumb, but i know my limitations.
for adjusting scopes, maybe those with zero stop technology would minimize this issue.
just wind down to the lowest setting which is set at max point plank.
bruce.

 

[Luvthunt]

One Day,
Never thought for a minute you were BS’s me, your posts in this thread speak to your values and integrity. My comments were of admiration as I sure as H—- would not have done it. Thanks for the pics. MY only unwanted advice to you is take very good care of that lady, she is one in many millions.
However, the comment on the bear incident was in support of you prior support of our 340s. No criticism.

A BIKE UP THE DALTON—WOW!!

 

[One Day...]

One Day,
Never thought for a minute you were BS’s me, your posts in this thread speak to your values and integrity. My comments were of admiration as I sure as H—- would not have done it. Thanks for the pics. MY only unwanted advice to you is take very good care of that lady, she is one in many millions.
However, the comment on the bear incident was in support of you prior support of our 340s. No criticism.

A BIKE UP THE DALTON—WOW!!

I am sorry if I came across the wrong way @Luvthunt, this was not intended, but I will admit that some posts we see here or there are, let us say, hmmm, less than credible, so I do tend to validate what I write ;-)

Yep, she is a keeper. Heck, she kept ME for 35 years so far, so she IS a keeper LOL. And she shoots pretty darn well too. Her only glaring shortcoming is that - so far - I have not been able to interest her in fly-fishing. Dang!

No criticism taken I am with you; it would be a pretty big anything that would not pay attention to a .340 Wby slug at close range, from any angle. I guess that if I was unlucky enough to be the guy being mauled at the time, I would still prefer that slug to be even larger LOL. But then again, the times being what they are, we are unlikely to walk the bush or the alders with a retinue of gun bearer hauling along a light, a medium and a heavy for our ideal selection.

It seems that those of us who actually carry a .340 in the field entirely agree: we are just happy with it because it does things few others do. God bless those who see it otherwise from a theoretical perspective!

PS: the really interesting part to me is the continuing decrying of the .340 Wby and the newly developed worshiping of the .338 Lapua, which is ... but a ballistic clone of the .340 (wink wink wink). This is similar to the latest enamoring with the current darling of the small caliber world, the 6.5 Creedmoor ... which is essentially re-inventing the 6.5x54 Mannlicher. The date stamped on my Schonauer carbine is ... 1903... LOL

 

[Luvthunt]

Being a hard core fly tying and fishing guy myself I understand—have one thought have you tried buying her a new pair of boots. LAFF,LAUGH.
YEH 93,94,95 we were on Kodiak for a DIY
cast and blast trip. Steelhead, big steelhead a few fish over 40”. Late trip from 10/20 to 11/10 so weather was miserable but cocooned in neoprene and a Helly Hansen jacket and the big fish made it a dream trips. A DIY with another long time hunting pal, we made our first trip 1n 1953 to Nova Scoitia? For Atlantic salmon.
Back to Kodiak—340 slung over my back I shared a few pools over the 3 weeks with bears. No problems until the last year and there were so many bears on the river that year that it seemed to change their temperament. Lost 2 Blacktail bucks to bears [bear] that pushed me off my kill.
Always took the 340 because it was built for rough weather and my 375 was/ is a 1949 M70 with a wood stock.
The last year [1995] was ugly, from the first day we were harassed by bears and as discretion is the better part of valor and there were plenty of fish we moved frequently.
When we left the headwaters of the river we had to take the raft thru 14 bears [not counting the cubs on the-bank] fishing a small falls or rapids they were frantic running back and forth in the river not wanting to give up their fishing spots. When we got thru them, I turned to watch what happened behind us and the bears all knew their places and it was peace again.
The 340, in my hands, gave me the same peace. Backed up by my sawed off 870 laying in the raft.

 

[Von S.]

As you well know @ Von S. there is a BIG difference between loosely pointing at the boiler room (which I interpret as "hope as a strategy" or in modern 'military' terms - not my understanding of "military" - as "spraying and praying"), and what I discussed, which is carefully aiming and relying on the MPBR to land in the vital area.
I will just say that I have done enough range finding / ballistic tables reading / scope clicking, in both military and civilian applications, to know for a fact that one needs a fairly static situation to have the time to do all that well. Sometimes one has that time - and/or a spotter to do the ranging and reading. Sometimes not. This simple fact has earned my respect for ballistic solutions that, if maybe less pin-point accurate, are applicable on the fly.
Heck! this is the very concept of battlesight zero, and that concept has proved itself enough on the battlefield to be worth considering in the hunting fields.
Just my $0.02

Pascal,

There are many people who go hunting with the idea of shooting a deer and some do just that, they do shoot a deer , unfortinatly because many aim AT the deer and not an exact spot on the deer some deer do run off some under a hail of murderous gunfire never to be seen again.

Those who are lucky enough will hit somewhere that will turn the animal off immediately, sometimes not and then comes the tracking and the cursing with people swearing just how tough a deer is to kill. If they are lucky enough they may eventually find the deer on that snow covered mountain to find that the most lethal hit that animal took was a hole in the liver followed by a hole in the rear leg and a one directly up his butt just for good measure. Unfortunately this deer was taken for the meat and not a trophy as most 6 pointers are mostly reserved as trophies for kids, the meat now shot to hell and tainted with urine and dung has questionable value at best.

Yes my thousand yard steel shooting friend, it does take time to range and set up to make a perfect shot that you know exactly where the bullet should hit and this type of shooting does not lend itself well to stomping about. Sure! You have to set up and though many believe that it takes a target gun to achieve long range accuracy, that is an absolute falsehood. It does take a very much above average rifle and a round that is powerful enough to go the distance with a bullet that can get the job done at a distance that a person is comfortable with. But they also need to understand that hitting something and killing something at long distance are two different things and if the best at long distance is 24"s my suggestion would be to figure out if it's the rifle and rounds that are off or if it's the shooter himself.

A while back I said that after making a 30-378 right as rain I took it to Texas and found out that my rifle with close to 10 g's of improvements to be a 1k+ killing machine worked, it was me who did not measure up to the task that I wanted. Sure! I could make " boiler room" accuracy shots and most assuredly hit steel with little difficulty, but hitting a softball wasn't happening. I found that I have hit a sort of accuracy wall and it appears that around 700 is the best I can now do with a firearm that can do so much more.

As part of their rifle qualifications, the USMC has recruits shooting at 500 yards with an M-16 with 5.56 rounds. And though a single grunt firing at that distance is very unlikely to produce many, if any kills. There is a theory called "firepower superiority" which kinda means if you fire one bullet at us and we fire a thousand at you chances are we're gonna kill you sooner than later no matter how bad we shoot. I believe that many a hunter does that exact same thing to one degree or another.

Pascal , I bring this up as you have made mention of military shooting.

Can you imagine attempting to kill a human at 500 yards with a round that many sportsman will badmouth anyone who shoots a deer with one at 100 yards calling them unsportsmanlike like and many names? But some of these same guys who are quick to sling dung are also guys who leave wounded game in the field and just ain't ever close to being a good shot. These same guys are also ones who pass judgement over which rifle and calibers are just too big .

Me.? I could care less if people want to March right on up to an elephant with a BB gun and wang him right between the eyes. Or take out their Micky Mantle autographed bat and smack the snot out of a cape, or rope a zebra, saddle and brake him and ride in the 4th or July parade in Abilene with a bwana bonnet on and purple suspenders.

I believe that over the years I have passed up probably passed up about ,1/3 the shots then I have taken, some of the game have been real dandies. I take my shots on my terms and if that means that I have to watch the animal disappear then so be it.

Does every shot have to be some long drawn out ultra accurate affair?

Absolutely not. From 200 yards and in I can tell what the distance is and stand with sticks at that distance I can hit a 6 inch circle at . If I can't I won't go hunting. Period!

After 200 yards , which in itself is a long shot I need a stout tree or a bipod. And I will range and dial in. At 400 the Kestrel comes out and I will be prone. After 700 yards I don't shoot anymore due to my deficiencies as a shooter as of late.

And though I have offered my shooting drill to get ready for 200 yards and in shooting it appears that only I have done it and have posted my results very kindly by saying that I found my shooting very wanting and that should I not improve I would not go hunting until I did.

The drill consists of 12 six inch paper plates at 50, 100, 150, and 200 yards. At ,50 and 100 yards standing without leaning or aided one round at each target 10 feet apart and 3 feet off the ground off hand as quickly as you feel comfortable, same at 100 yards.

At 150 and 200 yards you can use sticks.

I wonder just how well many will do? The worst I ever saw was 0 for 12 by a man with a beautiful 300 Weatherby Magnum who I believe gets a deer every year. To me 6" is not pin point accuracy by any stretch of the imagination, but if someone can't consistently hit 6 inches at ,50 yards.

Personally Pascal I believe that maybe you are just down playing your abilities with the long iron.

 

[One Day...]

Being a hard core fly tying and fishing guy myself I understand—have one thought have you tried buying her a new pair of boots. LAFF,LAUGH.
YEH 93,94,95 we were on Kodiak for a DIY
cast and blast trip. Steelhead, big steelhead a few fish over 40”. Late trip from 10/20 to 11/10 so weather was miserable but cocooned in neoprene and a Helly Hansen jacket and the big fish made it a dream trips. A DIY with another long time hunting pal, we made our first trip 1n 1953 to Nova Scoitia? For Atlantic salmon.
Back to Kodiak—340 slung over my back I shared a few pools over the 3 weeks with bears. No problems until the last year and there were so many bears on the river that year that it seemed to change their temperament. Lost 2 Blacktail bucks to bears [bear] that pushed me off my kill.
Always took the 340 because it was built for rough weather and my 375 was/ is a 1949 M70 with a wood stock.
The last year [1995] was ugly, from the first day we were harassed by bears and as discretion is the better part of valor and there were plenty of fish we moved frequently.
When we left the headwaters of the river we had to take the raft thru 14 bears [not counting the cubs on the-bank] fishing a small falls or rapids they were frantic running back and forth in the river not wanting to give up their fishing spots. When we got thru them, I turned to watch what happened behind us and the bears all knew their places and it was peace again.
The 340, in my hands, gave me the same peace. Backed up by my sawed off 870 laying in the raft.

I went the other route. DIY too, but because I prefer wadding to floating, and I needed a backpack for day-long hikes along the Russian River, a rifle was cumbersome. I ended up buying a Smith & Wesson 4" .500. Never had to use it, but we did run into a fair number of Grizz as well as Black Bear.

The S&W .500 has nowhere near the power of a .340 Wby (4,800 ft/lbs at the muzzle with a 250 gr bullet), but it is very unobtrusive on the hip and with the Corbon 440 gr Hard Cast, it still produces 2,580 ft/lbs at the muzzle, which is on par with a 300 gr 12 gauge slug. I figured that since brownies occupied in fishing and left alone to it would be somewhat unlikely to be as aggressive as a sow surprised in the bush at short range, that would likely suffice. Heck, just the muzzle blast concussion alone ought to give them a bleeding nose LOL. It sure did to me. I had to turn the muzzle brake off to be able to shoot it without feeling punched in the nose every time I pulled the trigger. Quite a handgun!

 

[One Day...]

Pascal,

There are many people who go hunting with the idea of shooting a deer and some do just that, they do shoot a deer , unfortinatly because many aim AT the deer and not an exact spot on the deer some deer do run off some under a hail of murderous gunfire never to be seen again.

Those who are lucky enough will hit somewhere that will turn the animal off immediately, sometimes not and then comes the tracking and the cursing with people swearing just how tough a deer is to kill. If they are lucky enough they may eventually find the deer on that snow covered mountain to find that the most lethal hit that animal took was a hole in the liver followed by a hole in the rear leg and a one directly up his butt just for good measure. Unfortunately this deer was taken for the meat and not a trophy as most 6 pointers are mostly reserved as trophies for kids, the meat now shot to hell and tainted with urine and dung has questionable value at best.

Yes my thousand yard steel shooting friend, it does take time to range and set up to make a perfect shot that you know exactly where the bullet should hit and this type of shooting does not lend itself well to stomping about. Sure! You have to set up and though many believe that it takes a target gun to achieve long range accuracy, that is an absolute falsehood. It does take a very much above average rifle and a round that is powerful enough to go the distance with a bullet that can get the job done at a distance that a person is comfortable with. But they also need to understand that hitting something and killing something at long distance are two different things and if the best at long distance is 24"s my suggestion would be to figure out if it's the rifle and rounds that are off or if it's the shooter himself.

A while back I said that after making a 30-378 right as rain I took it to Texas and found out that my rifle with close to 10 g's of improvements to be a 1k+ killing machine worked, it was me who did not measure up to the task that I wanted. Sure! I could make " boiler room" accuracy shots and most assuredly hit steel with little difficulty, but hitting a softball wasn't happening. I found that I have hit a sort of accuracy wall and it appears that around 700 is the best I can now do with a firearm that can do so much more.

As part of their rifle qualifications, the USMC has recruits shooting at 500 yards with an M-16 with 5.56 rounds. And though a single grunt firing at that distance is very unlikely to produce many, if any kills. There is a theory called "firepower superiority" which kinda means if you fire one bullet at us and we fire a thousand at you chances are we're gonna kill you sooner than later no matter how bad we shoot. I believe that many a hunter does that exact same thing to one degree or another.

Pascal , I bring this up as you have made mention of military shooting.

Can you imagine attempting to kill a human at 500 yards with a round that many sportsman will badmouth anyone who shoots a deer with one at 100 yards calling them unsportsmanlike like and many names? But some of these same guys who are quick to sling dung are also guys who leave wounded game in the field and just ain't ever close to being a good shot. These same guys are also ones who pass judgement over which rifle and calibers are just too big .

Me.? I could care less if people want to March right on up to an elephant with a BB gun and wang him right between the eyes. Or take out their Micky Mantle autographed bat and smack the snot out of a cape, or rope a zebra, saddle and brake him and ride in the 4th or July parade in Abilene with a bwana bonnet on and purple suspenders.

I believe that over the years I have passed up probably passed up about ,1/3 the shots then I have taken, some of the game have been real dandies. I take my shots on my terms and if that means that I have to watch the animal disappear then so be it.

Does every shot have to be some long drawn out ultra accurate affair?

Absolutely not. From 200 yards and in I can tell what the distance is and stand with sticks at that distance I can hit a 6 inch circle at . If I can't I won't go hunting. Period!

After 200 yards , which in itself is a long shot I need a stout tree or a bipod. And I will range and dial in. At 400 the Kestrel comes out and I will be prone. After 700 yards I don't shoot anymore due to my deficiencies as a shooter as of late.

And though I have offered my shooting drill to get ready for 200 yards and in shooting it appears that only I have done it and have posted my results very kindly by saying that I found my shooting very wanting and that should I not improve I would not go hunting until I did.

The drill consists of 12 six inch paper plates at 50, 100, 150, and 200 yards. At ,50 and 100 yards standing without leaning or aided one round at each target 10 feet apart and 3 feet off the ground off hand as quickly as you feel comfortable, same at 100 yards.

At 150 and 200 yards you can use sticks.

I wonder just how well many will do? The worst I ever saw was 0 for 12 by a man with a beautiful 300 Weatherby Magnum who I believe gets a deer every year. To me 6" is not pin point accuracy by any stretch of the imagination, but if someone can't consistently hit 6 inches at ,50 yards.

Personally Pascal I believe that maybe you are just down playing your abilities with the long iron.

As usual, there is a lot I agree with in your post @Von S. and I personally like the practical qualification exam that is required in some European countries to obtain a hunting license. The rationale is that if a modicum of driving ability is required to obtain a driver's license, should not a modicum of shooting ability be required to obtain a hunting license? Now, THAT would probably revive the job of shooting instructor ;-)

Truly, it is indeed a rare case when the basic equipment is at fault. I agree with you. Too many folks forget that up until not too long ago (early 80's) the US military snipers' rifles were essentially standard, off-the-shelf heavy barrels Rem 700 or Win 70, and they did quite fine in qualified hands. With modern manufacturing techniques, it is indeed a rare rifle these days that cannot maintain 2 MOA, and most will achieve 1 MOA (which is why one sees the proliferation of 1 MOA guaranties in the sporting arms industry). Things get complicated when John Doe improvises himself a gunsmith (witnessing scopes installation and sighting can be quite hilarious...) and improvises himself a shooter (witnessing shooting form - never mind gun safety - can be quite interesting on public ranges...). This is one thing I really liked with the old-timers we were recently discussing: in most cases the military had taught them to shoot and handle guns safely...

I have no doubt that your drill would be an eye opener to most, including myself. I would probably want to do it a bit differently though. For example, I will in most cases not shoot off hand at any distance (unless on the fly on a follow up shot on wounded game). I will drop to a knee in open space, or grab a sapling in close cover. Either is instantaneous and practical: if the ground is open, nothing prevents you from shooting from a knee (some prefer sitting), and it is in my experience a rare place where you could shoot standing but not kneeling. Similarly, I avoid shooting standing with the sticks, at any distance. Somehow my upper body sways back & forth when the gun is on the sticks, and I do not achieve much. Conversely, I am rock-solid when sitting behind the sticks. More commonly, I am the guy you will see leaning into a tree to stabilize my body (in which case off hand is a lot steadier); crawling on a boulder (where I can achieve virtually bench-rest stability); grabbing a sapling (which supports the gun and reduces my upper body sway); dropping on my but behind a convenient bush with a forked branch (with gives me as much or more overall stability than shooting from the sticks), etc. etc.

In so many words:

1) I avoid shooting unsupported like the plague. I cannot maintain 1 MOA from a field position, but I generally stay within 3 MOA from a well supported field position. Off-hand, I would venture to guess that most people - me included - have difficulty holding 6 MOA, and many cannot hold even 12 MOA, which is why there are a lot of misses on your 6" paper plate at 100 yd (6 MOA) or even 50 yd (12 MOA).

2) I am happy to restrict myself to 300 yd in most hunting situations. The happy consequence is that I have a lot bigger safety margin than you have shooting at 700 yd. If we are both producing 3 MOA accuracy from a supported field position, my bullet will hit the 9" vitals of a deer at 300 yd; your bullet will fall anywhere in a 21" circle at 700 yd. With luck it will be within the 9" that are vital within those 21", but maybe not... To be as reasonably certain to hit the 9" vitals at 700 yd, as I am at 300 yd, you need to produce 1 1/4 MOA accuracy. No small feat from field positions... I personally cannot to that consistently and reliably, hence I do not shoot at game that far from field positions.
And should either of us be foolish enough to try off-hand shooting at those distances ... well, we would be irresponsible morons.

The bottom line is that I must have somehow failed to convey the main point I was attempting to make: I do not confuse a) relying on MPBR to compensate for drop; and b) being happy to hit an animal somewhere at random. Let us look at it this way: the trajectory of the bullet is governed by the laws of physics and is pretty much immutable, therefore:
a) one can either change the sights adjustment to get the point of impact where they want it, and hit precisely the square inch they aim at - which is great; or
b) one can rely on the fact that any-square inch of heart or lung is as vital as the next one - in which case one does not need to adjust the sights within the MPBR distance, which is great too.

You belong in the first group; God bless you! I belong in the second group; God bless me! We both aim and we both kill cleanly. Your preference is more adapted to stand hunting; my preference is more adapted to walk & stalk, which is what I like to do. I really do not see any implication of either choice on the fundamentals of aiming and shooting; in both case we both need to do both well.