.416 Rigby & .458 Lott - Equal Recoil?

[Tex .416]

I was reading an article on loads for .416 Rigby and the author made a comment that a .416 Rigby and .458 Lott had equal recoil, which surprised me.

I have never shot a .458 anything other my .45-70, but for those that have used both, is this even close to accurate? Yes, I can and have used the online recoil calculators, but have found them to not really be an accurate predictor of felt recoil which can even change with very minor changes in a load in the same rifle.

Just curious as I definitely do not need any more rifles. (Did I really say that? )

 

[RR 314]

That surprises me as well. I have owned both very similarly weighted AHR DGR rifles and the Lott definitely has more perceived recoil.

 

[dogcat1]

My one and only Lott was a jarring to the soul type gun. A Ruger RSM.
My 416 Rigby is a hard push but does not seem as serious as the Lott.
The 416 Rem Mag seemed a bit sharper than the Rigby but was tolerable.
The Lott was more than I could handle.

 

[rifletuner]

Depends on a lot of variables like weight of rifle, stock fit, etc. But I would expect a 416 Rigby with a 400gn bullet to have less recoil than a Lott shooting a 500 gn bullet assuming similar rifles. However with a modern action you can load a 416 Rigby up pretty hot, so yes if you stuff a lot of powder in chasing velocity, then I can see how recoil would be similar.

 

[Tex .416]

Here is the quote that surprised me:

"There is a reason why the .416 Rigby kicks a lot harder than a .458 Lott."

Link:

Ruger Model 77 Mk II Magnum Express Rifle - .416 Rigby

 

[PCC600]

My one and only Lott was a jarring to the soul type gun. A Ruger RSM.
My 416 Rigby is a hard push but does not seem as serious as the Lott.
The 416 Rem Mag seemed a bit sharper than the Rigby but was tolerable.
The Lott was more than I could handle.

In my opinion the Ruger Safari Magnum 458 Lott - was a very poorly set up rifle out of the box . I purchased one new in 2003 . After some initial target shooting I sent it away for stock extension on 0.75 inches , a big fat Kickeez to replace the hard , narrow original recoil pad and a 0.5 pound recoil reducer in butt to offset the heavy barrel . Once all this was done it became perfectly fine to shoot but I do wonder why Ruger hadn’t addressed these issues to begin with. With these modifications I think it had lower felt recoil than my new Rigby 416 Big Game . For what it is worth my 450 Rigby PH also seems to have a lower felt recoil than the 416 . Several very experienced big game shooters who have used my rifles also agree .

 

[Green Chile]

Recoil is somewhat different unless you play with it to make it similar. If you keep the gun weight the same at 10 lbs and run some standard loads, here are the numbers...

Here's a typical .416 Rigby load by the numbers...

And the 458 Lott at the same gun weight but with a typical Lott load...

Having said that, if you can handle one you can handle the other and it gets better if the gun fits you and has proper weight. Just for comparison, here's the numbers on a 10 lb 375 H&H with a typical 300 grain load...

So the 458 Lott in this comparison is about double the recoil of a 375 H&H of the same rifle weight...and the 416 Rigby is a little less than double the recoil of the 375. These are general comparisons to show the recoil energy. Much can be done to improve rifle fit, work on loads with less recoil, etc.

 

[TOBY458]

The numbers may look “worse” for the Lott, but I’ve shot both, and they both feel very similar. The extra velocity and larger powder charge of the 416 Rigby makes for a fast and hard punch. I believe that makes up for the little extra overall recoil of the Lott.

 

[Green Chile]

Recoil can be calculated...felt recoil is extremely subjective. I don't think there's much difference in the numbers above but they are offered to show how close the two examples are. Felt recoil would be related to gun fit and stock design and as mentioned, some powders seem to generate more felt recoil (probably a combination of recoil velocity and pressure variables).

 

[The Shootist]

It gets more interesting if you compare apples to apples. I‘d be interested to see the calculated recoil with both shooting a 400 grain bullet.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I think my CZ Lott with the factory wood stock and no scope (yet) shooting factory Nosler 500gr. Partitions, has no more felt recoil than my CZ Rigby with a fiberglass stock and mounted scope shooting factory 400gr. Hornady DGS? Kind of strange to me as the Rigby cartridges have way lower pressure than the Lott does, but the felt recoil doesn't seem to match the lower pressure? My unscoped and lighter wood stocked Whitworth .416 Taylor has noticeably less felt recoil then the Rigby with the same weight bullet and velocity? Odd.

 

[cajunchefray]

Recoil can be calculated...felt recoil is extremely subjective. I don't think there's much difference in the numbers above but they are offered to show how close the two examples are. Felt recoil would be related to gun fit and stock design and as mentioned, some powders seem to generate more felt recoil (probably a combination of recoil velocity and pressure variables).

In my limited experience, recoil velocity is a factor that matters to me. Small changes in recoil velocity, are more significant than recoil energy. I’ve run the numbers, and shot lighter weight.338 Win Mags,225 grain with top velocity, powder charges, kicked like hell.

I’d shoot a.375 H&H all day.

Beautiful rifle, Ruger M77 Express, great wood, I bought it at a bargain, I just couldn’t shoot it well. The stock just didn’t fit, so I sold it to someone that could shoot it.

The powder charge for the 416 Rigby, is above my limit. 75-80 grains of powder in the Lott, or 74 grains in the.458 Win Mag, I can handle.
95-100 grains in the .416 Rigby is just a sharp punch.

With that being said, my Ruger RSM .416 Rigby was a heavyweight punch . Just didn’t fit me.
The CZ 550 Rigby, American stock, was a light heavyweight punch, I could handle.

I still prefer the.458 Win Mag.
Less powder (74 grains vs.95 grains for the Rigby).
At least for me, that extra 20+ grains makes a big difference.
Everybody is different, but “a man’s got to know his limitations.”
I found mine.

 

[cajunchefray]

I think my CZ Lott with the factory wood stock and no scope (yet) shooting factory Nosler 500gr. Partitions, has no more felt recoil than my CZ Rigby with a fiberglass stock and mounted scope shooting factory 400gr. Hornady DGS? Kind of strange to me as the Rigby cartridges have way lower pressure than the Lott does, but the felt recoil doesn't seem to match the lower pressure? My unscoped and lighter wood stocked Whitworth .416 Taylor has noticeably less felt recoil then the Rigby with the same weight bullet and velocity? Odd.

Powder charge. The.416 Taylor is a good balance.
The.416 Rigby, while achieving lower chamber pressure, still ignites a lot more powder.
I don’t think the recoil formula fully captures that, but I’m no engineer.

 

[CoElkHunter]

In my limited experience, recoil velocity is a factor that matters to me. Small changes in recoil velocity, are more significant than recoil energy. I’ve run the numbers, and shot lighter weight.338 Win Mags,225 grain with top velocity, powder charges, kicked like hell.

I’d shoot a.375 H&H all day.

Beautiful rifle, Ruger M77 Express, great wood, I bought it at a bargain, I just couldn’t shoot it well. The stock just didn’t fit, so I sold it to someone that could shoot it.

The powder charge for the 416 Rigby, is above my limit. 75-80 grains of powder in the Lott, or 74 grains in the.458 Win Mag, I can handle.
95-100 grains in the .416 Rigby is just a sharp punch.

With that being said, my Ruger RSM .416 Rigby was a heavyweight punch . Just didn’t fit me.
The CZ 550 Rigby, American stock, was a light heavyweight punch, I could handle.

I still prefer the.458 Win Mag.
Less powder (74 grains vs.95 grains for the Rigby).
At least for me, that extra 20+ grains makes a big difference.
Everybody is different, but “a man’s got to know his limitations.”
I found mine.

My .458WM shooting factory Barnes 450gr. TSXs has about the same felt recoil to ME as my Lott shooting the factory 500gr. Nosler Partitions. So, either the Barnes are loaded hotter or the Noslers are loaded down? I had my WM first, so I thought the Lott was going to be brutal, but it wasn't. Go figure?

 

[CoElkHunter]

Powder charge. The.416 Taylor is a good balance.
The.416 Rigby, while achieving lower chamber pressure, still ignites a lot more powder.
I don’t think the recoil formula fully captures that, but I’m no engineer.

Oh, I believe you're right about the increased powder charge with the Rigby equaling more recoil. Even with its lower pressure. I too don't think the recoil VELOCITY is truly captured within the recoil charts. The Taylor has higher pressure than the Rigby but way less felt recoil to ME. My 8.5lb scoped Browning A Bolt .338WM has more felt recoil to me than my 9.3lb unscoped CZ .375. Maybe the weight difference there though?

 

[Green Chile]

More ejecta (powder weight) definitely increases recoil. The calculator includes that variable. With my big bores I try to run loads in the middle of the pack for less recoil but good velocity. A good example of ejecta affecting recoil is in running numbers for black powder loads versus nitro for black conversions in the same rifle. The differences are huge.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I wonder how the old Cordite "stick" powder designed for the .416 Rigby cartridge and other voluminous African hunting cartridges back in the day, compares as far as recoil with modern day powders? Actually, I guess the large capacity cases were designed for the available stick powder and not the other way around?

 

[Tex .416]

I wonder how the old Cordite "stick" powder designed for the .416 Rigby cartridge and other voluminous African hunting cartridges back in the day, compares as far as recoil with modern day powders? Actually, I guess the large capacity cases were designed for the available stick powder and not the other way around?

There is a discussion of that question in this article, scroll down quite a bit to the section on load data.

Ruger Model 77 Mk II Magnum Express Rifle - .416 Rigby

 

[CoElkHunter]

There is a discussion of that question in this article, scroll down quite a bit to the section on load data.

Ruger Model 77 Mk II Magnum Express Rifle - .416 Rigby

VERY interesting! I saved this to my favorites. Now I'm thinking (dangerous) modern powder made into the "spaghetti" sticks in 20,10, 5 and 1 grain increments. Cut them with a scissors to desired powder charge and put them into the cartridge case. No weighing of powder, funnels, jugs of powder or compression of a powder charge needed. They would come in a resealable package like spaghetti noodles. With modern Magnum primers it SHOULD work great. Somebody make it happen! LOL

 

[chino_cba]

In my 458 batch I shot with factory 458 win mag ammo and I didn't feel any difference.