100% Success Rate?

[Sourdough]

20+ years ago I took a bunch of hunters to New Mexico to hunt Pronghorn (btw they are not antelope nor are they goats, they are unique in the US as they are the only one in there species. They are Pronghorn.)

Anyway after a two day season we are all sitting around the dinner table celebrating our success. Of course the conversation had to go to how many shots did it take. Got around to me and I said “one”. Next guy said “I feel sorry for you. You had a very short hunt shooting only one bullet. I took ten, it was great, my hunt lasted a long time”.

Kinda found it hard to argue with his logic.

 

[revturbo9967]

Curious Scott, would you rate elk tougher than a mature mulie buck? I loved hunting them both when I lived in WY. Government issue 4x4’s were not that tough, but a truly big mulie was something else altogether.

Personally I think trophy mulies are harder to get. They are under heavy pressure from predators and diseases. Numbers are dropping all over the country while elk has been stable.

 

[JimP]

Curious Scott, would you rate elk tougher than a mature mulie buck? I loved hunting them both when I lived in WY. Government issue 4x4’s were not that tough, but a truly big mulie was something else altogether.

Mule deer are my favorite animal to hunt and in 55 years of hunting them I will say that a mature trophy mullie is one of the hardest to hunt.

Once they reach trophy size they know all the ways and how to stay alive. If you are hunting them outside of the rut you will find them quite the quary.

In the 55 years that I've been hunting them I can say that I have only seen 3 or 4 truly great bucks, and I have 2 of them hanging on my walls. But I never got a shot at the largest one that I saw.

 

[MTA]

My summer nemesis, the ol' Pennsylvania groundhog has been known to severely crimp my percentage. One boar last summer gave me the slip two times before I finally was able to tell the farmer I got him. For that week, three days afield, my success rate withered to 33%.
Back on task, venues can advertise X amount of animals in X amount of days but if the person on the trigger isn't up to snuff, 100% success is just wishful thinking.

I lived in PA for a year. My wife laughs at me but my greatest trophy from that time is not a black bear or a whitetail, but a fat bastard of a ground hog that I shot from the kitchen window with a mossberg.

Destructive little vermin, this one had chewed our data cables that ran under the Sears kit home we were renting at the time. I was glad to have finally caught up with him. Those suckers can get big.

 

[Scott CWO]

A decent public land or wilderness bull elk in an area that is relatively easy to get licenses in is much harder to kill consistently than a decent 4x4 mule deer, in my experience. I can go out daily and find a 4x4 mule deer and they are not particularly spooky when compared to a public land elk.

However, killing a truly big mule deer that scores 185”+ typical or 200”+ nontypical is much tougher than killing a 330”+ class bull elk. There are only a few areas in North America that don’t take a lifetime to draw where you have a decent chance at a 180”+ mule deer consistently but there are lots of areas for big elk. Eastern Colorado was near the top of the list for mule deer but has recently taken a bit of a downturn due increased tags due to CWD “management” (a joke). We used to take six a year scoring over 200” and a couple dozen 180”-195” bucks but now we are down to a couple over 200” and about ten to twelve over 180”. Other good areas are parts of Alberta and select ranches in Sonora MX. Of course there are great areas such as the Arizona Strip, Henry Mtns in Utah and a couple others but those are essentially, once in a lifetime draws for licenses. Money can buy you several opportunities for big elk but there’s not that many areas available for big mule deer, even with a big pocketbook. Below is my best mule deer. The recent horrible turn in mule deer management in Colorado probably means I won’t kill another one as big.

 

[mark-hunter]

A decent public land or wilderness bull elk in an area that is relatively easy to get licenses in is much harder to kill consistently than a decent 4x4 mule deer, in my experience.

Sounds interesting.
What state do you recommend - for non residents to hunt on public land? What is the season for rifle hunting? What is expected price? Can drop me a pm.

 

[revturbo9967]

EHD is really taking a toll in Montana from what I’ve heard. Still good bucks there in the 180s and larger but the reproductive genetics are being lost due to ehd. It won’t affect a mule deer the same as whitetail and kill the mulie buck, but will affect their reproductive organs and drop their testosterone levels substantially. Many hunters killing bucks are finding them in velvet in late fall, with shrunken testicles or completely without. I fear it will start to affect all western states over time depending on spring and summer droughts.

 

[WAB]

Great buck Scott!

 

[Rubberhead]

To me, a fun and memorable hunt is a series of events where each event has some risk of failure. It adds when these events each requires a different skillset or attribute to accomplish; planning, preparation, travel, navigation, determination, endurance, precision, etc.

Who wants a puzzle made up of only one piece and what good is a chain with only one link...

 

[VertigoBE]

This, what many of us where describing in our words, is also defined in some hunters education programs.
100% must, is part of psychology of beginner.

So less then 100% kill success means evolution of individual hunters personality, that grows with time and experience.

My comments are below italic in brackets. the rest is qouted. Will put a link below for the source, but similar descriptions can be found elsewhere with different schools.

• The five stages of hunter development are:
  • Shooting Stage
  • Limiting-Out Stage
  • Trophy Stage
  • Method Stage
  • Sportsman Stage

Shooting stage: (shoot anything)
The priority is getting off a shot, rather than patiently waiting for a good shot. This eagerness to shoot can lead to bad decisions that endanger others. A combination of target practice and mentoring helps most hunters move quickly out of this stage.

Limiting out stage (fill up legal limit, is must)
Success is determined by bagging the limit. In extreme cases, this need to limit out also can cause hunters to take unsafe shots. Spending time with more mature hunters helps people grow out of this phase.

(first two phases can also be typical for many hunters first time visiting Africa. they want all and want it now)

Trophy stage - selective hunter
The hunter is selective and judges success by quality rather than quantity. Typically, the focus is on big game. Anything that doesn’t measure up to the desired trophy is ignored.

(after first few "begginers safaris, somebody wants at least minimum non fenced 45 inch buffalo? or free roaming leopard? or 60 inch kudu? this is not 100% guaranteed hunt)

Method stage - success is hunting by choosing a method. How?
In this stage, the process of hunting becomes the focus. A hunter may still want to limit out but places a higher priority on how it’s accomplished.

(ethical hunt, stalking, tracking, exclusively by bow, specific animal? not guaranteed)

Sportsman stage
Success is measured by the total experience—the appreciation of the out-of-doors and the animal being hunted, the process of the hunt, and the companionship of other hunters.
(enjoying the time on African hunting fields, taking what Africa offers, cultural experiences etc)

Final stage: work in the community, mentoring, and returning to nature and to community
Part of the process of becoming a true, responsible sportsman is becoming involved in efforts to make hunting a respected sport.

(take a friend hunting with you, let him shoot first, tell him about hunting, mentor him)

• That includes teaching proper knowledge and skills to others, working with landowners, and cooperating with wildlife officials.
• It also includes joining conservation organizations dedicated to improving habitat and management efforts. Young hunters can be involved by joining organizations such as 4-H, Boy Scouts, and Girl Scouts, as well as by participating in wildlife projects in their local communities.
• Responsible, ethical behavior and personal involvement are both essential to the survival of hunting. How you behave and how other people see you will determine whether hunting will continue as a sport.

source...

Becoming a True Sportsman

www.hunter-ed.com

I've never heard of these 5 stages of a hunter, thanks a lot for sharing this. Most informative.

 

[Philip Glass]

I must say I believe Phillip has summed it up perfectly.
IMO if the outcome is predetermined like some shoots in SA it becomes unsporting and unacceptable no matter the perceived risk.

Knowledge, gear, skill set can only get you so far.
The question I’d like to table is,

Would we be passionate about hunting high fenced or Wilderness areas if the outcome was a guarantee?
Based on one’s answer to this question it places you in the true hunter outdoor adventurer or Killer bracket.
The latter (Killer) in my opinion being a stepping stone or growth phase on route to becoming a true hunter/outdoor adventurer…

I for one do not believe that it is a realistic expectation to be 100% all the time. Near 100% virtually flawless yes why not!!

My very best!

Thanks!

 

[mark-hunter]

I've never heard of these 5 stages of a hunter, thanks a lot for sharing this. Most informative.

Several schools of hunting teach this, and it is about right.
But it does not mean that we stop being hunters. Many develop to last phase, then return to stage 3 or 4.

But this also can be applied to any other activity, especially in sport. This is psychology.

Final stage of personal human development is mentoring, teaching and return to community. When you think about it, we as a species would never reach this point of cultural development, if individual senior members of community did not mentor younger ones.

 

[fourfive8]

I think times have changed, will continue to and areas for finding big mule deer and elk shift around some. The B&C record is as good as any for looking at areas and trends. 25 years ago I could have circled areas on a map producing relatively large numbers of 375-400+ pt elk. Right now… nope. For the past 23 years I’ve lived in one of the epicenters for large mule deer buck potential. I think it is a combination of both general habitat and genetics. But and it can be a big but… no matter the size potential or quality of habitat, deer and elk for that matter can’t get big if they don’t get old enough. Also, even in the areas with the greatest potential for large size, not every buck or bull will get big no matter their age. So it is also a game of odds. Conversely, some areas simply never produce the best heads no matter the conditions or average longevity.

Every year bucks like this are fairly common around my place. Many are migratory, depending on snowpack and local conditions.

 

[Scott CWO]

I think times have changed, will continue to and areas for finding big mule deer and elk shift around some. The B&C record is as good as any for looking at areas and trends. 25 years ago I could have circled areas on a map producing relatively large numbers of 375-400+ pt elk. Right now… nope. For the past 23 years I’ve lived in one of the epicenters for large mule deer buck potential. I think it is a combination of both general habitat and genetics. But and it can be a big but… no matter the size potential or quality of habitat, deer and elk for that matter can’t get big if they don’t get old enough. Also, even in the areas with the greatest potential for large size, not every buck or bull will get big no matter their age. So it is also a game of odds. Conversely, some areas simply never produce the best heads no matter the conditions or average longevity.

Every year bucks like this are fairly common around my place. Many are migratory, depending on snowpack and local conditions.View attachment 521033

True and a big buck can show up about anywhere, especially in Colorado and parts of other states with good genetics. However, the last few years, Colorado has doubled and tripled buck licenses in most of the state, except in the Gunnison Basin units where CWD has yet to be found.

 

[Shooter375]

Yes, it takes effort and experience to successfully hunt elk year in and year out. Most people don’t make the effort. I was unsuccessful my first year but learned a lot. I got a bull each year after that and then started guiding after five years. To consistently kill a nice bull elk on public land is the toughest feat in North American hunting. Congrats to you!

Full disclosure. Over the last seven years I have harvested an elk on public land but not all have been a bull. I view all elk as a trophy. Also, elk are great eating. Something interesting is that on many hunts I would have been able to kill a bull, even a big bull before I was able to kill a cow elk. The reason I did not kill the bull was because I did not have an any elk tag but a cow elk only tag. The any elk tags are much more difficult to draw and in some hunter management areas bull elk hunting is not allowed.

 

[Shooter375]

When most RSA hunts are advertised as "come shoot X animals in Y days" then people's expectations go high to 100% certainty.

You can find many examples of those types of advertisements on this very site.

I have hunted in Africa many times. Once, I hunted under a package deal like this. The hunt in 2015 was a Kudu, a Nyala, a Zebra, an Impala, and a Warthog, in 4 days. I paid a certain price for the hunt whether I harvested these animals or not the price was the same. This hunt was great, plenty of animals, plenty of opportunities. I took all of the animals on the list and even more from the price list. My cousin and two of his son's accompanied me. They were all able to take a few extra animals (impala's + warthogs) from the price list as well. I took a 26.5" Nyala the evening of the last day but I did have opportunity to shoot 8-10 other Nyala before this time. The Kudu was probably the game species that I had the fewest opportunities to harvest. I took a 51" bull which was the 3rd good bull we saw but was the first one that I was able to get a shot at. I shot a beautiful zebra stallion the first morning. We saw a ton of zebra. I shot a representative impala easily but I already had a mounted 23.5" impala. We did see a huge impala later. I probably should have shot it and paid from the trophy list in retrospect. The warthog was very lucky, I shot a huge old boar. One of the largest boars I have ever seen. The ph said it was one of the largest he had ever hunted. Did I expect 100% success rate when I booked the hunt - yes. Was it a high fenced hunt - yes. Was it a canned hunt - no. We hunted two properties that were large enough that the animals could easily avoid us. There were many people living in communities just outside the fence. Would these animals exist without a high fence - I don't think so. The animals lived and reproduced on this property, so it was not put and take. Was it a great hunt - absolutely.

 

[revturbo9967]

True and a big buck can show up about anywhere, especially in Colorado and parts of other states with good genetics. However, the last few years, Colorado has doubled and tripled buck licenses in most of the state, except in the Gunnison Basin units where CWD has yet to be found.

I saw some monster 190+ bucks in gunnison when hunting elk. Had to look twice a few times, some were taller then you average raghorn

 

[Safari Dave]

This, what many of us where describing in our words, is also defined in some hunters education programs.
100% must, is part of psychology of beginner.

So less then 100% kill success means evolution of individual hunters personality, that grows with time and experience.

My comments are below italic in brackets. the rest is qouted. Will put a link below for the source, but similar descriptions can be found elsewhere with different schools.

• The five stages of hunter development are:
  • Shooting Stage
  • Limiting-Out Stage
  • Trophy Stage
  • Method Stage
  • Sportsman Stage

Shooting stage: (shoot anything)
The priority is getting off a shot, rather than patiently waiting for a good shot. This eagerness to shoot can lead to bad decisions that endanger others. A combination of target practice and mentoring helps most hunters move quickly out of this stage.

Limiting out stage (fill up legal limit, is must)
Success is determined by bagging the limit. In extreme cases, this need to limit out also can cause hunters to take unsafe shots. Spending time with more mature hunters helps people grow out of this phase.

(first two phases can also be typical for many hunters first time visiting Africa. they want all and want it now)

Trophy stage - selective hunter
The hunter is selective and judges success by quality rather than quantity. Typically, the focus is on big game. Anything that doesn’t measure up to the desired trophy is ignored.

(after first few "begginers safaris, somebody wants at least minimum non fenced 45 inch buffalo? or free roaming leopard? or 60 inch kudu? this is not 100% guaranteed hunt)

Method stage - success is hunting by choosing a method. How?
In this stage, the process of hunting becomes the focus. A hunter may still want to limit out but places a higher priority on how it’s accomplished.

(ethical hunt, stalking, tracking, exclusively by bow, specific animal? not guaranteed)

Sportsman stage
Success is measured by the total experience—the appreciation of the out-of-doors and the animal being hunted, the process of the hunt, and the companionship of other hunters.
(enjoying the time on African hunting fields, taking what Africa offers, cultural experiences etc)

Final stage: work in the community, mentoring, and returning to nature and to community
Part of the process of becoming a true, responsible sportsman is becoming involved in efforts to make hunting a respected sport.

(take a friend hunting with you, let him shoot first, tell him about hunting, mentor him)

• That includes teaching proper knowledge and skills to others, working with landowners, and cooperating with wildlife officials.
• It also includes joining conservation organizations dedicated to improving habitat and management efforts. Young hunters can be involved by joining organizations such as 4-H, Boy Scouts, and Girl Scouts, as well as by participating in wildlife projects in their local communities.
• Responsible, ethical behavior and personal involvement are both essential to the survival of hunting. How you behave and how other people see you will determine whether hunting will continue as a sport.

source...

Becoming a True Sportsman

www.hunter-ed.com

Adding to this would be pointless.




SD

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Several schools of hunting teach this, and it is about right.
But it does not mean that we stop being hunters. Many develop to last phase, then return to stage 3 or 4.

But this also can be applied to any other activity, especially in sport. This is psychology.

Final stage of personal human development is mentoring, teaching and return to community. When you think about it, we as a species would never reach this point of cultural development, if individual senior members of community did not mentor younger ones.

My father had thought me this as a young boy. He is touching on 80 now. Great to have it in the format you had provided,
Best Jaco

 

[fourfive8]

True and a big buck can show up about anywhere, especially in Colorado and parts of other states with good genetics. However, the last few years, Colorado has doubled and tripled buck licenses in most of the state, except in the Gunnison Basin units where CWD has yet to be found.

You are correct. Setting bags and seasons that place heavier pressure on the older age class of mule deer bucks can be extremely counterproductive! It is a common trap I have watched play out over the years in various states.

I picked up a fairly fresh set of typical matched sheds a few years ago just across the state line in NM on the Jicarilla boundary that would score in the low 200s with average width. That area is within a region that spans the CO-NM border that has a history of producing really large mule deer. In mule deer areas of the west sheds also can tell the story of potential.

Here locally, also known for good potential for large sized elk, I have not seen a decent head taken out during season in years. The last really good elk on the hoof I saw was about 10 years ago. It was on private land, out in the middle of no where in the P-J in December. Not far from the CO- Utah state line near Montecello. It was easily a 400 pt bull. The last good hunter killed bull, 375-400, I've seen was this past year in the back of a PU in NW NM. The tag was not a state tag so my guess it came from either the Jicarilla or Southern Ute. 25 years ago, numbers of 360-400+ pt bulls were coming out of NM units 10, 13, 15 and isolated parts of northern 16 sub units. Many of those including, road kills and illegal kills, eventually ended being sold by the State of NM to various Cabela's across the country Similarly some of the reservations in AZ have consistently produced 400 pt bulls.

As an aside, I live about 5 miles from where this famous deer was taken by Burris from TX back in the early 70s.