6.5 Creedmoor for hunting

[Daisy]

look at the E chart attached above (it's >1,000 ft/lbs of Energy more at the muzzle). Indisputable. And, it's a 6.5 for God's sake (130-160 gr bullets.) We're not talking big boy .338 or DG gun here. They are a PLEASURE to shoot. IF recoil bothers you, get a larger/larger surface area pad, make the gun heavier (Hg reducers, all steel mounts, bipod, full mag/cartridges on sling or stock, quality big scope, etc.) I use a brake on the long range shooters simply to be more accurate (put everything in your/terminal performance favor) for those shots, but it's not absolutely necessary from a felt recoil perspective.

I just don’t shoot better with more recoil. I like to use th appropriate bullet on game with the lowest recoil not the highest. That’s where all the manbun stuff comes from.

I wouldn’t use a sledgehammer to drive a nail. I would use a hammer.

I shoot all the way up to a 416 Ruger. I don’t think that’s the best gun for deer size game. I don’t shoot it as well as a 223 or 6.5.

I just don’t believe muzzle energy matters that much for the bullets terminal effect on game.

 

[375Fox]

It didn’t with my elk. Also didn’t work my kudu or gemsbuk or Wildebeast with a federal fusion, but I was using a 308

Federal Fusion is a bonded bullet. It is not designed to shatter and explode.

 

[Daisy]

R Wa

Federal Fusion is a bonded bullet. It is not designed to shatter and explode.

At anything over about 2200fps it sheds about 40% of its weight. So I feel like I get both, a deep driving core and an explosive wound channel.

Here is shank I found in offside hide of my elk.

The bottom part of the lead is fused to the jacket. But it pretty much sheds most of the lead otherwise.

 

[Daisy]

Shot side ribs showing explosive nature.

offside ribs showing shank size exit hole.

 

[slam8031]

I sometimes think we forget about wound channel as the primary thing that matters in the taking of an animal. I’ve watched videos of tim Wells dropping a spear out of a tree, so does velocity really matter as much as we think? I’ve watched multiple bow hunters effectively kill every animal on the planet, so downrange energy from a projectile traveling under 250-300 ft per second seems to be less important than wound channel. I’m not saying I want to kill a charging Cape buffalo with a 22 cm, but a well built projectile (arrow, spear, shotgun slug, bird shot or rifle bullet) from an accurate weapon and an accurate shot will create a wound channel that kills the animal.
I have hunted and harvested over 30 animals in Namibia and RSA with a 7 rem mag and 375 H and H. I don’t wear a man bun. But from a physics and physiology standpoint, wound channels into vital tissue and tissue disruption lead to death. If the brain can’t function, if the heart can’t pump or if the lungs can’t push oxygen …

 

[Mauser78]

It didn’t with my elk with 140gr from 6.5. Also didn’t with my kudu or gemsbuk or Wildebeast with a federal fusion, but I was using a 308.

It’s just a difference of how I look at what ammo to use. No big deal. I know i am in the minority here.

Federal fusion is a bonded bullet, and good quality hunting bullet, it would work 100%, and would not blow up. What 140gr did you use on your elk?

The Eldx is made to be a normal bullet at 600-700 yards, so at 100 yards it is a hand granade.

 

[Daisy]

I sometimes think we forget about wound channel as the primary thing that matters in the taking of an animal. I’ve watched videos of tim Wells dropping a spear out of a tree, so does velocity really matter as much as we think? I’ve watched multiple bow hunters effectively kill every animal on the planet, so downrange energy from a projectile traveling under 250-300 ft per second seems to be less important than wound channel. I’m not saying I want to kill a charging Cape buffalo with a 22 cm, but a well built projectile (arrow, spear, shotgun slug, bird shot or rifle bullet) from an accurate weapon and an accurate shot will create a wound channel that kills the animal.
I have hunted and harvested over 30 animals in Namibia and RSA with a 7 rem mag and 375 H and H. I don’t wear a man bun. But from a physics and physiology standpoint, wound channels into vital tissue and tissue disruption lead to death. If the brain can’t function, if the heart can’t pump or if the lungs can’t push oxygen …

100 percent.

That’s why, in my opinion only, energy doesn’t matter that much. It is tissue damage caused by the bullet fragmenting or peeling causing direct tissue damage, with also some concussive shock to other organs or the nervous system.

Velocity only tells you how that bullet should react at certain speed thresholds.

 

[Daisy]

Federal fusion is a bonded bullet, and good quality hunting bullet, it would work 100%, and would not blow up. What 140gr did you use on your elk?

The Eldx is made to be a normal bullet at 600-700 yards, so at 100 yards it is a hand granade

Fusion. See pics above.

Fusions grenade quite a bit too at higher velocities.

 

[Mauser78]

Fusion. See pics above.

Fusions grenade quite a bit too at higher velocities.

100%
I think when way say the bullet breaks up, we mean it breaks up completely, not on the far side under the hide, i mean doesnt even reach the virals before it is an empty shell.
What you get with the fusion is what we want, and that is good performance on a cup and core bullet for Plains game

 

[Daisy]

100%
I think when way say the bullet breaks up, we mean it breaks up completely, not on the far side under the hide, i mean doesnt even reach the virals before it is an empty shell.
What you get with the fusion is what we want, and that is good performance on a cup and core bullet for Plains game

I can agree with you there. Best of both worlds imo.

I think eld-m can be great shot behind shoulder double lung. It can get messy with far less penetration if in bone.

I haven’t used eld-X much but have a 22 creedmoor being made that I’ll probably shoot the 80gr eldx so may have some data at some point.

At this time the tipped federal fusion is my favorite. They are slow to load them in some of the newer rounds bc of Hornady imo.

If I was getting another larger caliber I would consider the 7mm backcountry with the tipped federal fusion ammo.

 

[375Fox]

Fusion. See pics above.

Fusions grenade quite a bit too at higher velocities.

Shedding some weight is not a grenade. That bullet retained its properties to continue penetrating like a hunting bullet is supposed to do. Something like a hornady V-max meets the definition of a grenade that shatters and explodes and there is no bullet to recover and limited penetration. Looks like fusion falls into the same class of soft bonded bullets like Accubond or Oryx that expand rapidly but still mostly hold together.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I just don’t shoot better with more recoil. I like to use th appropriate bullet on game with the lowest recoil not the highest. That’s where all the manbun stuff comes from.

I wouldn’t use a sledgehammer to drive a nail. I would use a hammer.

I shoot all the way up to a 416 Ruger. I don’t think that’s the best gun for deer size game. I don’t shoot it as well as a 223 or 6.5.

I just don’t believe muzzle energy matters that much for the bullets terminal effect on game.

Out to about 300 yds (generally speaking-some like the 30-30 about 150 yds) most cartridges can kill deer. The ones I prefer will result in a DRT scenario. The others will require some bloodtrailing. African PG are not constructed like deer, so a bit more focus should be placed on the cartridge and bullet combo. (Even the 3006, which is the beginning of Ok in Africa does 2,750 fps-3,000 using a min. 150 gr slug-ideally 180 and up, with considerable more energy than the needmore, and the animals will still run a bit before expiring.) My recommendation would simply be to limit the distance and use heavier (140s+) bullets. Energy matters. (It and bullet construction is what drives a bullet to maximum expansion upon contact with resistance.) I believe there's even a difference in smaller caliber slugs on truly wild (vs. farmed) animals, the latter of which typically have only us as predators (think of 'em as ultraliberals.) They've been pampered and are weaker. Even spooked, just stopped running wild springbok/impala can take some "lead!!" SMH at the factory creed lightweight ammo for that. It's been done, but I can't recommend it unless you use the proper bullet and limit the range, and only then on small stuff. 140-160 grains and under 250 yds in Africa IF you like it. The more capable case options WILL perform better with insignificant add'l. recoil. (As I said, take a look at the RPM and PRC, as they are the beginning of fine for most normal ranges with heavier, better performing bullets IMO.) And, I'd not use a ping pong ball in lieu of a stone (the stone has MUCH greater Energy!) There is NO 6.5 out there where the recoil compares to a 416. NOT even close. Totally different league (DG gun.) The needmore is like a 6.5-223. Needs more steam for Africa. For deer, antelope, varmints at home...Ok to about 300ish yds. 400 with a bloodhound.

 

[Daisy]

Shedding some weight is not a grenade. That bullet retained its properties to continue penetrating like a hunting bullet is supposed to do. Something like a hornady V-max meets the definition of a grenade that shatters and explodes and there is no bullet to recover and limited penetration. Looks like fusion falls into the same class of soft bonded bullets like Accubond or Oryx.

maybe so. Def not a total grenade like eldm. I think of fusions like a lead version of the cutting edge or hammer bullets.

I would not use eldm in Africa. I would use the tipped federal fusion and probably eldx, although the latter is still pretty frangible.

 

[Daisy]

Out to about 300 yds (generally speaking-some like the 30-30 about 150 yds) most cartridges can kill deer. The ones I prefer will result in a DRT scenario. The others will require some bloodtrailing. African PG are not constructed like deer, so a bit more focus should be placed on the cartridge and bullet combo. (Even the 3006, which is the beginning of Ok in Africa does 2,750 fps-3,000 using a min. 150 gr slug-ideally 180 and up, with considerable more energy than the needmore, and the animals will still run a bit before expiring.) My recommendation would simply be to limit the distance and use heavier (140s+) bullets. Energy matters. (It and bullet construction is what drives a bullet to maximum expansion upon contact with resistance.) I believe there's even a difference in smaller caliber slugs on truly wild (vs. farmed) animals, the latter of which typically have only us as predators (think of 'em as ultraliberals.) They've been pampered and are weaker. Even spooked, just stopped running wild springbok/impala can take some "lead!!" SMH at the factory creed lightweight ammo for that. It's been done, but I can't recommend it unless you use the proper bullet and limit the range, and only then on small stuff. 140-160 grains and under 250 yds in Africa IF you like it. The more capable case options WILL perform better with insignificant add'l. recoil. (As I said, take a look at the RPM and PRC, as they are the beginning of fine for most normal ranges with heavier, better performing bullets IMO.) And, I'd not use a ping pong ball in lieu of a stone (the stone has MUCH greater Energy!) There is NO 6.5 out there where the recoil compares to a 416. NOT even close. Totally different league (DG gun.) The needmore is like a 6.5-223. Needs more steam for Africa. For deer, antelope, varmints at home...Ok to about 300ish yds. 400 with a bloodhound.

Bullet manufacturers don’t give a minimum energy threshold for bullet terminal ballistics. They do give a minimum velocity threshold.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I sometimes think we forget about wound channel as the primary thing that matters in the taking of an animal. I’ve watched videos of tim Wells dropping a spear out of a tree, so does velocity really matter as much as we think? I’ve watched multiple bow hunters effectively kill every animal on the planet, so downrange energy from a projectile traveling under 250-300 ft per second seems to be less important than wound channel. I’m not saying I want to kill a charging Cape buffalo with a 22 cm, but a well built projectile (arrow, spear, shotgun slug, bird shot or rifle bullet) from an accurate weapon and an accurate shot will create a wound channel that kills the animal.
I have hunted and harvested over 30 animals in Namibia and RSA with a 7 rem mag and 375 H and H. I don’t wear a man bun. But from a physics and physiology standpoint, wound channels into vital tissue and tissue disruption lead to death. If the brain can’t function, if the heart can’t pump or if the lungs can’t push oxygen …

velocity is simply to extend the range of a cartridge and make its longer range ballistics (less wind drift, drop, maintain energy at range (for targets and hunting), but many of us find that the higher imparted energy works very well to drive quality bullets into toughly-constructed African game (and on trickier, non-broadside shots...quartering toward, frontal, and some people's fav the TX heart shot.) The 300 WM really hammered that home as a teen, after starting with a 30-30, then graduating to a 30-06 (I borrowed a 308 once and it was like a creedmore to me in the long farm field country I hunt in,) and then the 300 WM. I got rid of that gun as I accidentally collected a 2nd deer (at 150 yds) behind the target. Tagged both, but decided hot 6.5s (and some 7s, and even 3006) were about what I needed. Africa? I like .338-.375 on PG with some exceptions (PG includes Kudu, Wildebeest, Zebra, Giraffe, Eland.) Eland can weigh 24x that of a deer. A wildebeest can be 750 lbs (that's a better constructed elk.) Impala are deer size, but more toughly constructed. To the chagrin of MSM/marketing departments out there: "Use More Gun!" A good shot with insufficient energy to put that quality bullet where it needs to be and how it needs to perform inside, is not a good shot. They shot down 223 semis where i live immediately, on the basis of same. Not to mention the WWIII that would ensue during the big game seasons. If i had $10 for every deer collected a 1/2 mi away from the shot for neighbors (using inappropriate, lightweight cartridge/varmint bullet combos-223, 22-250, 243) I'd have an extra $360 today (PV of $120 in 1980s.) LOL Sound advice to would-be puny new cartridge buyers would be like what I'd say about the MSM: Listen to what they say, do the exact opposite and you WILL succeed! (Same as politicians, corporations.) Teach your kids this! (Mine are both Dr.s and they are beginning to appreciate this wisdom very much!)

 

[C.W. Richter]

Bullet manufacturers don’t give a minimum energy threshold for bullet terminal ballistics. They do give a minimum velocity threshold.

well, they probably know that new math was being taught for awhile. E=MV (aka Force=MA). IF you plug a given bullet weight (M=Mass) in tandem with the velocity (V) into any ballistic calculator, it will spit out the terminal energy. And why do you think they leave it off the boxes?? Because execs decided it was a bad idea (esp on sm cartridges) for sales. ALL about money. Greater profits for lesser costs. Make it smaller! Following McDs lead on the ever-shrinking hamburger size Michael Douglas so eloquently explained in Falling Down! Quality ammo. mfrs show the energy on the box OR they say without saying that the accompanying energy is effective on game to the range shown on the side of the box. I've seen this...on my son's factory 3006 ammo. Good to 400 yds (180 gr Guide load at 2600 fps). They're using the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) business model for sales. Or, only tell them what we want them to know. lol Programming. Advertisement. POWERFUL. I detest it, as do 15% of people out there who are informed by the other 5%. Sad but true. The remaining 80% just fall in-line and mark their every word for the big sale...

 

[C.W. Richter]

I'd be game for a cull hunt sometime, along with some creedmore, 223 et al fans. Bring your pets along and we'll show you the true capabilities of rounds out there in .257/.264/7. I'll even let you take some shots you thought impossible. (I like big 338s too, but even a hot 7/30/338 is in a diff. league than what we're talking about-6.5s). I recall a couple times passing on animals because I didn't think the shot was sporting (considering the capability of the gun. LOL now!) Just don't hog the guns, pls. As they're not priced like coca-cola (to sell in volume/cheaply/greatest profit margins), most pass them over. Not all need them, but IF they go on far away (or otherwise important, short-duration, expensive-or simply hunt territory that will occasionally present a 400+ yd shot on some monsters,) you should consider these (and better ammo/bullets!!). Same thing Art Alphin of A-Sq touted, in different words-and he was right! Going cheap (small) in the guns dep't. may not be the way for a fairly expensive African hunt, either. I consider my guns my greatest hunting assets. Tools to get the job done well in any situation. NOT what most are told on TV. lol They have to perpetuate the sales for industries of their masters...We also have a combined deer/bear season here, and I'd not like to have to shoot a bear several times with a 127 gr needmore pill to keep my hospital bill manageable! LOL 3006 w/ 200 gr bullets, MINIMUM. They get to be <900 lbs and they make death moans just like cape buffalo when shot with enough gun. And, I do not consider black bear to be tougher to kill than any med-sized PG-they are TOUGH.

 

[Mauser78]

I'd be game for a cull hunt sometime, along with some creedmore, 223 et al fans. Bring your pets along and we'll show you the true capabilities of rounds out there in .257/.264/7. I'll even let you take some shots you thought impossible. I recall a couple times passing on animals because I didn't think the shot was sporting (considering the capability of the gun. LOL now!) Just don't hog the guns, pls. As they're not priced like coca-cola (to sell in volume/cheaply/greatest profit margins), most pass them over. Not all need them, but IF they go on far away (or otherwise important, short-duration, expensive-or simply hunt territory that will occasionally present a 400+ yd shot on some monsters,) you should consider these (and better ammo/bullets!!). Going cheap (small) in the guns dep't. may not be the way for a fairly expensive African hunt, either. I consider my guns my greatest hunting assets. Tools to get the job done well in any situation. NOT what most are told on TV. lol They have to perpetuate the sales for industries of their masters...

Ok, we get it, yours is bigger and better.
But i live in a country where we can not just go and buy guns with our groceries.
I have a creedmoor, not my first choice, but that was what was available a year ago, and i just got now after licencing, so not even zero’d in yet, and we are leaving for the first hunt in 3 weeks. If i want more foot pounds of energy, i will use my 375 with 230gr at 2950fps, i think that will work for the 30 pound springbuck. As soon as they hear that numbers they will jump right into my freezer.

 

[Mauser78]

This is my 6x45. 100gr round nose hornadys @2250fps. Shot 100’s of impala and blesbuck with it. Speed kills, but so does bullets.

 

[Red Leg]

I sometimes think we forget about wound channel as the primary thing that matters in the taking of an animal. I’ve watched videos of tim Wells dropping a spear out of a tree, so does velocity really matter as much as we think? I’ve watched multiple bow hunters effectively kill every animal on the planet, so downrange energy from a projectile traveling under 250-300 ft per second seems to be less important than wound channel. I’m not saying I want to kill a charging Cape buffalo with a 22 cm, but a well built projectile (arrow, spear, shotgun slug, bird shot or rifle bullet) from an accurate weapon and an accurate shot will create a wound channel that kills the animal.
I have hunted and harvested over 30 animals in Namibia and RSA with a 7 rem mag and 375 H and H. I don’t wear a man bun. But from a physics and physiology standpoint, wound channels into vital tissue and tissue disruption lead to death. If the brain can’t function, if the heart can’t pump or if the lungs can’t push oxygen …

I generally agree. However, that damage, like the projectile and what launched it, can be proportional to the animal and still very lethal. Like @Philip Glass, on almost any deer sized game I would much rather have a .30 inch hole going and .31 inch hole leaving from a tough heavy bullet through what matters than an explosive exit wound. Animals die just as quickly with a lot less destruction of meat or pelt. Such a bullet also causes significantly more tissue damage than any arrow (yes, I use to hunt fairly extensively with a bow).

I have used a 6.5 on a lot of European game in the form of 6.5x57 and 6.5x57R. The traditional heavy for caliber 154 gr loads in those drill pencil size entrance wounds and slightly larger than pencil size exit wounds on roe deer in Europe and whitetail in this country. The load is extremely lethal, and causes minimum destructive tissue damage to what does not matter.

Most recently in Zambia, I used my .275 with a traditional heavy for caliber 170 gr load for everything from bushbuck to a sable. That load, in this case Oryx, performs exactly the same.

What I find of zero interest to me, at least with respect to game, are fast light for caliber loads. They are needlessly destructive, too often do not exit, and have a far higher potential for not penetrating sufficiently. So yes, the Creedmoor can be a fine choice - with the right load.