Put and take / property size?

[wildfowler.250]

Well folks, this isn’t intended as a can of worms so please bear with me as it’s meant with good intentions.


I’ve just read an old thread from 2012 as I’m keen to try my best to avoid somewhere that’s put and take. Now, I can completely understand possibly buying in a couple of males as a one off to vary the genetics. Or, if you’re starting up an new area to be hunted as a self sustaining population 10 years down the line. But the thought that animals are being bought in on a regular basis for shooting doesn’t appeal to me.

Is there a certain acreage where the populations are likely to be self sustaining without put and take?

What sort of size of property do you need where it would be classed as vast? So the animals can completely disappear never to be seen again? It’s run for 2 miles and gone into another valley idea.

Or do you need to solely hunt cattle farms for peace of mind? I suspect you could ask the guides in advance but that is relying on honesty and transparency,(with folk you’ve never met as a first time hunt).


I’m not wishing to criticise anyone or any outfitter. Just trying to work out how I can ensure that a hunt is ‘fair chase’. I appreciate the majority of SA is high fence purely to manage their properties and I can come to terms with that. I just want to avoid somewhere that routinely “tops up” like a trout fishery if that makes sense.


Thanks!

 

[IvW]

Just book with one of the outfitters on this forum and you will be safe.....

 

[R.M.C.]

I would avoid 400 acre pens and such but I think ivw has it right. Aren't many put and take operations sponsoring this site. Good luck with your search, I hunted with Moretla safaris last year and had a great hunt.

 

[Rare Breed]

I’m hunting with Africa Sun in 3 weeks

 

[rookhawk]

Well folks, this isn’t intended as a can of worms so please bear with me as it’s meant with good intentions.


I’ve just read an old thread from 2012 as I’m keen to try my best to avoid somewhere that’s put and take. Now, I can completely understand possibly buying in a couple of males as a one off to vary the genetics. Or, if you’re starting up an new area to be hunted as a self sustaining population 10 years down the line. But the thought that animals are being bought in on a regular basis for shooting doesn’t appeal to me.

Is there a certain acreage where the populations are likely to be self sustaining without put and take?

What sort of size of property do you need where it would be classed as vast? So the animals can completely disappear never to be seen again? It’s run for 2 miles and gone into another valley idea.

Or do you need to solely hunt cattle farms for peace of mind? I suspect you could ask the guides in advance but that is relying on honesty and transparency,(with folk you’ve never met as a first time hunt).


I’m not wishing to criticise anyone or any outfitter. Just trying to work out how I can ensure that a hunt is ‘fair chase’. I appreciate the majority of SA is high fence purely to manage their properties and I can come to terms with that. I just want to avoid somewhere that routinely “tops up” like a trout fishery if that makes sense.


Thanks!

Put and take isn't just about acres, but also the carrying capacity of the habitat, and the frequency of hunting pressure.

As an example, friends have a 3000 acre main lodge in Zim that has a self-sustaining herd of Wildebeast, Zebra, and Impala. Kudu jump the fence coming and going, as do Eland. But the utilization of the property is very low since its a dangerous game base camp with game viewing. Only occasional harvest inside the 3000 acres for leopard baits.

I know I didn't answer your question squarely, but I'd like to see 8000-10000 acres with NO internal fences to assume fair chase and natural hunting conditions exist, minimum. Yes there are exceptions like the one above, but its not the normal case I was sharing.

 

[mdwest]

Just book with one of the outfitters on this forum and you will be safe.....

+1 to @IvW 's response..

an acceptable size of property is really going to depend on what particular species of PG youre talking about, the size of the herd(s) youre talking about, and what other animals are sharing that same property.. the truth is a 10K acre piece of property could be run as a put and take operation, just like a 1K acre piece of property could be. its really situation dependent.

The key is to stick with known, reputable, established outfitters.. and to ask questions of both the outfitter and of other hunters that may have hunted with that particular outfitter before..

I think you'll find that most outfitters in South Africa have to add animals to their herds periodically.. whether its to bring in new genetics.. or add to herds that may have been hit with disease.. or been hit hard by predators (for example.. I know of a few SA outfitters that have had their smaller PG species decimated by caracal, jackals, etc), etc..etc.. I also know that during COVID a number of outfitters had to rely on local "biltong" hunters to be able to keep their businesses afloat since European and US hunters couldnt come over and that some of them pretty much had to allow their properties to be over hunted for a few years just to be able to generate enough revenue to stay alive.. as I understand it, thats created a bit of a spike in the breeding market as demand for new animals has gone up at a high rate in order to replenish the herds..

Adding a few animals from time to time doesnt necessarily mean that the herds arent typically self sustaining.. it may just mean that something has happened and there is a need to bring in a few more (again, COVID - Over hunting out of necessity, predators, disease, etc).. Its also very possible that an outfitter buys a new bull this year, and six months to a year later that same bull gets hunted by someone.. That doesnt really equate to a put and take operation, where an outfitter buys a specific animal and puts it on the property purposely a very short period of time before a specific hunter shows up... with the intention of putting that specific hunter onto that specific animal.. typically before the animal is fully climatized to its new surroundings or even aware that it might be getting hunted when it hears a bakkie off in the distance..

 

[sgt_zim]

I'm hunting with Limcroma next August (I just need to run over to the bank tomorrow and start giving them my $$$)

I'm with @IvW - most of the advertisers here always seem to get stellar reviews by the folks from this forum who patronize them.

 

[375Fox]

You really need to ask questions about management. If you get answers that seem evasive or unsatisfactory just move on. The definition of self sustaining and put and take seems to be changing in South Africa. Several of the South African sponsors on this site actively participate in CBL shooting. That is somehow no longer defined as put and take apparently. Same with crocs stocked into small ponds and properties with only bull sable and bull buffalo. Don’t just assume a sponsor doesn’t participate in any put and take practices. Ask questions about how many hunters they take per year and at same time, how many properties they hunt, size of properties, how many other outfitters hunt these properties, how many years experience they have hunting these properties, how many PHs they have and how long those PHs have hunted for outfitter. These questions will give you a feel for how they operate. Game is readily available for sale in South Africa. There is an outfitter many here have defended as only hunting self sustaining animals. However they are also running 20-40 hunters per week within a 30 minute drive for 5 months a year. Those numbers should make someone seriously question if it’s really self sustaining. No outfitter wants to admit participating in put and take because it will damage their reputation with many US clients. There are large properties every local outfitter will bring their hunters too because it gives illusion of self sustaining, but are heavily stocked throughout the season. Then there are smaller properties managed as self sustaining where only a few hunters will hunt per year. You really need to just ask questions about the outfitter and game management to decide. I’d ask the most questions about management in Limpopo. I’d ask less questions and feel more confident about eastern cape.

 

[wildfowler.250]

Just book with one of the outfitters on this forum and you will be safe.....

Thanks. And I do feel this is very sensible given that they’re well reviewed outfitters. But if they have a high volume of customers that they have, how would you ever know they’re not routinely topping up? I’m not suggesting they are. It’s just trying to work out how to avoid the whole, buy/release/shoot scenario.


It may well be a minority that do this. It’s just to try and ensure everything is “fair chase”.

I would avoid 400 acre pens and such but I think ivw has it right. Aren't many put and take operations sponsoring this site. Good luck with your search, I hunted with Moretla safaris last year and had a great hunt.

Okay 400 acres sounds tiny. That gives a good perspective on size then.

I’m hunting with Africa Sun in 3 weeks

Enjoy!

Put and take isn't just about acres, but also the carrying capacity of the habitat, and the frequency of hunting pressure.

As an example, friends have a 3000 acre main lodge in Zim that has a self-sustaining herd of Wildebeast, Zebra, and Impala. Kudu jump the fence coming and going, as do Eland. But the utilization of the property is very low since its a dangerous game base camp with game viewing. Only occasional harvest inside the 3000 acres for leopard baits.

I know I didn't answer your question squarely, but I'd like to see 8000-10000 acres with NO internal fences to assume fair chase and natural hunting conditions exist, minimum. Yes there are exceptions like the one above, but its not the normal case I was sharing.

No that’s really helpful. So if I see somewhere with a much larger area than that, I know it should be on the right lines.

I hadn’t considered internal fences, something I’ll add in!

+1 to @IvW 's response..

an acceptable size of property is really going to depend on what particular species of PG youre talking about, the size of the herd(s) youre talking about, and what other animals are sharing that same property.. the truth is a 10K acre piece of property could be run as a put and take operation, just like a 1K acre piece of property could be. its really situation dependent.

The key is to stick with known, reputable, established outfitters.. and to ask questions of both the outfitter and of other hunters that may have hunted with that particular outfitter before..

I think you'll find that most outfitters in South Africa have to add animals to their herds periodically.. whether its to bring in new genetics.. or add to herds that may have been hit with disease.. or been hit hard by predators (for example.. I know of a few SA outfitters that have had their smaller PG species decimated by caracal, jackals, etc), etc..etc.. I also know that during COVID a number of outfitters had to rely on local "biltong" hunters to be able to keep their businesses afloat since European and US hunters couldnt come over and that some of them pretty much had to allow their properties to be over hunted for a few years just to be able to generate enough revenue to stay alive.. as I understand it, thats created a bit of a spike in the breeding market as demand for new animals has gone up at a high rate in order to replenish the herds..

Adding a few animals from time to time doesnt necessarily mean that the herds arent typically self sustaining.. it may just mean that something has happened and there is a need to bring in a few more (again, COVID - Over hunting out of necessity, predators, disease, etc).. Its also very possible that an outfitter buys a new bull this year, and six months to a year later that same bull gets hunted by someone.. That doesnt really equate to a put and take operation, where an outfitter buys a specific animal and puts it on the property purposely a very short period of time before a specific hunter shows up... with the intention of putting that specific hunter onto that specific animal.. typically before the animal is fully climatized to its new surroundings or even aware that it might be getting hunted when it hears a bakkie off in the distance..

Thanks. Completely fair points. I think I just need to find out whether they buy in at all and hope for honesty.

I'm hunting with Limcroma next August (I just need to run over to the bank tomorrow and start giving them my $$$)

I'm with @IvW - most of the advertisers here always seem to get stellar reviews by the folks from this forum who patronize them.

Certainly a name I’ve read on here before. Hope you have a good trip!

Conversely, are there any ‘bad’ reviews on here? You only tend to hear about the good write ups.

You really need to ask questions about management. If you get answers that seem evasive or unsatisfactory just move on. The definition of self sustaining and put and take seems to be changing in South Africa. Several of the South African sponsors on this site actively participate in CBL shooting. That is somehow no longer defined as put and take apparently. Same with crocs stocked into small ponds and properties with only bull sable and bull buffalo. Don’t just assume a sponsor doesn’t participate in any put and take practices. Ask questions about how many hunters they take per year and at same time, how many properties they hunt, size of properties, how many other outfitters hunt these properties, how many years experience they have hunting these properties, how many PHs they have and how long those PHs have hunted for outfitter. These questions will give you a feel for how they operate. Game is readily available for sale in South Africa. There is an outfitter many here have defended as only hunting self sustaining animals. However they are also running 20-40 hunters per week within a 30 minute drive for 5 months a year. Those numbers should make someone seriously question if it’s really self sustaining. No outfitter wants to admit participating in put and take because it will damage their reputation with many US clients. There are large properties every local outfitter will bring their hunters too because it gives illusion of self sustaining, but are heavily stocked throughout the season. Then there are smaller properties managed as self sustaining where only a few hunters will hunt per year. You really need to just ask questions about the outfitter and game management to decide. I’d ask the most questions about management in Limpopo. I’d ask less questions and feel more confident about eastern cape.

I love these questions and I’m going to jot them down and use them. Really helpful.

I honestly didn’t know they reared crocs. Doesn’t seem to be a limit with any of it which is why it is quite daunting - even if in the minority.

Can I ask what CBL shooting is?


Thanks!

 

[mark-hunter]

Can I ask what CBL shooting is?

CBL Captive bread lion shooting.

it became notorious in hunting circles, and cause to fight a war and reason to live in anti hunting circles.

If properly done within ethical guidelines, I have nothing against it.

If there is no CBL option, true wild lion would be out of financial reach of many hunters. (40-50k? or more?)
So CBL is option to hunt one of big 5 for economic price.

lets say, blue collar hunter, completes: CBl lioness - 5k, buffalo cow - 4k (both in South Africa), tuskless elephant (Zimbabwe) 15k, dehorned white rhino (south Africa or namibia) - 17k, and leopard - 20k in farm land of Namibia.

He has option to collect big 5, for arguably reasonable price.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

lets say, blue collar hunter, completes: CBl lioness - 5k, buffalo cow - 4k (both in South Africa), tuskless elephant (Zimbabwe) 15k, dehorned white rhino (south Africa or namibia) - 17k, and leopard - 20k in farm land of Namibia.

@mark-hunter I think you had me in mind...

Here are a couple hunt reports about my CBL hunt followed by a my wife and me hunting @Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS on their 13,500 acres. That's 21 square miles or over 54 square kilometers with NO internal fences.

As for me, I hunt not for the trophy on the wall but for the experience. The old elephant sport hunters would sell their ivory to pay for their next license. I read that as an adolescent and I think it has stuck with me ever since. Thus, with limited budget I have had a great time hunting CBL and cull animals.

CBL Hunt in Kalahari:
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ses-hunt-with-tally-ho-hunting-safaris.71691/

Cull Hunt @Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS

SOUTH AFRICA: Cull Hunt With Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS - October 2022

Cull Hunt at @Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS – October 2022 I had arrived in SA on Sunday evening. We traveled to the Kalahari on Monday, hunted lionesses on Tuesday thru Thursday morning, and drove to Limpopo the remainder of Thursday. (See the thread Kalahari Lionesses with Tally Ho Safaris) The...

www.africahunting.com

 

[mark-hunter]

Is there a certain acreage where the populations are likely to be self sustaining without put and take?

For me, 5000 to 7500 hectars (12355 - 18532 acres).
I will accept less with smaller number of species.
i am not the expert on this matter, especially with breeding and life cycles of african animals.


My hunting area in Europe (for comparison), under govt concession and management of local hunting club has following data:
total area 11.400 hectars (28.180 acres).
There animals roam free without fences, and has internal hunting areas of 7.600 hectars (18780 acres), where hunt can take place.

Some areas are non huntable because of vicinity of urban areas, villages or houses or roads, and area is adjacent to suburban parts of city.

Plenty of wood and grass. Plus artificial feeding by hunters.

Base game pool is: 90 red deer, 276 roe deer, 60 boars.
From that numbers, total number of annual big game tags is about: 15 red deer, 56 roe deer, 30 wild boar, 1 or 2 brown bears, per year plus huntable birds.

101 - 104 tags per year. (on 11.400 hectars)

I am sure African game species have different biology and breeding cycles, but also I am sure it cannot go to multiple extreme in numbers in natural environment.
very frequently animals in large fenced areas are supported by artificial water wells (at least) or additional food supply, but they dont get in contact with humans as well. And they really are wild and sometimes challenging to hunt.

 

[mark-hunter]

@mark-hunter I think you had me in mind...

Of course!
We, blue collar boys must support each other!

 

[Philip Glass]

Your best bet is to be fully informed on the acreage of where you are hunting. My last two safaris were on Frontier Safaris 130,000 acre game ranch in Namibia and their 75,000 acre game ranch in the Eastern Cape. This is just an example of a place that is simply too big to be put and take.
do your homework!

 

[Andrew62]

I’m hunting with Africa Sun in 3 weeks

I'm hunting with Justin myself in 5 weeks, PLEASE leave me something to shoot!!! lol

 

[Nyati]

It also depends on what the hunter requires, if someone wants a trophy of a given size, magically, a crate containing the required animal will appear.

This is a business, your friendly outfitter will do all he can to keep you happy...for a price

This is not hearsay, I have seen this happen, 44 inch sable (twice), 43 inch buffalo.

 

[sgt_zim]

Thanks. And I do feel this is very sensible given that they’re well reviewed outfitters. But if they have a high volume of customers that they have, how would you ever know they’re not routinely topping up? I’m not suggesting they are. It’s just trying to work out how to avoid the whole, buy/release/shoot scenario.


It may well be a minority that do this. It’s just to try and ensure everything is “fair chase”.



Okay 400 acres sounds tiny. That gives a good perspective on size then.



Enjoy!



No that’s really helpful. So if I see somewhere with a much larger area than that, I know it should be on the right lines.

I hadn’t considered internal fences, something I’ll add in!




Thanks. Completely fair points. I think I just need to find out whether they buy in at all and hope for honesty.




Certainly a name I’ve read on here before. Hope you have a good trip!

Conversely, are there any ‘bad’ reviews on here? You only tend to hear about the good write ups.



I love these questions and I’m going to jot them down and use them. Really helpful.

I honestly didn’t know they reared crocs. Doesn’t seem to be a limit with any of it which is why it is quite daunting - even if in the minority.

Can I ask what CBL shooting is?


Thanks!

I have seen 1 negative-ish review for Hunter's Hill, but all of the other reviews I've read about that outfit have been glowing. I don't know if they do put/take or not, but I do know they have about 55,000 contiguous acres, so likely the ecosystem is self-supporting for pretty much anything you might hunt there. They do offer a few non-native species - Aoudad comes to mind - but Aoudad have become self-sustaining in the mountainous areas in SW Texas, I expect they'd be self-sustaining in the eastern Cape as well. The only caveat to that one specie is there is little in the way of predation in Texas - a few mountain lions and (if one can believe the rumors) some jaguars. Coyotes and bobcats would only be an issue for lambs, not for adults.

 

[375Fox]

I love these questions and I’m going to jot them down and use them. Really helpful.

I honestly didn’t know they reared crocs. Doesn’t seem to be a limit with any of it which is why it is quite daunting - even if in the minority.

On the other thread you listed 3 outfitters I wouldn’t have any problem booking a hunt with. Don’t over think this too much. It’s really not a small minority of outfitters like it’s tried to be portrayed, it’s common especially in certain regions, but it’s pretty easy to recognize the outfitters who make questionable practices a large part of their business. Advertising all hunts on their own single privately owned property, advertising specific huge trophies, advertising very inexpensive sable, heavily advertising CBL lions it’s clear to see. Sable, Buffalo, Croc, color variants, huge trophies are commonly farmed and released for hunting. Stay with the outfitters who are advertising general packages and standard plains game trophies then take trophies native to the area. Ask those questions to get a feel for how they operate, tell the outfitter what you want and don’t want, and you’ll enjoy your hunt.

 

[IvW]

On the other thread you listed 3 outfitters I wouldn’t have any problem booking a hunt with. Don’t over think this too much. It’s really not a small minority of outfitters like it’s tried to be portrayed, it’s common especially in certain regions, but it’s pretty easy to recognize the outfitters who make questionable practices a large part of their business. Advertising all hunts on their own single privately owned property, advertising specific huge trophies, advertising very inexpensive sable, heavily advertising CBL lions it’s clear to see. Sable, Buffalo, Croc, color variants, huge trophies are commonly farmed and released for hunting. Stay with the outfitters who are advertising general packages and standard plains game trophies then take trophies native to the area. Ask those questions to get a feel for how they operate, tell the outfitter what you want and don’t want, and you’ll enjoy your hunt.

Most positive post I have seen from you regarding hunting in SA...well done...

 

[375Fox]

I have seen 1 negative-ish review for Hunter's Hill, but all of the other reviews I've read about that outfit have been glowing. I don't know if they do put/take or not, but I do know they have about 55,000 contiguous acres, so likely the ecosystem is self-supporting for pretty much anything you might hunt there. They do offer a few non-native species - Aoudad comes to mind - but Aoudad have become self-sustaining in the mountainous areas in SW Texas, I expect they'd be self-sustaining in the eastern Cape as well. The only caveat to that one specie is there is little in the way of predation in Texas - a few mountain lions and (if one can believe the rumors) some jaguars. Coyotes and bobcats would only be an issue for lambs, not for adults.

This is one of the operations it would be good to ask how many hunters are pushed through each year. A big property causes some questions to not get asked.