.223 for Steinbok, Duiker, Klipspringer?

[Justbryan]

I used a 22 Hornet on my last trip for night creatures and tiny ten. It left a bigger hole than expected on multiple animals. Great choice for small creatures.

 

[hoytcanon]

I used a 22 Hornet on my last trip for night creatures and tiny ten. It left a bigger hole than expected on multiple animals. Great choice for small creatures.

What bullet did you use? Factory loads are no good for small game if you don't want to do damage, they have thinner jackets and are quite explosive.

 

[Justbryan]

What bullet did you use? Factory loads are no good for small game if you don't want to do damage, they have thinner jackets and are quite explosive.

It was not factory ammo but fragile hollow points. The PH loaded but they still were too fragile for some of the smaller animals that we were hunting but just right for other more dense animals.

 

[Safari Dave]

I would use a .22 Magnum with expanding bullets.

You just never know with a .223 and military FMJ's. Sometimes they will just zip through a tiny animal and the animal may run 100+m. Sometimes, you hit a bone and you may as well have used a grenade.

The Geneva Convention, allowed FMJ's because they will wound a solider, but might not cause a lethal injury.

A game animal needs a lethal injury.



Never "gut shoot" an animal!

 

[Nhoro]

I have guided and filmed Tiny 10 hunts. I think the argument of gut shooting is simply confusion. The shots advised by PHs are as lethal as any shot, and probably just as quick as any shot you can take. Even a brain shot does not kill instantly as the heart continues beating for minutes. I have not seen any of those tiny animals run with a shot through the ribs or even found one still alive when we run up to them. I reckon they are all dead as quickly as a brain shot. Buffalo take longer to die with a heart lung, most run 50 m or so at least. So perhaps it would settle the argument if we stopped calling it a gut shot and instead acknowledge that it is a a quick killing and humane shot on the Tiny 10 ? I will not use a shot that does not quickly kill an animal.

Others have tackled the 223 vs big bore solids vs heavy for calibre softs but I will say that a 223 will do the job if used with care but maybe a slower velocity with heavy bullets would be better, maybe downloading the 223

 

[Daisy]

I have guided and filmed Tiny 10 hunts. I think the argument of gut shooting is simply confusion. The shots advised by PHs are as lethal as any shot, and probably just as quick as any shot you can take. Even a brain shot does not kill instantly as the heart continues beating for minutes. I have not seen any of those tiny animals run with a shot through the ribs or even found one still alive when we run up to them. I reckon they are all dead as quickly as a brain shot. Buffalo take longer to die with a heart lung, most run 50 m or so at least. So perhaps it would settle the argument if we stopped calling it a gut shot and instead acknowledge that it is a a quick killing and humane shot on the Tiny 10 ? I will not use a shot that does not quickly kill an animal.

Others have tackled the 223 vs big bore solids vs heavy for calibre softs but I will say that a 223 will do the job if used with care but maybe a slower velocity with heavy bullets would be better, maybe downloading the 223

I shoot coyotes and bobcats with 223 all the time. There have been more varmints taken with 223 than tiny 10 animals ever taken. It is probably the ideal bullet if your job is to harvest the animal.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I have guided and filmed Tiny 10 hunts. I think the argument of gut shooting is simply confusion. The shots advised by PHs are as lethal as any shot, and probably just as quick as any shot you can take. Even a brain shot does not kill instantly as the heart continues beating for minutes. I have not seen any of those tiny animals run with a shot through the ribs or even found one still alive when we run up to them. I reckon they are all dead as quickly as a brain shot. Buffalo take longer to die with a heart lung, most run 50 m or so at least. So perhaps it would settle the argument if we stopped calling it a gut shot and instead acknowledge that it is a a quick killing and humane shot on the Tiny 10 ? I will not use a shot that does not quickly kill an animal.

Others have tackled the 223 vs big bore solids vs heavy for calibre softs but I will say that a 223 will do the job if used with care but maybe a slower velocity with heavy bullets would be better, maybe downloading the 223

Right. On my first safari I shot a steenbok and a duiker with a .30-06 using 180 grain Partitions. I shot them through the ribs going in and out. Some people would say that this was a "gut shot" because it was behind the lungs on an African animal. Both dropped at the shot and didn't move. By the time we walked over to them there was no.sign of life. An actual heart lung shot would not have killed any faster,and would only have ruined the cape.

People who are ignorant of the animals anatomy should probably not voice their opinions about what a proper shot is.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

The .223 is perfectly acceptable for steinbok, duiker & klipspringer. Just use FMJ military ball in order to minimize hide meat damage.

Larger bore rifle (like a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) loaded with solids is also a very good alternative.

I have also successfully hunted forest duiker with a 12 gauge shotgun & AAA or No. 4 buckshot.

 

[Hunt anything]

Oh, and I wouldn’t hunt with anyone who would suggest gut shooting an animal. Theyd be going to the dentist if they said something like that to me.

Unless shooting solids this is the way to go on the tiny ten. Any expanding bullet will blow them to hell and back. My juice for the TT would. E a .22 hornet if I could ever find one.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I’ve shot 8 of the Tiny 10 Species and shot multiples of most (20+ total). I have only shot three of all those animals (duplicates included) with rounds other than a .375 H&H and many were on a dedicated Tiny 10 Hunt. Two of the animals I’ve shot were with a .308 Win (Klipspringer and Cape Grysbok). I was using a very hard bonded bullet, aimed for the last rib and still had more damage than a 375 with the TBBC, A-Frame, or Woodleigh Solid.

I thought hard about guns on the dedicated T10 Hunt. Spoke with the outfitter(s). I looked at a 22WMR or Hornet, a 222 or .223 and decided not to take them. In Zim I took along a .22LR, it was great for shooting birds, but when I encountered my Sharpes the 375 with a Woodleigh Solid was in hand. The 22LR was very handy for guinea fowl, go away birds, ducks and geese. The trackers were always handing me the .22.

Personally the .375 is my choice and it’s likely what I’ll use to finish’s my Tiny 10.

 

[Daisy]

I’ve shot 8 of the Tiny 10 Species and shot multiples of most (20+ total). I have only shot three of all those animals (duplicates included) with rounds other than a .375 H&H and many were on a dedicated Tiny 10 Hunt. Two of the animals I’ve shot were with a .308 Win (Klipspringer and Cape Grysbok). I was using a very hard bonded bullet, aimed for the last rib and still had more damage than a 375 with the TBBC, A-Frame, or Woodleigh Solid.

I thought hard about guns on the dedicated T10 Hunt. Spoke with the outfitter(s). I looked at a 22WMR or Hornet, a 222 or .223 and decided not to take them. In Zim I took along a .22LR, it was great for shooting birds, but when I encountered my Sharpes the 375 with a Woodleigh Solid was in hand. The 22LR was very handy for guinea fowl, go away birds, ducks and geese. The trackers were always handing me the .22.

Personally the .375 is my choice and it’s likely what I’ll use to finish’s my Tiny 10.

It seems to be more of a “we already have a 375h&h so don’t bring another gun”. Maybe I’m wrong.

Imagine if you showed up to hunt a prairie dog, coyote, bobcat, small doe white tail with a 375 solid. Would it get the job done. Sure. Would you be laughed at and told you had the wrong tool for the job. Yes.

Again, using a solid in a ubiquitous gun of Africa. I get it. But that again has seemed to morph into its the best tool for the job.

You can’t spot your impacts with a 375 on a small game. Impossible. Being able to stay on target with. 223 or 22-250 would invariably lead to a better shot. It’s just the right tool for the job.

I wonder how many misses never get talked about on here with small game. We went night hunting with a spotlight when I was there and me and three friends went 2/7 on jackal. Yes night with guns is harder. But I miss quite a few coyotes My guess is there have been quite a few tiny 10 missed with 375.

Maybe I’ll just take my 375 on next coyote hunt and see what happens

 

[radname]

I can assure you that within a couple hundred yards a .223 is enough gun, and all but the one I described above were taken that way. I hunt a fair amount in one of the harshest environments I’ve seen, try different things to see what works and what don’t, learn from my mistakes/poor choices and move on. As far as gut shooting animals I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. My goal is to end an animals life as quickly as possible if that’s the case. Not save my taxidermist some sewing.

Please excuse my ignorance, but could you please explain the advantages of using a .223 to shoot caribou as opposed to using a larger caliber? Thanks

 

[Daisy]

Hi

Please excuse my ignorance, but could you please explain the advantages of using a .223 to shoot caribou as opposed to using a larger caliber? Thanks

lots of good data on that.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET.


“Bullets matter more than headstamps.”

“Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”.

I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened.

The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

Looks like it won’t link. But Google and search 223 for bear deer elk moose.

Hundreds of pages with videos. Pics. Post mortems. Almost no recoil. Better well placed shots. Frangible bullet with lots of damage.

There you go. Advantages explained.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

It seems to be more of a “we already have a 375h&h so don’t bring another gun”. Maybe I’m wrong.

Imagine if you showed up to hunt a prairie dog, coyote, bobcat, small doe white tail with a 375 solid. Would it get the job done. Sure. Would you be laughed at and told you had the wrong tool for the job. Yes.

Again, using a solid in a ubiquitous gun of Africa. I get it. But that again has seemed to morph into its the best tool for the job.

You can’t spot your impacts with a 375 on a small game. Impossible. Being able to stay on target with. 223 or 22-250 would invariably lead to a better shot. It’s just the right tool for the job.

I wonder how many misses never get talked about on here with small game. We went night hunting with a spotlight when I was there and me and three friends went 2/7 on jackal. Yes night with guns is harder. But I miss quite a few coyotes My guess is there have been quite a few tiny 10 missed with 375.

Maybe I’ll just take my 375 on next coyote hunt and see what happens

Difference is most aren’t trying to do full mounts prairie dogs. Shot distances on the T10 are considerably closer as well (sub 50yds). There’s no need to spot impacts at that distance. I’ve missed a duiker at that distance and they didn’t even move. They seem to freeze compared to other animals thinking they’re hidden. With regards to the other hunts and species mentioned, I know multiple people who shoot does or deer hunt with their 375 regularly. In a calling situation like coyotes and bobcats that’s a different style of hunting than what most T10 are shot during. It’s also why on the dedicated T10 hunt I did I took a different gun since it was a different style of hunting a few species.

Like I said, I brought the .308 on a dedicated T10 hunt. I knew shot distances on certain species (the two mentioned) could be longer than average. I knew night hunting might happen. I knew I might be shooting moving game as well. I spoke with a professional ballistitian (from one of the major manufacturers) to get his opinion on bullets and calibers given what could be found (post covid). Thats what we settled on.

IMO the main issue with T10 isn’t the bullet doing excessive damage. It’s the bone fragmenting or exploding on impact. The T10 species have a much thinner skin. It’s almost paper like on some. Because of body size they don’t have the meat/muscle structure that helps catch and stop the bone fragments. I think this is what primarily leads to excessive damage and the explosive wound channels from even the smallest bone contact (ribs in the case of my Klipspringer). This seems to be more of an issue at the higher velocities other calibers named like 22-250, or .223 shoot at. A PH in Zim said he felt the 22 Hornet was too fast and did more damage than the 375 on the T10. A 375 at 2150 just punches through whereas a .223 is moving over a 1000 fps faster even with a 60gr partition or something compared to a 55 or 62gr FMJ. The .308 and bullet I used in my T10 hunt also shot a Kudu, multiple Bushbuck, and multiple Impala or Warthogs and had pencil like wounds regardless if it was on the shoulder, the neck, or behind the shoulder when culling for camp meat. If i was doing it again, I’d have shot the Klipspringer and Grysbok with the 375. I almost didn’t shoot the Cape Grysbok with the 308 after seeing what it did to the klipspringer but thought it might’ve been a fluke because of how delicate their skin is.

 

[Hunt anything]

In a perfect world if I was going to use a .308 for the TT I would use a Federal fusion 125gr reduced recoil load. I’ve shot javelina, foxes and coyote with that load with no pelt damage. Of course if I did that that would be the time a 30+” nyala would show up to the call.

 

[radname]

Hi

lots of good data on that.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET.


“Bullets matter more than headstamps.”

“Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”.

I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened.

The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

Looks like it won’t link. But Google and search 223 for bear deer elk moose.

Hundreds of pages with videos. Pics. Post mortems. Almost no recoil. Better well placed shots. Frangible bullet with lots of damage.

There you go. Advantages explained.

Thanks, but no thanks. Seems like a fools errand. I shoot and handle the recoil of larger calibers just fine, so I think I'll stick with them. I will Google that though when I have time because that kind of stuff is interesting to me, but I'm sure all I will find is a defense of how "it can be adequate". I think it's a waste of time to debate .223 vs any more reasonable big game cartridge unless you are hunting from a speeding snowmobile, wich may be exactly what he was talking about.

 

[Daisy]

Difference is most aren’t trying to do full mounts prairie dogs. Shot distances on the T10 are considerably closer as well (sub 50yds). There’s no need to spot impacts at that distance. I’ve missed a duiker at that distance and they didn’t even move. They seem to freeze compared to other animals thinking they’re hidden. With regards to the other hunts and species mentioned, I know multiple people who shoot does or deer hunt with their 375 regularly. In a calling situation like coyotes and bobcats that’s a different style of hunting than what most T10 are shot during. It’s also why on the dedicated T10 hunt I did I took a different gun since it was a different style of hunting a few species.

Like I said, I brought the .308 on a dedicated T10 hunt. I knew shot distances on certain species (the two mentioned) could be longer than average. I knew night hunting might happen. I knew I might be shooting moving game as well. I spoke with a professional ballistitian (from one of the major manufacturers) to get his opinion on bullets and calibers given what could be found (post covid). Thats what we settled on.

IMO the main issue with T10 isn’t the bullet doing excessive damage. It’s the bone fragmenting or exploding on impact. The T10 species have a much thinner skin. It’s almost paper like on some. Because of body size they don’t have the meat/muscle structure that helps catch and stop the bone fragments. I think this is what primarily leads to excessive damage and the explosive wound channels from even the smallest bone contact (ribs in the case of my Klipspringer). This seems to be more of an issue at the higher velocities other calibers named like 22-250, or .223 shoot at. A PH in Zim said he felt the 22 Hornet was too fast and did more damage than the 375 on the T10. A 375 at 2150 just punches through whereas a .223 is moving over a 1000 fps faster even with a 60gr partition or something compared to a 55 or 62gr FMJ. The .308 and bullet I used in my T10 hunt also shot a Kudu, multiple Bushbuck, and multiple Impala or Warthogs and had pencil like wounds regardless if it was on the shoulder, the neck, or behind the shoulder when culling for camp meat. If i was doing it again, I’d have shot the Klipspringer and Grysbok with the 375. I almost didn’t shoot the Cape Grysbok with the 308 after seeing what it did to the klipspringer but thought it might’ve been a fluke because of how delicate their skin is.

Pelt hunters in USA have been worried about that far longer than people here have. Go to any predator hunting website and it is talked about ad nauseam. And not one will suggest a 375 with a solid.

 

[Daisy]

Thanks, but no thanks. Seems like a fools errand. I shoot and handle the recoil of larger calibers just fine, so I think I'll stick with them. I will Google that though when I have time because that kind of stuff is interesting to me, but I'm sure all I will find is a defense of how "it can be adequate". I think it's a waste of time to debate .223 vs any more reasonable big game cartridge unless you are hunting from a speeding snowmobile, wich may be exactly what he was talking about.

Zero chance you shoot it as well as you think you do.

 

[Daisy]

Thanks, but no thanks. Seems like a fools errand. I shoot and handle the recoil of larger calibers just fine, so I think I'll stick with them. I will Google that though when I have time because that kind of stuff is interesting to me, but I'm sure all I will find is a defense of how "it can be adequate". I think it's a waste of time to debate .223 vs any more reasonable big game cartridge unless you are hunting from a speeding snowmobile, wich may be exactly what he was talking about.

And you’d be dead wrong on what you’ll find.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Hi

lots of good data on that.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET.


“Bullets matter more than headstamps.”

“Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”.

I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened.

The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

Looks like it won’t link. But Google and search 223 for bear deer elk moose.

Hundreds of pages with videos. Pics. Post mortems. Almost no recoil. Better well placed shots. Frangible bullet with lots of damage.

There you go. Advantages explained.

Just because something has been done doesn't mean it's a good idea. Without perfect shot placement a .223 is inadequate for large game animals. My buddy shot a buck while we were hunting together. I saw that one shoulder appeared to be bulged. Someone had shot the buck square in the shoulder with a .22 caliber something (most likely a .223). We cut the shoulder but could not salvage the deer. We ended up throwing it away. Anyone who says they never miss, or make a shot that isn't exactly where they thought they were aiming, is lying.