Zimbabwe collared Elephant

[Philip Glass]

Note from @AfricaHunting.com: As this conversation was off topic from the original thread (https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ly-season-elephant-double-buffalo-hunt.42988/) I moved this conversation to its' own thread.



That bull has definitely caused quit a stir, being the second collared elephant that Martin has shot.

To my understanding he's been suspended from ZPHGA as a result of it, pending further investigation.

Royal
You shouldn’t post this unless you are sure of the facts.
I know FOR SURE it is perfectly legal to shoot any collared animal in Zim! It is NOT AGAINST ANY LAW CECIL BE DAMNED.
Let’s hear from @martinpieters on this subject.
Philip

 

[BRICKBURN]

The science seems to have left the building.
We need a monitoring system to stop My pet Elephants from leaving the park.

GCT is in the process of developing a monitoring system that can provide real time alerts of collared individuals leaving the boundary of the Gonarezhou National Park. It is thus particularly unfortunate that this capability was not available in time to potentially prevent this tragedy.

 

[BRICKBURN]

....... collars on a total of 22 individual elephants in the Park by GCT, .......... to provide data that could be used in mitigating the conflict between humans and elephants outside of the park boundary.

Did the fact that the Elephant was shot in a legal area not provide some data for the scientists about the conflict?

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Let’s hear from @martinpieters on this subject.
Philip

See @Martin Pieters Safaris post in this thread at the following link: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/zimbabwe-collared-elephant.43075/#post-441024.

 

[Philip Glass]

Ok guys I am going to get a little out of line and make some of you really mad. @Martin Pieters Safaris is my friend and trusted PH. I’ve trusted the man with my life. Many of you who seem to want to criticize him for a totally legal and ethical hunt need to get a life! Most of you likely will never go on safari for elephant so what does your opinion matter anyway? I said I was going to make you mad didn’t I? Well don’t attack my friend unfairly and in such a stupid and uneducated manner.
Let me educate you guys...... There is nothing that happens legally when an animal is collared. NOTHING! IT IS NOT OWNED BY A RESEACHER FROM EUROPE OR AMERICA! IT IS JUST A WILD ANIMAL.
PERIOD.
Sorry but I’ve had enough of this hunters attacking hunters BS.
Regards,
Philip

 

[Philip Glass]

It really seems the only reason for these collared animals is to cause some kind of conflict. Its a GPS thats all. It give no info on food consumed, females mated, parasites carried, just location! What the researchers need to do is get away from the computer screen and go into the bush and study the animals they might actually learn something useful.

For sure!

 

[enysse]

The more I think about Cecil the lion and this elephant, the more I think the antis found a rope to hang us. These "collared animals" are being made out to be "special". They make it sound like no self-respecting hunter would shoot one. Shame on anyone for buying that story. Does that mean when we move bighorn sheep or desert sheep with collars that "its a sin to shoot one later down the road when the hunting area is open to hunting in the USA or Canada. I admit the idea of shooting a collared animal is not appealing! But to me they didn't have to put the collar on the BIGGEST ANIMAL or MOST PHOTO APPEAL animal either!

 

[spike.t]

seem to remember reading the report from zphga stating the hunt was legal and above board what seems like a while ago...so a bit surprised and not sure what all the crap here is about.....

and as it was legal and above board as stated by zphga, i dont see why when martin posted the hunt report why he would need to have to/deem it necessary to put in any "extras" about the circumstances........it was a legal hunt....and as i presume that most on here have never hunted ele in the thick zim bush, especially at this time of the year so visibility isnt great .....so if martin saw good ivory of course he is going to tell client to shoot......as i would say any other zim ph would have in the same circumstance.....so whats the issue.....

 

[enysse]

This why hunting is doomed to be banned, we don't stand together and fight as one against the Anti-hunters..................

 

[Royal27]

Royal
You shouldn’t post this unless you are sure of the facts.
I know FOR SURE it is perfectly legal to shoot any collared animal in Zim! It is NOT AGAINST ANY LAW CECIL BE DAMNED.
Let’s hear from @martinpieters on this subject.
Philip

I never said it was illegal @Philip Glass , nor did I post anything I wasn't sure of.

 

[Philip Glass]

I stated facts, nothing more, nothing less. Facts that could have been included by MP and openly shared. If you think facts should be hidden from potential clients, well OK then. Your call.

If stating facts is "lighting a match" then I'm guilty as charged.



I wonder why telling the truth is bad for business?

Royal
This entire post is about the idea that it is wrong to shoot a collared animal. It is not. There is no controversy. This is he bottom line.
Philip

 

[Royal27]

Royal
This entire post is about the idea that it is wrong to shoot a collared animal. It is not. There is no controversy. This is he bottom line.
Philip

Might want to read it again.... I don't recall a single post that said shooting a collared elephant is wrong, or that even implied as much.. Perhaps I missed one in there somewhere though. To be clear though, we are in agreement that shooting a collared elephant isn't illegal in Zim.

 

[Philip Glass]

Might want to read it again.... I don't recall a single post that said shooting a collared elephant is wrong, or that even implied as much.. Perhaps I missed one in there somewhere though. To be clear though, we are in agreement that shooting a collared elephant isn't illegal in Zim.

Agreed! Thank you.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

This why hunting is doomed to be banned, we don't stand together and fight as one against the Anti-hunters..................

I don't think we have to worry about that, with the passion that is being played out in this thread! What we need is to focus our passion in the right places at the right time and we will prevail!!

 

[Wheels]

I don't get the if ethical comment @Wheels . It's not like the PH is got a tracking device and is going after the collared elephant.

Next we are going to have wolves hunted in Wyoming. I can see this scenario playing out. A guy is elk hunting, has a wolf tag along just in case. He's hunting with a guide up in the Thoroughfare or Two Oceans Pass a few miles from the Yellowstone park boundary. A wolf moves through the dark timber. Then stops. Guy shoots it and discovers a collar. He and the guide turn the collar in and everything is legal. USFWS and Wyoming Fish and Game state that it's legal. Then the antis start a campaign against the outfitter, guide and the hunter for killing the collared wolf. Where are we as a hunting community going to stand with that hunter?

This topic is about Zimbabwe, not Yellowstone.

Ethics, unlike law, is personal and/or a social baseline. ie: When my wife and I go our separate ways in America, we normally kiss each other goodbye and say I love you. If we do the same thing in some countries in public, it is considered morally reprehensible. When we are in Tanzania, we do not kiss in public. No pda. It is the morals/ethics of that society that dictates my personal behavior. Therefore, my morals/ethics in America may be the same as they are in Tanzania, yet I may choose to express them differently while in another society.

As I have said multiple times on this thread, I understand it is legal to shoot a collared elephant in Zimbabwe. In a previous post, I even congratulated MP on a great bull. But, is it against the ethics in their society. This I don't know. What I do know is that ZPHGA suspended MP for shooting a collared elephant. Parks suspended a ranger for being involved in the most recent collared elephant hunt. The ivory has been confiscated pending investigation. If shooting a collared elephant is not against the law, then why did these things happen?

It would be great if a representative of ZPHGA would come on here and explain the situation concerning the suspension of MP. Or, a member of parks to discuss the suspension of the ranger and the confiscation of the ivory.

 

[Hank2211]

Lots of back and forth on this, and both sides seem to be right, but both also seem to be ignoring what I think is the principal issue here.

As a hunter, would you want your PH to tell you if an animal you are considering shooting has a collar or not? This isn't a question of whether it's legal to shoot a collared animal or not (it is); and this isn't about whether it's ethical to shooter a collared animal (that's a personal call).

It's a sad reality of life in the West that shooting a collared animal can have different consequences for the hunter than shooting a non-collared animal. Given that fact, and given what happened to Dr. Palmer, I think it's only reasonable that the decision to shoot a collared animal or not be that of the hunter, rather than the PH. The issue is one of disclosure, nothing more.

I am also not naive. I know that collars can be hard to see, especially on lions with heavy manes. But we hire professional hunters to tell us which are the old animals, which are the male animals, which are the mature animals, how big the animals are if we're looking for a gold medal or Rowland Ward, etc. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that looking for a collar be part of that as well.

I can tell you that when I was hunting with my youngest boy recently, I would have been seriously put out if he had unknowingly shot a collared animal and the predictable sh**storm had ensued, with perfectly foreseeable consequences for his work in New York City (not exactly a bastion of hunting).

 

[Brent in Az]

Governing bodies seem to make knee jerk decisions, based on who screams the loudest. Way too many entities caving in to the Liberal agenda.

 

[thi9elsp]

Ok, so how about a 'tracking tag'? Below is a snipet from what Paul Allen is supporting to track elephant movement and be able to reduce poaching. What happens when an animal that has a tracker tag or is part of that group is shot? The more tags on animals the fewer we can ethically hunt? The more we as a hunting community accept that we shouldn't do something that is legal, the further we slide down the slope of giving in to the antis. All they need to do is collar, tag, etc. an animal and now its off limits? Pretty soon Africa will look like a cattle ranch with tags in all of the animals ears so then they won't be hunted.

"Allen’s DAS uses technology to go the distance that humans cannot. It relies on three funnels of information: ranger radios, animal tracker tags, and a variety of environmental sensors such as camera traps and satellites."

 

[Wheels]

Ok, so how about a 'tracking tag'? Below is a snipet from what Paul Allen is supporting to track elephant movement and be able to reduce poaching. What happens when an animal that has a tracker tag or is part of that group is shot? The more tags on animals the fewer we can ethically hunt? The more we as a hunting community accept that we shouldn't do something that is legal, the further we slide down the slope of giving in to the antis. All they need to do is collar, tag, etc. an animal and now its off limits? Pretty soon Africa will look like a cattle ranch with tags in all of the animals ears so then they won't be hunted.

"Allen’s DAS uses technology to go the distance that humans cannot. It relies on three funnels of information: ranger radios, animal tracker tags, and a variety of environmental sensors such as camera traps and satellites."

I presume this is directed towards me so I will answer.

We can hypothesize and run what if's, ad infinitum. In the end, it won't matter because the decision is going to be made in Zimbabwe, not by you and me.

Laws get made because people perceive an injustice and call on their lawmakers to right the perceived wrong. If we want a law that states it is illegal to shoot a collared elephant in Zimbabwe, then we need to keep shooting collared elephants. Zimbabwe and the court of public opinion will make it happen. If we don't want a condemning public changing the laws to harm hunting, especially in foreign countries, then we shouldn't continue to push the envelope. Paul may have said it best, "Abstain from all appearance of evil". I am not saying that shooting a collared elephant is evil, but I think the verse underscores the issue.

 

[Brent in Az]

So......if these Tusks got confiscated, does the hunter get them back? A refund for the trophy fee? Or is the hunter S.O.L?