Y'all are missing the bigger picture: rhinos move to extinction

How long would it take to debone a lion? 2 or 3 guys under an hour maybe 2? Would they worry about all the bones or only the high profit? (My guess legs and head I'm not sure) They are not worried about damaging anything. If they kill the pride male, it's a death sentence for all the young regardless.
Probably not long to debone one lion but if they get into a whole pride and start shooting them up with AKs . Then you have a job that will take some time. They absolutely have no concerns about ethics or conservation so they will go to hacking up the animals. Hopefully the lions will get some payback and chomp a few poachers.
 
Now due to the public outcry after the lies of the antis concerning Cecil the lion and the CBL debate RSA is ending the practice. What is being missed is that rhino ownership will now be banned as well. This is after John Hume, Trophy the film, finally went bankrupt and had to sell out to the govt/NGO. The rhino will now face certain extinction or simply be relegated to zoos.
So here is a big thank you to all you anti sympathizers. All you armchair critics of CBL operations. And all of our organizations starting with PHASA, thank you. You did the most damage to conservation in modern history. The CBL is gone and most won't lose sleep over it but the rhino is gone as well.
AS HUNTERS WE MUST HANG TOGETHER OR HANG SEPARATELY!

what is sad is the incredible safe healthy rhino population there is at Windshoek. I do not want to share numbers on our public forem but suffice it to say they are impressive
 
Rhinos are in danger of going extinct in the wild because of severe poaching for their horn. Lions are not. Wild lion numbers overall are not what they were, but almost all suitable areas in hunting countries that can hold lions do. Most of those same areas should hold rhino but almost none do. Many haven’t for 40 years. I’d prefer to see a legal horn trade to boost or hold rhino numbers. I unfortunately don’t think we will ever see a successful wild rhino introduction again unless a billionaire makes it his life’s goal or the demand for rhino horn ends. However, I think there is a major difference between rhinos and lions. Lions breed very fast and reach maturity relatively quickly. Rhinos breed slow and live 40 years. If you loose the base population of rhino the options would be very limited to bring the numbers back. 20,000 wild lions could multiply quickly if the land was available but it really isn’t. Also, rhinos are not raised for hunting. Hunting might offset the final cost after 30 or 40 years, but that’s all. No or almost no CBL lions are allowed to live naturally on game ranches beyond their short release period they sell to hunters, but many rhinos are on game ranches living a mostly wild existence. It’s a complicated issue. It’s not a perfect world. The real bigger picture of this should be support ethical hunting practices and stop questionable practices before they can do damage.
A simple issue it certainly isn't.

As there currently is some kind of legal lion bone trade, the original reason for which lions were raised, do you think that this trade is alleviating pressure from the wild populations? Basically, if you stop the current legal industrialized source of lion bone for Asia, will they not rapidly turn to the alternative, being wild lion?

You also mention that rhino's are not raised for hunting. But rather for the potentially more lucrative (but now it seems impossible) horn trade. Isn't the hunting of them just an additional revenue stream connected to this specie? I suppose the same case could be made for lion's then. I cannot remember who coined it as "CBL is the rearing of lion's to supply lion bone to Asia, with a unique harvesting model".
 
About 90 Rhinos are legally hunted each year in SA and Namibia of which about 4 are black.....if the total number are taken into consideration that is about 1.7% of the population.....the revenue is huge and it goes back into conservation of the species. Again uninformed individuals make assumptions.......assuming rhinos are not kept for hunting purposes.....
Again shit in your nest and sit in it......

Rhino never mind lions will now be doomed.....
.
 
A simple issue it certainly isn't.

As there currently is some kind of legal lion bone trade, the original reason for which lions were raised, do you think that this trade is alleviating pressure from the wild populations? Basically, if you stop the current legal industrialized source of lion bone for Asia, will they not rapidly turn to the alternative, being wild lion?

You also mention that rhino's are not raised for hunting. But rather for the potentially more lucrative (but now it seems impossible) horn trade. Isn't the hunting of them just an additional revenue stream connected to this specie? I suppose the same case could be made for lion's then. I cannot remember who coined it as "CBL is the rearing of lion's to supply lion bone to Asia, with a unique harvesting model".
I did not state rhinos are raised for their horn. I said they are not raised for hunting. John Hume was likely raising them strictly hoping for a legal horn trade, but for most it would be a passion project or a novelty on your land (probably while hoping for a legal horn trade). Protecting a rhino for 30-40 years and selling for $25,000 isn’t a good investment, but would recover some of the loss especially if you could do some dart hunts. I see nothing dishonest about those raising rhinos or holding them on their game farms. Possibly the CBL outfitters are more honest now, but the industry is a dishonest industry. Maybe less so than 10 years ago though after all the bad publicity. I’m uncertain the reputation damage they cause equals the potential conservation value in the bone trade. I’m quite certain you do remember who made the quote.
 
About 90 Rhinos are legally hunted each year in SA and Namibia of which about 4 are black.....if the total number are taken into consideration that is about 1.7% of the population.....the revenue is huge and it goes back into conservation of the species. Again uninformed individuals make assumptions.......assuming rhinos are not kept for hunting purposes.....
Again shit in your nest and sit in it......

Rhino never mind lions will now be doomed.....
.
How many years of anti-poaching would $19,900 pay for? That is not huge revenue likely a loss at the end of the day.
 
There is not enough land and habitat for large wild animals to exist in Africa as they did 100 years ago. Native Africans are multiplying and every year require more hectares on which to live, raise subsistence maize and rape, and graze cattle. As the habitat shrinks, violent interactions increase between Africans and wildlife such as elephant, lions, and rhinos. That in turn leads to natives “not seeing” poachers, or animal population reduction via legal hunting. The end result will be less wild animals, year after year. Corresponding to decreasing populations, the gene pool of these animals also shrinks. This cannot be good.

There will come the day when lions are affected genetically as are whatever causes elephants to be born tuskless. Loss of habitat means elephants can no longer migrate long distances as they once did. Add to that human poaching for ivory. These and perhaps other factors combined caused mutating the species into tuskless elephants. What if all elephants become tuskless due to human population increases, habitat loss, and poaching? Gosh, wouldn’t it be great if there were genetically sound elephants to re-introduce into the mutated gene pools? Like a Supreme Court Justice, I am not a biologist (although I know enough not to try to milk a bull) so I am not certain but maybe a re-introduction of sound genetics would save the species.

As for rhinos, farm raising them can’t hurt anything. If on a large enough ranch, they could legally be hunted, why not? Yes, I know darting achieves much the same as shooting them. And if rhino horn could be legally sold, the horns could be harvested routinely. If these efforts maintain a healthy gene pool, greatly reduces poaching, and provides consumers what they desire, what the heck is wrong with that?

Having healthy, protected populations of wild animals on ranches is good. That however must generate enough revenue to pay the expenses.
 
As the professionals statements/links listed in the "other" thread mentioned I am not only worried about CBL and rhino but I am fairly sure when I read the SA announcement this new laws are intended to trickle down and include closures for every species born and transported to be hunted. If this ever does get implemented the words hunting grounds for Jo average will be severely reduced. The word safari will become only for the wealthy few.

And we still bad mouth, belittle and attack each other?????

MB
 
Somebody please take the keyboard away from fox. It seems every topic now.
I find 375Fox's view points and opinions "well thought". He seems to do his research and he is simply voicing his opinion. This is an open forum. He has stated, "The real bigger picture of this should be support ethical hunting practices and stop questionable practices before they can do damage." 375Fox is "a voice of reason".
 
This is a direct consequence of our industry's refusal to self-regulate.

If hunters and hunting organizations had condemned CBL shooting practices as unethical from the beginning, then this issue wouldn't even exist. But because the practice persisted and became a big political issue, the baby (rhino breeding) is now at risk of being thrown out with the bathwater (CBL).

I believe that it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. You can support rhino breeding and private ownership due to the obvious conservation benefits, while also recognizing CBL shooting as unethical.

My hope is that organizations like SCI and DSC will lobby the South African Government to allow the continuation of rhino breeding.
 
How many years of anti-poaching would $19,900 pay for? That is not huge revenue likely a loss at the end of the day.
I'm not sure about white rhinos, but black rhino hunting permits usually go for a very high price.

In 2014, a hunter named Corey Knowlton won an auction to hunt a black rhino in Namibia, bidding $350,000. After the auction, he said that he felt the amount he paid was low. The reason it wasn't higher is because anti-hunters scared away people with more money. According to him, black rhino permits often go for up to a million dollars.
 
I'm not sure about white rhinos, but black rhino hunting permits usually go for a very high price.

In 2014, a hunter named Corey Knowlton won an auction to hunt a black rhino in Namibia, bidding $350,000. After the auction, he said that he felt the amount he paid was low. The reason it wasn't higher is because anti-hunters scared away people with more money. According to him, black rhino permits often go for up to a million dollars.
I wouldn’t have posted that if IvW didn’t make his condescending remark about uninformed individuals making assumptions. However, I can’t see how rhinos can pay their own way through strictly hunting. I read the average is something around $2000 per rhino per year spent in anti-poaching on private land. One of the areas I’ve hunted that held the most rhino ran a very successful photo tourism operation along with the hunting. Eventually they’d hunt them but the photo tourism adds value waiting on a bull to grow old (if poacher didn’t get the rhino first). Hunters will also be drawn to areas they can see a rhino possibly making the area more valuable. Rhinos are a liability on most properties because it makes them a poaching target. I think many rhinos are more of a passion project than an investment. There have been several very low end offers posted here that I unfortunately assume are liquidation sales to remove them and the liability from the properties. There are some areas especially in Namibia that get very good prices for their white rhinos. Black rhinos I don’t see publicized beyond the one you mentioned so I don’t know, but I believe there is no ownership of black rhinos in Namibia. Ranches can only apply to be custodians of them. If I’m wrong on that someone can correct me.
 
It's like here in Europe.

Some "hunters" who are proud of killing any kind of specimen they see, no matter which age (99.9% too young), which sex, which angle they shoot at the animal, etc. and afterwards are posting this sh*t and telling everyone how fun it was just to shoot at something, even if they didn't know what they were shooting at...

That kind of stuff is ruining the traditional hunting culture we have here.
And of course that's exactly what anti-hunting lobbies need to prove all other people that hunting is exactly like this and should be forbidden.
And it's not the fault of the formerly uninformed people that they believe anti-hunting slogans, because that's exactly what they see in this videos, pictures,...

It's OUR fault as hunters that we don't blame those black seeps and tell all the people that this is not hunting and that such persons shouldn't even be allowed to hunt anything on this planet any more...
Yes, we have to stand together - but we definitely shouldn't protect the black sheep within...
We should inform all people in a proactive way what hunting is giving back...

Unless we are not able to do this, hunting in general is doomed
 
Here is a shinning example of how to ruin the hunting reputation and heritage with one idiotic act. He allegedly, ran down a wolf with a snowmobile. Injuring it enough that he could tape its muzzle.



This has caused an uproar on social media. It’s already all over the internet or I wouldn’t post it. But it’s important that we as hunters publicly castigate and throw people like this out of or groups. In front of the lurking anti hunters.

Also, I think trappers posting pictures next to a live animal with its foot in a trap is along the same lines as this idiot. I have no issues with trapping, but Dispatch the animal as soon as possible. don’t sit next to the live animal and take a picture.
 
Here is a shinning example of how to ruin the hunting reputation and heritage with one idiotic act. He allegedly, ran down a wolf with a snowmobile. Injuring it enough that he could tape its muzzle.



This has caused an uproar on social media. It’s already all over the internet or I wouldn’t post it. But it’s important that we as hunters publicly castigate and throw people like this out of or groups. In front of the lurking anti hunters.

Also, I think trappers posting pictures next to a live animal with its foot in a trap is along the same lines as this idiot. I have no issues with trapping, but Dispatch the animal as soon as possible. don’t sit next to the live animal and take a picture.


q.e.d.
 
John Hume went bankrupt before this intent to prohibit CBL was announced. John Hume went bankrupt because there is no legal rhino horn trade. You are spreading misinformation and you have no idea what this will or will not mean for rhinos in South Africa in game ranches in the future. You are simply jumping on the headline without information to support your statements.
Also, CBL is to be phased out over a 2-yr period. Still not good, but it hasn't officially ended, Yet.
 

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