308 with Fusion 150gr for plainsgame

[35bore]

Hello again Nowegianwoods,

I totally agree with you.

In my personal experience, large wild swine and Zebra just to name two of the many, are not the least bit impressed with "energy dump", or muzzle energy, or any other mathematical equations anyone would care to name.

(Aside from brain/spine, or both shoulders broken asunder), the only wound that's better than a sucking chest wound is two sucking chest wounds, an inny and an outy.

Blood out / Air in.

"The most dangerous animals on earth walks on it's hind legs".

Keep Well,
Velo Dog.

I am definitely not disagreeing, with you or the Norwegian. two holes are always better than one. I use the (substandard) Remington bullets and have always had a entrance and exit wound, that being said 225 grain bullet might only weigh 100 grains after it exits, but it dumps a lot of energy lead/copper/bone, tissue damage into the animal in the process. the federal fusion ammunition that I have used on the variety of animals that I have used it on, has had the exact outcome.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hello again 35bore,

To a point, I agree with you, in that; If the tissues get lacerated and bashed about, as the projectile passes through the animal, that will definitely help to put him in the hunter's stew pot.

From my personal experiences however, I would submit that: Upon the vitals being shot through, an exit wound (hopefully a bit larger than the entrance wound was) will drop the blood pressure so much the faster than only an entrance wound alone.

Furthermore, in the case of specifically the lung tissue being perforated, when the outside atmosphere's pressure pushes into the chest cavity, the lungs cannot expand against it so easily any more and said lungs often then collapse.

Blood leaking out of two holes, plus pressure surging in where it does not belong, from both sides, means that your beast cannot breath.....no breathie, no runnnie.....at least not very far.

I have seen this work very fast, so many times now that, I am convinced it is of particular advantage on tough animals like large hogs, zebra and the likes.

Moving right along......I too like Remington Core-Lokt bullets for what they were designed.

I have used them here in Alaska (deer & caribou), as well as in the Lower-48 (hogs) with huge success.

However, I tend to use the heavier for caliber ones (180 gr as my minimum weight in .30 for the above species), I do not push them past the velocity they were designed to endure, and last but not least, I do not use smallish calibers for largish animals.

I have a decent supply of them for my various rifle calibers, including in .458 as well and would not hesitate to hunt any critter in Alaska with same or any PG in Africa with them (not for thick skinned game though like hippo, buffalo etc).

My parting shot is that since badboy124's son is taking a .308 to Africa, he should in my opinion, use stoutly constructed bullets (.308 does not handle the heaviest .30 bullets well, partly due to magazine length and partly due to limited powder space).

My recommendation is for the Swift A-Frame or as Norwegianwoods suggested; the Norma Oryx bullet (bonded JSP) and badboy124 might consider the TSX but I personally have no experience with the TSX whatsoever.

35bore, you would be welcome at my camp fire any time.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

In general I think we very much agree 35bore.
We might prioritize a slightly differently and it looks like I think less of the Fusion ammo in .30 kaliber and smaller for PG.

I always prioritize 2 holes in the animal, and as long as I am guaranteed that with a broadside shot, even when I hit the shoulder, I will take whatever tissue damage and "energy dump" I get as a bonus.

 

[watman]

Just back from a PG hunt in SA... I used 150gr Barnes TSX, actually wish I had used something that opened up faster realized on warthogs and impala, like a ballistic tip. Seemed to just poke a hole straight through without the desired expansion. Example, broadside shot on an impala was just a tad forward and low and we tracked him a long ways never recovering the animal despite a lot of blood. However on another face on it did the job properly. Had the same results on a warthog. Now I'm kind of ashamed to admit the impala and warthog were both bad shot placement issues on my part but on the smaller animals I'm in the camp the Barnes TSX are a bit unforgiving... almost like a FMJ. I think these vital spot near misses would have probably done the job on a faster expanding bullet.

That said the TSX 250gr in my 9.3 did a great job on both Greater Kudu and Gemsbuck. The 150gr in a 308 did great on both Blue Wildebeest and Blesbuck.

I think if I was hunting with the 308 over there again, I'd probably go with the ttsx or nosler ballistic tip for the smaller game and the TSX for heavier game.

 

[enysse]

Well that is my main complaint with TSX and the hard stuff, if you don't hit bone, you can poke a nice neat hole through an animal, were a soft might be better. You still have to hit something vital.

 

[Shakey]

I've long been a fan of Barnes TSX from 6.8 SPC up through .416 Rem. I don't doubt that folks have had issues with expansion, but I have not (or if I did, I wasn't aware of it and the animal died quickly enough anyhow). Maybe I haven't because I don't shoot long ranges. 200 yards is a very long shot for me, and most of mine are within 100. The tipped TSX (TTSX), if it will group well, should remedy this if it is a concern.

My boys hunt with .308s routinely, including their first safari in Africa. Two of the rifles shoot Fusion exceptionally well, and I had a 25-06 that loved Fusion. Results on whitetail and axis, however, have been less than glowing. It took dogs and several hours to find one of my biggest whitetail shot with Fusion, and the shot was placed resonably well. 100 yards later and no blood trail to speak of (at least not for a human). My oldest son took his largest whitetail this past season and it took 5 shots before the deer finally expired. 2 shots of the shots wouldn't have mattered what bullet was used (after the first shot), but 3 were "good" shots. We're talking about Texas whitetail ... not exactly the toughest animal on the planet ....

Pick something other than Fusion for your son's rifle in Africa. If you're leaning towards 150 grain for recoil purposes, then go TTSX or TSX for relaible penetration. If not, move up to 165 - 168 minimum and 180 if he can handle it. The momentum acheived with a heavier bullet is an advantage if the shot is quartering or bone gets in the way. We shoot 168 grain TSX. A few have suggested Swift A-Frame. Another great bullet with a good reputation. I have no experience with Remington, but they've been making bullets for a long time.

Having raised a couple hunters, here's some unsolicited advice (not knowing the age or size of your son):

Make sure his .308 is heavy - even if it means adding a mercury tube (reduces recoil and slows his movement of the gun)

Avoid muzzle brakes at all costs. His loss of hearing is not worth it

Have him practice with a .22LR that is close to the same action as the .308 - thousands of times ....

When shooting the .22LR - use reactive targets (bottles, soda cans, spinning targets) and shoot from sticks, sitting, prone, free-hand. The reactive targets make it fun and they really start to focus on the target.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Just back from a PG hunt in SA... I used 150gr Barnes TSX, actually wish I had used something that opened up faster realized on warthogs and impala, like a ballistic tip. Seemed to just poke a hole straight through without the desired expansion. Example, broadside shot on an impala was just a tad forward and low and we tracked him a long ways never recovering the animal despite a lot of blood. However on another face on it did the job properly. Had the same results on a warthog. Now I'm kind of ashamed to admit the impala and warthog were both bad shot placement issues on my part but on the smaller animals I'm in the camp the Barnes TSX are a bit unforgiving... almost like a FMJ. I think these vital spot near misses would have probably done the job on a faster expanding bullet.

That said the TSX 250gr in my 9.3 did a great job on both Greater Kudu and Gemsbuck. The 150gr in a 308 did great on both Blue Wildebeest and Blesbuck.

I think if I was hunting with the 308 over there again, I'd probably go with the ttsx or nosler ballistic tip for the smaller game and the TSX for heavier game.

This is why I highly recommend the Barnes TTSX bullets in cartridges with moderate speeds.
They expand much easier than the TSX because of the polymer tip
The Barnes Vor-Tx factory ammo for 308 uses a 150 TTSX bullet that I am sure will work very well on any PG.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hello All,

The lightest rifles I've used in Africa were the .300 H&H / 180 gr Nosler Partition and on another trip, the .30-06 / 220 gr Hornady RNSP, with excellent results but, I did not shoot an eland or giraffe with either one.

However, for the .308, I repeat myself here, I would recommend A-Frame or perhaps Norma Oryx, because I feel the .30-06 is even getting down toward the low end of the effectiveness scale on the larger species.

The .308 is really pushing one's luck on things like eland, blou wildebeest, waterbuck,etc.

I know my words will ruffle feathers of small bore guys but that is not my intent here.

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[BWH]

I'm heading over in a few weeks with my 30-06 for PG.... Most all of the ammo I feed it in the 165-168 performs the same on the paper. I have a lot of the Barnes TTSX, I even have a box of Hornady GMX & Norma Oryx. I plan on bringing 80-100 rounds. Use what I need & leave some with PH. This discussion has me contemplating which one to use......

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I have not used the GMX bullet myself, but I have heard good words about it.
Both the TTSX and the Norma Oryx I am sure you will be happy with.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hello BWH,

Sorry for the confusion, it's mostly my fault for being an over-wordy / large bore nut, perhaps just a nut, period.

If you are not after giraffe or eland, please disregard these ramblings of an old man, because otherwise, your 165-168 gr bullets will probably do well on your PG hunt.

Fact is, even for giraffe and eland, they likely will do fine, provided you shoot them into the exact spot that your PH instructs you to shoot them into.

Same goes for the man who's son is taking a .308 soon to hunt PG.

You can take my leaning toward larger calibers/moderate velocity-high sectional density/stoutly constructed bullets, as just my opinion, nothing more.

I just prefer large bore rifles for large species.

That is my thing, it does not have to be yours, unless you start drinking the same Cool-Aid that the voices have convinced me to drink for many years now.

Shoot straight and your .30 will serve you well.

Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[BWH]

Velo,

No worries, nor apologies! This site & you guys are a wealth of knowledge. I'm just trying to take in as much good intel as I can for my first trip over in a few weeks. Trying to "get it right".... Make as few of mistakes as possible. By nature I over analyze everything.... Down to the grain of the bullet, type, expansion, etc.

Just wanted to make sure I'm on track.... The PG Ill be hunting with the 06, is Kudu, impala, gemsbok, zebra, springbok, etc....

Take care,

Brad

 

[Velo Dog]

BWH,

Thanks for that.

Talk about over-analyzing things....yours truly is the king of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, (underline Disorder).

The voices have made it quite clear to me that, I truly NEED a separate rifle for every animal specie alive today, (plus a few that disappeared - somewhere between the Mesozoic Era and the Permian Period).

Hunting over in you-know-where has only made that problem worse.

You're going to flip when you see Africa.

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[RickP]

Used Win XP3 150gr. and TTSX 150 gr. in a .308 Encore w/ a 15" barrel on tons of plains game all the way up to zebra. It's plenty of bullet. As they say, a perfect shot with a .308 (in this case) is better than a bad shot with a .458 Win.

 

[graybird]

I'm another one of those guys that reaches for the Barnes bullets first when beginning load development for my rifles.

If you're planning on using factory ammo, I would look at either the 150 gr or 168 gr TTSX and shoot the one that the rifle likes best. If the rifle were to not like either of these loads, I would next look at the Federal Premium line of ammo in the Trophy Bonded Tip or Nosler Partition and let the rifle tell me which weight bullet it likes best. Another option would be ammo loaded with the Swift A-frames or Nosler Accubonds.

Any and all of the bullets outlined above would be my choice over the Fusion line of ammo.

Good luck!!!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Good Morning Badboy124,

Fusion projectiles seem to have a feeble track record for penetration.

Nobody I know here in Alaska uses them, that I know of.

My vote is with those who suggest tougher projectiles for Africa, and with those who prefer an exit wound, "blood out/ air in".

As per my personal experience, for thin skinned game, I like Hornady RNSP (and "solid" where applicable, IE: Klipspringer, geese, etc, etc), also Nosler Partition and for the Record, Remington Core-Lokt, in that order.

HOWEVER, for larger animals (moose, bear, eland, guldang wilderbeests, etc), only use these "old fashioned bullets" in HEAVY FOR CALIBER weights, the .308 possibly can't shoot them well over about 165 gr (accuracy, magazine length, etc).

A PH friend of mine (John Luyt / Duke Safaris) keeps a .308 for clients to use and he culls with it.

His load for client's to use is the 180 gr A-Frame but, that bullet is reportedly not accurate in all .308 rifles.

Perhaps the 150 or 165 grain TXS and TTSX or whatever they're called, might be the thing for your son's .308?, you can reportedly use lighter weights/higher velocity with these, than with the bullets I recommend, indeed the TXS / TSSX possibly have to go fast or not expand, due to their lead-free, monolithic hard metal composition.

Nowegianwoods has sacked quite a bit of game with them and he recommends them highly.

Others have had good luck with them as well but, I notice they primarily use them in lighter weight for their calibers and thereby drive them at relatively high velocity and as such, they reportedly penetrate very well indeed, due to their "toughness".

Light weight rather soft bullets are not the best tool in your box for taking large/tough animals like some of the African PG species.

Regards,
Velo Dog.

@Velo Dog
My son used mainly 150 grain accubonds in his 308. These were loaded to 2,900fps. Everything he shot was dead in less than 20 yards. All massive internal damage and thru and thru.
He shot his zebra with 140grain outer edge 1st shot at 160 yards on the chevron, ran 30 yards and shot again an inch from the first shot. It was dead with the first shot but didn't go down. The second shot was insurance. Both shots completely passed thru with massive internal damage and a three quarter inch exits.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Run for your lives, Velo Dog is howling again,

BLOOD OUT / AIR IN.

Cheerio,
El Doggo.

@El Doggo
I personally like blood out, air in and even more blood out the other side.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I've long been a fan of Barnes TSX from 6.8 SPC up through .416 Rem. I don't doubt that folks have had issues with expansion, but I have not (or if I did, I wasn't aware of it and the animal died quickly enough anyhow). Maybe I haven't because I don't shoot long ranges. 200 yards is a very long shot for me, and most of mine are within 100. The tipped TSX (TTSX), if it will group well, should remedy this if it is a concern.

My boys hunt with .308s routinely, including their first safari in Africa. Two of the rifles shoot Fusion exceptionally well, and I had a 25-06 that loved Fusion. Results on whitetail and axis, however, have been less than glowing. It took dogs and several hours to find one of my biggest whitetail shot with Fusion, and the shot was placed resonably well. 100 yards later and no blood trail to speak of (at least not for a human). My oldest son took his largest whitetail this past season and it took 5 shots before the deer finally expired. 2 shots of the shots wouldn't have mattered what bullet was used (after the first shot), but 3 were "good" shots. We're talking about Texas whitetail ... not exactly the toughest animal on the planet ....

Pick something other than Fusion for your son's rifle in Africa. If you're leaning towards 150 grain for recoil purposes, then go TTSX or TSX for relaible penetration. If not, move up to 165 - 168 minimum and 180 if he can handle it. The momentum acheived with a heavier bullet is an advantage if the shot is quartering or bone gets in the way. We shoot 168 grain TSX. A few have suggested Swift A-Frame. Another great bullet with a good reputation. I have no experience with Remington, but they've been making bullets for a long time.

Having raised a couple hunters, here's some unsolicited advice (not knowing the age or size of your son):

Make sure his .308 is heavy - even if it means adding a mercury tube (reduces recoil and slows his movement of the gun)

Avoid muzzle brakes at all costs. His loss of hearing is not worth it

Have him practice with a .22LR that is close to the same action as the .308 - thousands of times ....

When shooting the .22LR - use reactive targets (bottles, soda cans, spinning targets) and shoot from sticks, sitting, prone, free-hand. The reactive targets make it fun and they really start to focus on the target.

@Shakeup
That's exactly the routine I put my son thru. He got to the stage he could group 3 inches at 200yards off sticks and most hunting positions . More than enough for the field.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

Nosler partition is never a bad choice, ever.

yes it can be a bad choice.
use it to make a big un littler and it is good.
use it to make a little gun bigger and sooner or later there will be trouble.
bruce

 

[whitetail]

I’ve used the 165 grain Federal Fusion in my Browning X-Bolt .308 for all kinds so plains game (except for my eland and waterbuck- needed my .375) and have NEVER had any poor performance. This was even a red hartebeest at 330 yards- he literally dropped on the spot. I know there are all kinds of folks on here that are way smarter on ballistic coefficients, etc, etc- but I can guarantee you- you won’t be disappointed with the Fusions. As always, it’s all about proper shot placement- do that- and the plains game will go in the salt. Just my 2 cents