338 Winchester Magnum

[shootist~]

Dr Robertson discusses the advantages of heavy and relatively slower bullets for large plains game in the bush. He gives an example using 250 grain bullets in the 35 Whelen and 9.3x62.

Just for discussion - relative to the 338 WM and strictly in the Bush where shorter distances are expected:

Would a 250 grain (NP or AF) downloaded to about 2,450 fps be significantly better (or at least equal to) a full charge premium bullet weighing 210 or 225? Assume unfavorable angles, brush, etc. (FWIW, Swift lists their 250 gr A-Frame factory load at 2,570 fps.)

 

[bruce moulds]

Dr Robertson discusses the advantages of heavy and relatively slower bullets for large plains game in the bush. He gives an example using 250 grain bullets in the 35 Whelen and 9.3x62.

Just for discussion - relative to the 338 WM and strictly in the Bush where shorter distances are expected:

Would a 250 grain (NP or AF) downloaded to about 2,450 fps be significantly better (or at least equal to) a full charge premium bullet weighing 210 or 225? Assume unfavorable angles, brush, etc. (FWIW, Swift lists their 250 gr A-Frame factory load at 2,570 fps.)

you cannot compare the nosler partition with the swift aframe.
far be it from me to question dr Robertson, but the swift will kill better the faster it goes.
the nosler will blow its nose off more the faster it goes.
when this happens, the bullet can and often does, change direction, while the swift keeps going straight.
the swift expanded is heavier than the nosler in a similar condition, as the nosler has often lost 40% of its weight.
I have had a 210 n.p.338 fail to kill a pig that a 270 or 308 would have killed with sierra cup and core bullets.
a 250 gn bullet in 35 is at the heavy end, while the same weight in 9.3mm is mid weight.
a swift bullet in mid to heavy weight will be your friend driven hard, as it will expand relatively easily and quickly, but keep going straight.
shooting camels with 9.3x64 has revealed that speed is at least part of the formula for fast reliable killing.
the closer the target, the more sudden the death.
as good a shot as any is quartering facing you, and on the point of the shoulder.
the swifts have to go through massive bones there, and keep going.
the same bullet side on in the ribs is also deadly, yet nowhere as much resistance to the bullet exists.
I cannot speak of barnes on big game as I have only used them up to 7mm on camels.
in that context, a lighter barnes in a bigger calibre might be useful.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

338 vs 375.
my own experience with the 338 was that it was extremely hard to get advertised velocities with sane pressures.
I bought it for a combination of hitting power and trajectory, and felt a little cheated.
others seem to get the speed, so maybe I had a slow barrel?
going to a 375 gave easy velocities, and it shot at least as flat as the 338.
it was also less finicky with loads that grouped well.
at the time I was mostly after donkeys, and found that the 270 had met its match there.
of course the 375 did an excellent job, and the only bullet I needed was the 300 gn sierra.
bruce.

 

[Daga Boy]

The .338WM has been my "go to" rifle for everything except very small game for many years.
When I first started using it in bush environments (so at ranges under 150m) I experienced a lot of blow ups., with massive meat damage . This was mainly with Nosler 210g bullets and was about to write it off for that application. I then switched to 250grn bonded bullets (SAKO). The situation improved a lot, but I still experienced some separation, etc.
My current bush load is a 275grn Swift A Frame launched at 2400fps. This is lethal. The kills are not as spectacular as with the Noslers (which lose about half their weight) , but penetration is amazing. I haven't tried but I think it would probably do a buffalo end to end. Meat damage is quite minimal as the bullet does not fragment.
If you are not going to be tackling anything with very thick skin and heavy bones then you can drop to a 250grn bonded bullet pushed at about 2500fps. This is an excellent all round load for African conditions. I rate the Swift A frame as the best, but there are other contenders, and you don't always need the toughest bullet. In fact a more frangible bullet often performs better on thinner skinned, lighter boned animals.
Another very good option in the .338WM is a 225grn monometal bullet - or even a 250grn for bush applications.
For long range applications I use fairly frangible , high BC bullets in the 180-200grn range. These are pushed to between 2900 and 3000fps and are good to around 400m (probably more, but I haven't tried).
With the exception of the long range loads , all of the loads I have recommended are 100% OK on even the toughest game, including giraffe, hippo and buffalo.
At the risk of stating the obvious, I regard the .338WM as the ideal all round African rifle - superior in fact to the venerated .375H&H as an allrounder

 

[Major Khan]

The .338 Winchester magnum calibre is an extremely underrated old school American classic . I would personally consider it to be the bare minimum for tackling 500 pound male royal Bengal tigers . It was also an extremely popular calibre among my American clients , who used to book shikars with Allwyn Cooper Limited for Asian Sloth Bears , Neelgai or sambhur deer .
Winchester initially manufactured their .338 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition , by utilizing big and beautiful 275 grain bullets . Sadly , no brand ( to my knowledge ) manufactures these anymore. Nowadays , the .338 Winchester magnum calibre factory loaded ammunition available from most brands utilizes a 250 grain bullet .
That said .... The Australian company , Woodleigh does produce some excellent 300 grain bullets for the .338 Winchester magnum calibre in modern times , which do seem promising .

Back in the 1960s , countless of my American clients told me that the .338 Winchester magnum was considered to be the universal standard for hunting the large American Grizzly Bear species .
Having seen the performance of this magnificent calibre on our Asian Sloth Bear... I am much inclined to believe them.

 

[Daga Boy]

The .338WM has accounted for hundreds if not thousands of Cape buffalo. Also used on elephants in countries where it is permitted.
Retained energy is on average higher than with a .375H&H at ranges beyond 100m.
It is also more powerful than the very renowned 9.3 x 62, which I also own.

 

[ldmay375]

I consider the 338 Winchester as a larger 30-06 in the respect that it simply works well. I think it is a very versatile cartridge.
The 338 Winchester is one of my favorite cartridges. If I had to make a choice of one cartridge for North America, to be used for deer through big bears, the 338 Winchester would be my choice.

 

[Tanks]

I have a different view of .338 Winchester. It is neither fish nor fowl. If you have the .375 H&H then you do not need it for heavy stuff and the .375 is good for everything up to 300 yards. If you need to hit shots longer than 300 yards for PG then .300 WM or RUM outperforms it.

If you do not have the .375 then it could be a good compromise.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I have a different view of .338 Winchester. It is neither fish nor fowl. If you have the .375 H&H then you do not need it for heavy stuff and the .375 is good for everything up to 300 yards. If you need to hit shots longer than 300 yards for PG then .300 WM or RUM outperforms it.

If you do not have the .375 then it could be a good compromise.

Tanks, please add the 8x68S to your examples as well..it is more proficient than a .300 WM.....

 

[Viral_SIGness]

My Ruger M77 MkII .338 Win Mag loved 225 Accubonds and 250 grain Partitions. I never hunted anything but Whitetail with it, but those hit, never took another step.

My favorite pet load, was mild, averaged 2710 with the 225 Accubond with 71gr of RL19, and I used a standard LR primer.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

Tanks, please add the 8x68S to your examples as well..it is more proficient than a .300 WM.....

I thought I had an 8x68 in my extensive cartridge collection, but apparently I dont. I was going to do a side by side pic of it with the .300 Win Mag. I'm not arguing but I can't see the old metric odd balls being better than the .300 Win Mag. If you have a 8x68 cartridge youd like to sell, I'd be willing to buy one for my collection.

 

[Scott CWO]

I have a different view of .338 Winchester. It is neither fish nor fowl. If you have the .375 H&H then you do not need it for heavy stuff and the .375 is good for everything up to 300 yards. If you need to hit shots longer than 300 yards for PG then .300 WM or RUM outperforms it.

If you do not have the .375 then it could be a good compromise.

Many people like to travel with only one rifle with it being a compromise cartridge, such as the .375 H&H, for both PG and DG. While I understand and cannot fault such thinking, I prefer to take two rifles and specialize a bit more. The .338WM with 225gr Swift A-Frame is about as good as it gets for PG and I take my .458 Lott for DG.

If only PG is on the menu, a 300 Mag would definitely work but I prefer a .225gr bullet in a .338WM over a 180gr bullet in a 30 caliber.

I have never been a believer in slowing down loads for use in the brush. I prefer to use a premium bullet at normal speeds and also be prepared for longer shots. I am not a believer that slower bullets will deflect less and how do you prove such speculation? Just use a well-constructed bullet at normal velocities and then you are prepared for anything.

 

[bruce moulds]

8x68 might have the same problem as the 9.3x64.
that is that most bullets in that calibre are meant for slower cartridges, and can self destruct driven faster.
this is not a problem if you are aware of it and choose your projectles accordingly.
bruce.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

Many people like to travel with only one rifle with it being a compromise cartridge, such as the .375 H&H, for both PG and DG. While I understand and cannot fault such thinking, I prefer to take two rifles and specialize a bit more. The .338WM with 225gr Swift A-Frame is about as good as it gets for PG and I take my .458 Lott for DG.

If only PG is on the menu, a 300 Mag would definitely work but I prefer a .225gr bullet in a .338WM over a 180gr bullet in a 30 caliber.

I have never been a believer in slowing down loads for use in the brush. I prefer to use a premium bullet at normal speeds and also be prepared for longer shots. I am not a believer that slower bullets will deflect less and how do you prove such speculation? Just use a well-constructed bullet at normal velocities and then you are prepared for anything.

I'd like to add to what you said. As far as deflection, my friend and I did some pretty extensive testing, intentionally shooting through brush. We used a .308 and a .300 Win Mag, tried max loads, we tried minimum loads. We also tried round nose vs Spitzer. There was no discernable difference between any of them. A bullet is going to deflect no matter what you do.

 

[bruce moulds]

Many people like to travel with only one rifle with it being a compromise cartridge, such as the .375 H&H, for both PG and DG. While I understand and cannot fault such thinking, I prefer to take two rifles and specialize a bit more. The .338WM with 225gr Swift A-Frame is about as good as it gets for PG and I take my .458 Lott for DG.

If only PG is on the menu, a 300 Mag would definitely work but I prefer a .225gr bullet in a .338WM over a 180gr bullet in a 30 caliber.

I have never been a believer in slowing down loads for use in the brush. I prefer to use a premium bullet at normal speeds and also be prepared for longer shots. I am not a believer that slower bullets will deflect less and how do you prove such speculation? Just use a well-constructed bullet at normal velocities and then you are prepared for anything.

good post scott.
added to which, as long as the bullet is up to it, faster bullets are better killers.
and flatter trajectories allow more easy access through gaps in bushes.
as much as I respect the 9.3 and 375 calibres, for me in Africa the 340 wby and the 416 rem mag would come under serious consideration as a a pair.
both in win70 with triggers set the same and scopes mounted the same height would be like using the same rifle.
the 340 would be loaded with 250 swift, so if anything went wrong it might be your friend.
bruce.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

good post scott.
added to which, as long as the bullet is up to it, faster bullets are better killers.
and flatter trajectories allow more easy access through gaps in bushes.
as much as I respect the 9.3 and 375 calibres, for me in Africa the 340 wby and the 416 rem mag would come under serious consideration as a a pair.
both in win70 with triggers set the same and scopes mounted the same height would be like using the same rifle.
the 340 would be loaded with 250 swift, so if anything went wrong it might be your friend.
bruce.

Both great calibers, but from what I've learned about Africa hunting, they wouldn't be preferred choices. Seems they prefer lower pressures, to prevent extraction issues in the extreme heat. That's why the .416 Rigby is still so popular. The .416 Rem Mag and .416 Ruger (.416 Roy is a lot more powerful, but very high pressures) are nearly identical in power, but the huge Rigby case does it at much lower pressures, and that's a big deal when you're about to be trampled. The last thing you want is a sticky case. The .458 Win Mag suffered that fate in the beginning, and it still isn't popular on the dark continent.

I've also learned, when it comes to PH/Guides, they have .458 Lotts opened up to accept the .458 3". So again, they get the Lott power, at much lower pressures.

By the way, I'm not knocking anyone's choices, or favorites. Just merely sharing what I've learned, and making conversation.

 

[Tanks]

Many people like to travel with only one rifle with it being a compromise cartridge, such as the .375 H&H, for both PG and DG. While I understand and cannot fault such thinking, I prefer to take two rifles and specialize a bit more. The .338WM with 225gr Swift A-Frame is about as good as it gets for PG and I take my .458 Lott for DG.

If only PG is on the menu, a 300 Mag would definitely work but I prefer a .225gr bullet in a .338WM over a 180gr bullet in a 30 caliber.

....

I am of the same school in taking multiple rifles. For PG I am in the process of building a .300 RUM I think a 200 grain bullet at 3,150 fps will take care of any PG at any distance.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

I am of the same school in taking multiple rifles. For PG I am in the process of building a .300 RUM I think a 200 grain bullet at 3,150 fps will take care of any PG at any distance.

I believe with the RUM, I'd be tempted to try the 220 grain ELD-X. That .650 G1 BC would reach out there easily.

 

[Tanks]

Well, I will have time to test the 200, 212 and 220 grain ELD-X and the Bergers. I will have a 1:8.5 twist so will be able to handle the heavier bullets.

 

[bruce moulds]

Both great calibers, but from what I've learned about Africa hunting, they wouldn't be preferred choices. Seems they prefer lower pressures, to prevent extraction issues in the extreme heat. That's why the .416 Rigby is still so popular. The .416 Rem Mag and .416 Ruger (.416 Roy is a lot more powerful, but very high pressures) are nearly identical in power, but the huge Rigby case does it at much lower pressures, and that's a big deal when you're about to be trampled. The last thing you want is a sticky case. The .458 Win Mag suffered that fate in the beginning, and it still isn't popular on the dark continent.

I've also learned, when it comes to PH/Guides, they have .458 Lotts opened up to accept the .458 3". So again, they get the Lott power, at much lower pressures.

By the way, I'm not knocking anyone's choices, or favorites. Just merely sharing what I've learned, and making conversation.

modern brass combined with sensible handloading practice will deal with those issues.
bruce.