Would a 450 grain .458 Win Mag be a perfectly acceptable standard for elephant?

Many years ago I picked up 88 Barnes 450gr FN solids for ..50c a piece. Never knew what kind of bargain I got ;-)

View attachment 595990
baxterb,
That would be the bullet that Richard Harland commented on as successful for elephant hunters at 2300 fps MV.
That is routine in a .458 WinMag SAAMI-satisfying handload.

Game rangers doing control work:
Richard Harland killed 2 or 3 thousand elephants with his .458 WinMag FN Mauser.
Ron Thomson killed 5 or 6 thousand also with his .458 WinMag FN Mauser and he did it,
amazingly, with factory 500-gr RN FMJ "solid" bullets.
He never had his bullets bounce off any elephant.
Lucky enough not to get any sabotaged factory loads ?
He never let them age very long before use either.

The handloaded .458 WinMag with 450-gr brass FN solid at 2300 fps MV is a much better killer.
A 500-gr RN solid of any sort is more likely to veer off course, fishtail, tumble, just no comparison to a brass FN.
A shorter bullet length is also inherently more stable.
Sectional density is important, but it is not everything.
The 450-gr/.458 has plenty SD.
 
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So given that the Barnes 450 grain FN solid and the CEB 450 grain solids have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, it stands to reason that a shorter 450 grain lead core solid, also with .306 SD, should work fine as well.

Maybe I have it in my head that retaining 2150 fps is more important than losing 30 grains off the old 480 grain standard. And IIRC I've read that modern solids are better than they used to be too. If shorter solids with less length are less likely to bend, and flat noses less likely to go off course, then maybe a 450 grain solid is better than a 500 grain choice in the Win Mag, though the 500 grainers have been doing it fine for decades.

Further searching yielded lots of good info here:
 
And once again.................

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber

Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........

#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.


#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......


All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........



#6 Velocity

Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........



#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......


#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............



These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................
 
Mark O. and were talking yesterday and discussing the hundreds of variables that make it hard to pick THE rifle.

But man it would be hard to beat a PG and DG combo of .458 WM and 30:06

Many other sexy combos but that venerable combo would cover a lot of hunting territory
 
Very true Jay...you could substitute within a range of that but if you factor in ammo availability world wide...you probably end up right there.
 
Could a 450 grain solid or Swift A-frame out of a .458 Win Mag be a Goldilocks loading that hits 2200-2300 fps without load compression, and still provide everything needed for Elephants?

IE could one safely let go of the 500 grain .470 Nitro Express paradigm, given the advances in bullet construction? Seems like dropping the bullet weight 10%, adding a little powder space and velocity while lowering the overall recoil could be a sweet spot for the .458 WM?

Submitted for discussion given the massive experience on this forum. Thanks!
Pretty much any solid will work for ele brain shots. I am sure your setup will work.
 
I've always read that the 480grain bullets were the perfect compromise between weight and velocity for the .458 WinMag. That would have a S.D. of .327.

Also side note, as someone who doesn't reload, what is the max powder charge (number of grains) that a 458 WinMag can contain before it's becoming compressed?

I was trying to look up various specs for factory loadings from Hornady, Federal, Barnes etc and was not able to find that information.
 
IMG_5934.jpeg

This one went through about 10 ft of elephant. Rooter to tooter. 450g CEB. 458 Lott
 
That's impressive penetration. What velocity? Here's a .416 400gr CPS that broke both shoulders on the big bull ele in Oct...Rigby velocities...2350-2400.
IMG_6950.JPG
 
What load data do you have for this?

I’m shooting a 500 grain at 2300 Fps.

HH
Safari Arms in NY loaded these for me. Published velocity was 2350 IIRC. Never checked against chrony. I don’t know powder or charge.
 
While I did hunt elephant with the 458 and 450gr bullets last year, I never got a shot at a tuskless cow. I did kill a buffalo with that rifle and 420 gr Raptor bullets. I put in an insurance shot with a 450gr solid and it whistled right through with no problem. In 2022 I shot a tuskless cow elephant with a 375 H&H, and 300gr CEB solids. The brain shot was on a slight angle and the bullet completely penetrated the skull and exited out the neck. The 450 gr 458 bullet would do the same, just with a bigger hole left behind.
 
Someone stated that shooting elephant brain shots that just any solid would do!

That is a statement made from ignorance, and is simply NOT TRUE.

Fact of the matter is, All Solids Are Not Created Equal.

The Factors of Terminal Solid Penetration is a multi year study, with 1000s on top of 1000s of rounds fired, every common available solid ever made tested, and hundreds of designs never put to market. Several Generations of design changes made in the current CEB Safari Solids, and The North Fork solids you see today. Solids are not to be treated as a Red Headed Stepchild, brushed to the side as not all that important, because that is an ignorant statement, in fact, the Properly Designed Solid may save lives, dollars, and your conscience as an end result of doing the very best you can and choosing the best you can.

Over the last two decades I have not only heard, read and been told of catastrophic failures of certain designs of so called solids and FMJ, but have witnessed it first hand.

When a Solid/FMJ begins terminal penetration, it becomes "Front End Drive", the nose and nose profile drive the bullet. Flat Nose Solids drive straighter than Round Nose, Fact. But not all Flat Nose Solids are created equal either. Meplat Size is of the most important, you have to have 65% meplat of caliber for terminal stability........... Less than 65% is not stable during penetration and can, and will veer off course at some point during terminals. Fact. There is no steering mechanism with Round Nose, in test work in aqueous medium, Round Nose will veer off course 100% of the time, every time. Fact. In the field, of course Round Nose solids have been used since the days dinosaur roamed the earth, and yes it has taken many a elephant, simply because that is ALL THERE WAS to choose from. In many cases a Round Nose has enough total penetration to get the job done, no question, but also with no steering mechanism it is prone to variances in the Medium, tissue/bone. There have been many recorded instances of Round Nose going off course, before getting to the brain cavity of an elephant. This resulted many times of lost animals, dangerous situations, and left hunters wondering WTF?

Other failures occurred with Construction and Material........... less than desirable meplat size..... and other poor design factors.

A Solid has Two Jobs or Duties to perform, Drive Deep & Drive Straight. You must have this to accomplish your mission, and to make sure you are successful. If you have enough money to go elephant hunting, then you damn well better spend a little of that on a proper bullet design, or you very well may watch your hard earned dollars run off........... Or worse.

Of course it is your choice, you can be nonchalant, apathetic and consider "Any Solid will do", or if you are a real shooter/hunter, you can put enough time in to learn what is required, needed, and spend that extra few dollars to choose wisely, and enhance your chances of success by not introducing possible failures, but addressing possible failures before hand. Its up to you, I know for a fact what I would do, and have done.
 
Could a 450 grain solid or Swift A-frame out of a .458 Win Mag be a Goldilocks loading that hits 2200-2300 fps without load compression, and still provide everything needed for Elephants?

IE could one safely let go of the 500 grain .470 Nitro Express paradigm, given the advances in bullet construction? Seems like dropping the bullet weight 10%, adding a little powder space and velocity while lowering the overall recoil could be a sweet spot for the .458 WM?

Submitted for discussion given the massive experience on this forum. Thanks!
If you want more velocity use a 458 Lott.....with 500gr bullet to keep the sd....
 
"If you want more velocity use a 458 Lott.....with 500gr bullet to keep the sd...."
SD was more important with poorly constructed round nose bullets ..
Properly constructed Solids like CEB and Northfork is not a deciding factor
 
baxterb,
That would be the bullet that Richard Harland commented on as successful for elephant hunters at 2300 fps MV.
That is routine in a .458 WinMag SAAMI-satisfying handload.

Game rangers doing control work:
Richard Harland killed 2 or 3 thousand elephants with his .458 WinMag FN Mauser.
Ron Thomson killed 5 or 6 thousand also with his .458 WinMag FN Mauser and he did it,
amazingly, with factory 500-gr RN FMJ "solid" bullets.
He never had his bullets bounce off any elephant.
Lucky enough not to get any sabotaged factory loads ?
He never let them age very long before use either.

The handloaded .458 WinMag with 450-gr brass FN solid at 2300 fps MV is a much better killer.
A 500-gr RN solid of any sort is more likely to veer off course, fishtail, tumble, just no comparison to a brass FN.
A shorter bullet length is also inherently more stable.
Sectional density is important, but it is not everything.
The 450-gr/.458 has plenty SD.
Richards 458 often failed on eleohant.....Tsuro was always there with a 450 Rigby to back him up..
He used a 458 as it was all that was available from the department....
He is a professional who knows where to shoot elephant as aposed to a once off visiting client....

His personal elephant rifle and the one he prefered using to guide clients is a 505 Gibbs.....with 600gr monolithic solids....not a 458 wm....
 

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