1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5x54, Questions

[bruce moulds]

the picture of the rotary magazine from the rear poses some questions. (post no 43).
are the cases in the mag fired? - the primers appear to have been struck by a firing pin.
if fired, they appear flattened by high pressure or excess headspace.
they also seem to be relatively large in diameter, fired or un fired.
could they have had cases with no standard diameter primers at some time or other place?
bruce.

 

[HWL]

@ Brian Rothhammer ....about the ring in the magazine…

I checked my little collection and found a 8x60 with ring, built in 1927, and 6,5x54 M-S without ring, built in 1938!

What I think is possible, between 1924 and 1945, both type of magazines were manufactured, probably depending on caliber.

Left is the 8x60 (1927) and Right is 6,5x54 MS (1938)

But nontheless, you are right, the M1924 had a ring!!!

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

the picture of the rotary magazine from the rear poses some questions. (post no 43).
are the cases in the mag fired? - the primers appear to have been struck by a firing pin.
if fired, they appear flattened by high pressure or excess headspace.
they also seem to be relatively large in diameter, fired or un fired.
could they have had cases with no standard diameter primers at some time or other place?
bruce.

If you mean this one;

This view (a drawing in cutaway, of course) is from the front, looking toward the rear, of cartridges being loaded from a stripper clip through the clip guides as one would with a Mauser. The bolt handle, if it were shown, would be to viewer's left. What may appear to be primers are the projectiles.
Spent cartridges would be ejected as the bolt is pulled back, the magazine may also be cleared of cartridges by depressing the cartridge release button alongside and to the right of the magazine well. When ejected, the cartridges would fly out to viewer's upper left (with clip removed, of course).

Here, from the 1939 Stoeger, is a similar drawing of the magazine loaded and with clip removed, again viewed from the muzzle end.

Here is a similar drawing of a 'postwar MS, showing magazine from front and from rear:

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

@ Brian Rothhammer ....about the ring in the magazine…

I checked my little collection and found a 8x60 with ring, built in 1927, and 6,5x54 M-S without ring, built in 1938!

What I think is possible, between 1924 and 1945, both type of magazines were manufactured, probably depending on caliber.

Left is the 8x60 (1927) and Right is 6,5x54 MS (1938)

But nontheless, you are right, the M1924 had a ring!!!

View attachment 261841

I didn't think Kuduae (Axel Eichendorff) would be mistaken on this.

That 8x60 would be what is generally referred to as a M1925, I believe. Is the receiver ring marked 8X60 in place of M---- ? Herr Eichendorff indicated that M1925 had the ring.

This is so much of what makes sites like these valuable, the exchange of knowledge. With the Mannlicher Schönauer, it seems one can never stop learning!

 

[bruce moulds]

This view (a drawing in cutaway, of course) is from the front, looking toward the rear, of cartridges being loaded from a stripper clip

thank you brian.
bruce.

 

[HWL]

That 8x60 would be what is generally referred to as a M1925, I believe. Is the receiver ring marked 8X60 in place of M---- ? Herr Eichendorff indicated that M1925 had the ring.

This is so much of what makes sites like these valuable, the exchange of knowledge. With the Mannlicher Schönauer, it seems one can never stop learning!

The receiver ring is marked 8x60,......but the rifle is a 8x60S.

It has a something strange history.

The former owner of this rifle was Hugo Adolf Bernatzik, you can google….

He was a scientist, ethnologist, photographer, writer, hunter, world traveler and Nazi, all together a quite unfortunate combination.

I bought the rifle from his inheritors, togehter with a bunch of pre WW2 8x60S cartridges!

Because the rifle has factory stamped marks of .318 dia and .323 dia on the barrel, it was checked at the proof house of Munich.

It definitely is a 8x60S.

HWL

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Your 8X60 is quite lovely.

The item of particular interest to me, from this discourse, is that your M1924 magazine does not have the 'ring'.

What is the proof date of your M1924, and has it a low serial number?

From what I have read, the M1924 were originally produced for import to the United States to tap such market with an MS chambered for the .30-'06 cartridge and that the original order of 1000 did not sell well resulting in unsold 'Sequoias' being returned to Steyr where many were rebored and rebarreled to accept other cartridges. Some sources, however, dispute this.

Also Steyr-Mannlicher Schoenauer doubles and big game rifles... Sole North American Factory Agents for Steyr-Mannlicher Schoenauer lines.

To accommodate the .30-'06 required a longer magazine which would result in design modification and retooling. The longer magazine thus created allowed for flexibility with 'custom' chamberings such as those offered in the 1939 Stoeger catalog as 'High Velocity'.

I'm taking a guess but it stands to reason that with such reconfiguration, and coinciding with the change of the bolt release from round to rectangular, that it would have been the time to modify the Schönauer magazine to include the 'ring', particularly as the 'M1925' were made in several different calibers.


What is the proof date of your 'ringless' M1924?
Is it a low serial number? Lower than the Sequoia range?

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to survey owners of M1924 and 'M1925', or 'High Velocity' MS of pre WW2 manufacture to see if their magazines are with or without the ring?

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

What I think is possible, between 1924 and 1945, both type of magazines were manufactured, probably depending on caliber.
View attachment 261841

The M1903, M1905, M1908 and M1910 were still being manufactured during that period as evidenced by your 'built in 1938' example, which is interesting in itself (Is it Austrian or German proofed and / or stamped?).

The change of magazine design, I suspect, would have been one of model rather than of caliber. There would have been no reason to reconfigure magazines intended for the MS proprietary cartridges of 6.5x54 (M1903), 9x56 (M1905), 8x56 (M1908) or 9.5x57 (M1910), as they worked flawlessly when fed with DWM , Kynoch, or other ammunition of the proper specification.

I may have misunderstood your previous post. Do you have an M1924 (.30-'06) without the guide ring?

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

could they have had cases with no standard diameter primers at some time or other place?
bruce.

Though the drawing showed projectiles viewed head on rather than primers, here's something for you from the 1939 Stoeger catalog:

 

[HWL]

….. as evidenced by your 'built in 1938' example, which is interesting in itself (Is it Austrian or German proofed and / or stamped?).

I may have misunderstood your previous post. Do you have an M1924 (.30-'06) without the guide ring?

I do not have a M1924 in .30-06, but a M1952.

The 8x60(S) is from 1927.

The 6,5mm is "Made in Germany" stamped….

 

[Sagarua]

Dear all,
This is my first post/question on this forum. Thank you for many useful information and comments about Mannlicher Schonauer rifles. You got me hooked. I own those two beautiful rifles in 8x68S calibre. One is model GK produced in 1964 and the second one is model NO from 1965. What are the diferences between these two models? For me they look the same. Thank you for your replies.

 

[Sagarua]

Couple of photos.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Dear all,
This is my first post/question on this forum. Thank you for many useful information and comments about Mannlicher Schonauer rifles. You got me hooked. I own those two beautiful rifles in 8x68S calibre. One is model GK produced in 1964 and the second one is model NO from 1965. What are the diferences between these two models? For me they look the same. Thank you for your replies.

My knowledge of the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and stutzen (full stocked carbine) models is primarily focused on the pre WW2 models of M1900, M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910, M1924, 'M1925' and is a 'work in progress' but I do have some knowledge of the military MS and of the 'postwar' models.

Detail from 1939 Stoeger Catalog:

The early models of sporting rifles and stutzen each had a designation which corresponded with the MS proprietary cartridge for which they were chambered, hence all M1903 (as well as M1900 prototypes and Y1903... 'Greek' military contract and variants) were originally 6.5X54 (referred to as 6.7 on ballistics chart above), M1905 were 9X56, M1908 - 8X56 (8.2 on chart above), and M1910 - 9.5X57.

The Model 1924 'Sequoia' was made for export to the U.S. and had a longer 'action' and magazine to accommodate the 'U.S. Cartridge of 1906', or .30-'06. They didn't sell well and many were rechambered for other cartridges. Production continued on the new size (oft referred to as 'M1925' by collectors) in various chamberings until WW2 intervened. These and subsequent models were no longer cartridge specific. Stoeger referred to them as 'High Velocity'. Those manufactured during the Anschluss, or Nazi annexation of Austria (1938 - 45), bore a 'Made in Germany' roll stamp in place of the "Made in Austria" stamp found on MS made from 1924 - 38 and after the war.

The initial post WW2 offerings of MS rifles and carbines had stocks similar to the 'prewar' models but without the curved steel 'trapdoor' buttplate and the 'Take Down Model' was discontinued.

Sometime in the 1950s, two different stocks were added to the MS offerings to suit the tastes of those who preferred to use 'scopes with advertisers of the time referring to such MS by their model and / or stock designation into the 1960s. The 'straight comb' stock which greatly resembled 'prewar' models was named 'GK', or Gerader Kolben (straight butt) and could be ordered as such. The two new configurations were 'MC', or Monte Carlo, and 'MCA' which was Monte Carlo Amerikanisch or Monte Carlo All Purpose, depending on who you ask.

The GK allowed for quick sight acquisition along the barrel (iron sights) to accommodate a traditional 'continental' shooting form while the MC was intended for scope use only. The MCA was a compromise or 'all purpose' configuration.

The NO is a bit of a curiosity. Member Kuduae (a Saxon Forester who is very knowledgeable regarding the MS), has written that the NO were likely custom orders as he has found not found the NO model offered for sale in any vintage catalog or magazine ad. The NO seems to be found far more frequently in Europe than in the U.S.. What the 'NO' actually stands for is a mystery, it seems.

Model GK, or "GK-Model 1952 Stock" per the ad:

Models MC and MCA, both from 1962 Stoeger:

Here's a guess - and it is a guess - perhaps the horn tip on the stock of your Model NO would make it different enough from a 'standard' GK to warrant the 'NO' designation? Kuduae (Axel Eichendorff) may know the answer.

I hope this helps. More information can be found on NitroExpressForums, where there is a dedicated Mannlicher forum.

 

[Sagarua]

Hello sir,
Thank you for all this info. I will check the NitroExpressForums.
Regards.

 

[Sagarua]

My knowledge of the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and stutzen (full stocked carbine) models is primarily focused on the pre WW2 models of M1900, M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910, M1924, 'M1925' and is a 'work in progress' but I do have some knowledge of the military MS and of the 'postwar' models.

Detail from 1939 Stoeger Catalog:

The early models of sporting rifles and stutzen each had a designation which corresponded with the MS proprietary cartridge for which they were chambered, hence all M1903 (as well as M1900 prototypes and Y1903... 'Greek' military contract and variants) were originally 6.5X54 (referred to as 6.7 on ballistics chart above), M1905 were 9X56, M1908 - 8X56 (8.2 on chart above), and M1910 - 9.5X57.

The Model 1924 'Sequoia' was made for export to the U.S. and had a longer 'action' and magazine to accommodate the 'U.S. Cartridge of 1906', or .30-'06. They didn't sell well and many were rechambered for other cartridges. Production continued on the new size (oft referred to as 'M1925' by collectors) in various chamberings until WW2 intervened. These and subsequent models were no longer cartridge specific. Stoeger referred to them as 'High Velocity'. Those manufactured during the Anschluss, or Nazi annexation of Austria (1938 - 45), bore a 'Made in Germany' roll stamp in place of the "Made in Austria" stamp found on MS made from 1924 - 38 and after the war.

The initial post WW2 offerings of MS rifles and carbines had stocks similar to the 'prewar' models but without the curved steel 'trapdoor' buttplate and the 'Take Down Model' was discontinued.

Sometime in the 1950s, two different stocks were added to the MS offerings to suit the tastes of those who preferred to use 'scopes with advertisers of the time referring to such MS by their model and / or stock designation into the 1960s. The 'straight comb' stock which greatly resembled 'prewar' models was named 'GK', or Gerader Kolben (straight butt) and could be ordered as such. The two new configurations were 'MC', or Monte Carlo, and 'MCA' which was Monte Carlo Amerikanisch or Monte Carlo All Purpose, depending on who you ask.

The GK allowed for quick sight acquisition along the barrel (iron sights) to accommodate a traditional 'continental' shooting form while the MC was intended for scope use only. The MCA was a compromise or 'all purpose' configuration.

The NO is a bit of a curiosity. Member Kuduae (a Saxon Forester who is very knowledgeable regarding the MS), has written that the NO were likely custom orders as he has found not found the NO model offered for sale in any vintage catalog or magazine ad. The NO seems to be found far more frequently in Europe than in the U.S.. What the 'NO' actually stands for is a mystery, it seems.

Model GK, or "GK-Model 1952 Stock" per the ad:

Models MC and MCA, both from 1962 Stoeger:

Here's a guess - and it is a guess - perhaps the horn tip on the stock of your Model NO would make it different enough from a 'standard' GK to warrant the 'NO' designation? Kuduae (Axel Eichendorff) may know the answer.

I hope this helps. More information can be found on NitroExpressForums, where there is a dedicated Mannlicher forum.

Hello sir,
Thank you for all this info. I will check the NitroExpressForums.
Regards.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Hello sir,
Thank you for all this info. I will check the NitroExpressForums.
Regards.

More:
As you may know, your rifles are built on the (rare and desirable) third size of MS 'action', the Magnum. You may find these Stoeger catalog pages and details to be of interest, all found by searching 'Mannlicher Schoenauer' on Ebay:

From the 1958 Stoeger:

Also from 1958:

From 1961 Stoeger

The 1958 Magnum page. The image shows white line spacers and horn tip that may have been 'standard' on the Magnum offerings, along with the straight bolt handle common to earlier models rather than 'swept back' as on the MC and MCA . I am more familiar with the 'prewar MS than with these:

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Hello sir,
Thank you for all this info. I will check the NitroExpressForums.
Regards.

You may also find this thread to be of interest if you haven't found it already. It includes a few informative articles, vintage catalog images, and a heap of my previously posted gibberish: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...908-m1910-m1924-m1925-or-high-velocity.47277/

 

[Ray B]

I found the information regarding the magazine ring to be of interest. The 1920 mfg 1903 6.5x54 was sensitive to bullet shapes, handling the 160 gr Hornady RN quite well but I wanted to use pointed bullets such as the Nosler 125 gr, as noted in prior postings the cartridges would drop out of the spool and bind against the side of the stock. To cure the problem I made an insert out of epoxy wood that I place in the front of the magazine if I want to use pointed bullets and remove it when using the 160s. Other than that I have no issues with the gun which now that I think of it, it is 100 years young.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

To cure the problem I made an insert out of epoxy wood that I place in the front of the magazine if I want to use pointed bullets and remove it when using the 160s. Other than that I have no issues with the gun which now that I think of it, it is 100 years young.

That seems an excellent solution! Have you any photos to share detailing the 'jig'?

 

[Ray B]

1903 MS from 1920. The trigger housing is complete except for the missing set trigger. I've been on the lookout for a replacement trigger but have yet to find one. I understand it has been restocked but the foreend fitting matches so well that I would like to know the history. I got the rifle as is about 35 years ago. It's accounted for one deer but mainly it sits.