Woodleigh Bullets

[Dr Ray]

Long time fan of Woodleigh here. I've used the Weldcore version in many cals on almost everything in Australia and a good bag of Namibian plains game. They work best when driven at moderate velocities or when used on the heavy for calibre side. There's no point trying to wring extra velocity out of them. The RN version will open slightly faster then the PP version and the latter feed better from many magazines. I've found them super reliable with deep penetration (mostly exits on medium game) good expansion and 90% plus weight retention as the norm. I can't argue with that.The Hydros however I have little experience with.

I use/d

6.5x55 140gn PP
7x57 & 7 RM 140 & 160gn PP
.30/06 150 & 180gn PP
.350 Rem Mag 225 & 250gn PP
.375 H&H 270gn PP & RN
.458 Win Mag 480gn RN

@Dr Ray one thing I will add though, from your earlier post. Regardless of the bullet used, I wouldn't go to the NT expecting your buffalo to fall over after one shot. Even if the first shot is perfect and ultimately fatal, they'll often take a while to go down and multiple quick follow-ups are the norm. As they say, bullets are cheap and there's no point dying wondering

Cheers
Tim

I understand that usually multiple shots are required. Where on the buff should I place the first shot.

 

[BenKK]

My main concern with the Hydro's(and any other solid for that matter) when used on Cape buffalo is they work too well and over penetration is a big problem. This is when hunting herds and not individual animals.

I have on more than one occasion had instances where a second buffalo(on one occasion two additional! buffalo) have been wounded when clients used solids for back-up, after being advised not to do so! You now have the situation where you have to deal with two and in some cases three wounded buffalo!

Very dangerous and costly indeed.

We were hunting in Matetsi, my client had completed his wish list and he had gotten what he wanted in his buffalo. He was after the oldest, meanest looking worn buffalo I could find. He was a great client and was only interested in the experience of the hunt and finding the oldest buff with no regard for measurements or record books. This we had done by finding a lone bull, with well worn down horns, half a tail and old lion scars that had healed. He was in some bad terrain when we found him and had a temper to match his age which was estimated at about 12 years. We got a charge from 25 yards and luckily my client had listened to my advise beforehand and made a excellent shot with his 375 H&H using TBBC bullets, hitting the neck vertebrae just below the raised nose. The bulls momentum kept him coming forward but his head dropped and my shot entered the neck between his bosses and shoulders again shattering the vertebrae. We had a hell of a time setting up this old war horse for pictures with a completely shattered neck.

The "Leader" of this group of hunters was hunting with another PH and had turned down various excellent bulls making for a frustrating hunt for the poor PH. He had asked me regarding bullet choice around the bar (more in a manner to start an argument than to really want to have my opinion) and I had advised him to use only softs as we were mainly hunting big herds and that the lone bull we had found was the exception to the rule in this area. He insisted that he had it on good authority that he was only to use solids for backup. He was quite confrontational and not wanting to get into an argument which always has the effect of changing the dynamics in camp, especially with him being the main man and having a large group in camp. I just mentioned that he could use what he liked but that he would be responsible to pay for any other buffalo wounded or shot as a result.

The other PH asked me and my client(as we had finished hunting) if we would mind notifying them if we spotted any good buffalo as we where basically killing time by site seeing in the concession the next day. No problem.

Next morning we found a large herd grazing towards a small river which although flanked by schrub Mopani, had some short grass along the banks. We called them on the radio and when they arrived pointed out the herd that was still a long way off.

Long story short I was asked to accompany them on the stalk. We selected a great bull on the fringe of the herd. The initial shot at 35 yards was good, a touch high, over the hart but through both lungs. This is when things started going wrong. This was a big herd of about 250 buffalo. At the shot they all thundered off in a cloud of dust, the client reloaded and threw the rifle back to his shoulder, I shouted "Wait, don't shoot!" to no avail as he let fly! The bullet hit the rear of the bull that was quartering away on the edge of the herd entered and exited both buttocks going on to hit an old cow in her left hip. She took evasive action cutting to the right of the herd into the scrub Mopani!

The client took off running after the herd and kept banging away, despite our warning shouts to STOP and watch for the cow! The clients PH fearing for his clients life had no option but to follow him. The Zim scout and trackers new full well that this was now a dangerous situation and no tracking required with the chaos going on wisely stayed back.This all took place within seconds. I followed my PH friend shouting to watch for the cow that had been wounded.

When he got opposite the spot where the cow had entered the shrub Mopani, she came charging out straight at him. He was running at the time trying to keep up with the client and had no time to swing to his right and take a shot, so took evasive action to his left. I was close behind him but had luckily anticipated the actions of the wounded cow and luckily the clients solid bullet had hit the left hip not causing much damage but this had slowed her a touch. She was so close I did not need to lead my shot to compensate and aimed at the junction of her neck where it meets the shoulder, as she was charging from my right to left and the 570 gr Rhino controlled expansion bullet from my 500 Jeff dropped her in her tracks as it smashed the neck vertebrae at a mere 7 yards!

When we reached the client and the now down but not dead bull, he was shouting for more bullets! We killed the bull and the first thing he said was "who was shooting behind me!" Without saying a word we went back to the cow with the client. The rest of the crew had now arrived and where not happy. The client looked a bit puzzled and started looking around foolishly. I pointed to the 375 H&H bullet hole on the cows hip and said you where using solids for back-up and I asked him what he would like the skinners to do with his cow-a full mount or a shoulder mount? Not waiting for a reply I turned around and walked off to have a cigarette in the shade of a Mopani as the adrenaline started wearing off and hoping that his actions would sink in and he would realise how close we had come to tragedy because of his foolish actions.

I don't want to bore you with this account, but the moral of the story is had the client listened and used soft nose bullets for back-up we would not have ended in a life threatening situation, that fortunately for us ended up positively bar for the client who had to pay for the cow.

Hunting water buffalo in terrain that is more open may be a different scenario completely and Hydro's or solids may be ideal, I cannot comment on that as I have never had the privilege to hunt them.

For hunting Cape Buffalo in Africa I still feel that the use of good quality expanding bullets in an appropriate caliber, for the initial shot, is the best option for a client to use. If you decide to use Hydro's or solids for back-up, please make very sure what is going on behind what you are shooting at! This is much more difficult to do once the first shot has been taken and in the excitement, adrenaline rush and action that takes place shortly after the first shot is sometimes impossible for a client to do.

I prefer a client to only use premium expanding bullets when hunting Cape Buffalo. Spend more time making the first shot count and less time worrying about back-up or second and third shots and you will be just fine.

The main factor to a successful and safe Cape buffalo hunt, is the placement of that first shot.

I look forward to the results of this thread and I hope I have not bored you with my opinion but it is one I feel strongly about when it comes to Cape Buffalo hunting.

I agree. Most of my buffalo have fallen to Woodleigh softs.

However, in Australia it is very rare to have to pick-out a bull from a densely-packed mob. Our old buffalo bulls are, in most instances, by themselves. Or at least they’re easily discernible from the others nearby, and usually with a clear background. We simply don’t usually have the dense herds you guys do - even though I have enjoyed viewing over a thousand in one day, they’re more spread-out.

 

[BenKK]

I understand that usually multiple shots are required. Where on the buff should I place the first shot.

If side-on, straight up the middle of the front leg, about a quarter to a third of the way up into the chest. Don’t try to shoot behind the front leg on a side-on shot. Most unsuspecting nganabbarru will give you side-on presentation as they drift around feeding. But if they cotton-on to you, you’ll get frontal presentation, head held high. Some folks don’t like this shot, but it works well for me, with many scores killed neatly this way including those with smaller cartridges - but this is a shot to be careful of with smaller expanding bullets, because if you misjudge it the bullet will be attempting an impossible task, getting through fifteen inches of solid skin.

 

[IvW]

Shot position on Cape Buffalo if I may.

This may not apply to water buffalo to the same extent as Cape Buffalo.

I will use pictures from Africahunting for illustration purposes as I am sure there will be no objections.

First off the full frontal shot is not advised when using a 375 H&H with 300 gr bullets. .400 caliber and larger are a better option unless the hunter is a very competent shot and is using 350-380 gr bullets in the 375 H&H. And this is not his first attempt at such a shot.

The front of a buffalo has very thick loose skin that absorbs a large amount of energy and greatly affects the performance of the bullet. If the shot does not hit exactly centre and hits the heart or just above the heart you will have problems. Pulled to the left or right the bullet will either just clip one of the lungs or worse still pass between the leg and the ribcage(missing the chest cavity completely) resulting in a wounded and now p...off buffalo that will take some serious stopping when eventually found.

Scapula shot as you mention is not a good idea on Cape Buffalo.

The scapula is positioned too high and a shot placed there or slightly higher will drop the buffalo as if lightning struck. However this is however only as a result of bullet shock that passes close to the spine. These are the "dead" ones that get up and kill you.

For some reason I have found that a double lung high heart shot will kill a Buffalo faster than a low heart shot.

The safest shot for a client to take who will be nervous and have adrenaline in his veins when taking aim at his first buffalo would be to aim on the front leg(vertical reticle of the scope) and halfway up the body(horizontal reticle). This shot allows for the largest margin of error.

Placed too high will still get both lungs, placed low will still hit the heart, pulled to the back will still get both lungs and pulled forward will either still clip the lungs or break one or both shoulder bones, or high and forward the neck vertebrae.

This is the safest shot for the first time buffalo hunter.

After gaining experience and confidence more time can be taken to execute the "perfect shot" but this one mentioned is by far the safest.

Never ever take a initial quartering away shot on a Cape Buffalo presented on the left side of a buffalo.

As for back-up shots, as long as you can see the buffalo you shot at and you can confidently hit him, keep shooting until he goes down. Do not approach to admire the horns until you are sure he is dead.

All the best.

 

[Timbo]

In the next day or so I will be posting an article on the penetration rates & other data. I emailed Woodleigh & I was totally surprised to actually get a very quick response. I have also spoken with Geoff McDonald from Woodleigh & he is going to provide me with photos etc.
If you wish to contribute now with data I and I suspect other members & readers would be grateful.
The reason I'm so interested is that I have had some very good & very bad results from using the right or wrong bullet.

I don't want to have problems when I go hunting Oz buffalo in June & I really hate having to shoot an animal more than once. Here's a copy of the email from Woodleigh.

Hi Dr Ray,

We have shot a considerable number of game with the hydro solids during field testing, and it is continuing of course.

Initially water buffalo with 375 H&H x 300 gr , also 416 Rem x 400 gr, 450 Ackley x 480 gr, 5oo Nitro x 570 gr, 338 Win and 338/06 x 225 gr.

The 375 cal and above delivered full body penetration, length wise on mature bulls. We have also shot 7 or more elephant bulls. Side brain shots exited, one frontal brain shot and we dissected the head. The brain box had a 2” exit hole, the bullet was found in the pelvic area. We also performed penetration shots on some of the elephants on the ground, 500 N delivered 6’ of penetration, even when bone was struck. Soft tissue damage was considerable. We have shot giraffe, camel, wild cattle, donkeys, pigs, and deer.

The performance on soft skinned animals is similar to soft nose bullets, but with a much longer wound channel. We also deliberately shot deer and donkeys through scrub to test for deflection and the bullets went right on through and did the job. The most important consideration when shooting animals in a herd, is hitting another animal behind the intended victim. You should have excellent results with the Federal Hydro loads, provided the shot is aimed at the vitals. This is critical with all bullets of course.

We are always interested in feed back.

Regards,

Geoff McDonald

Woodleigh Bullets

PS Geoff advised me that the hydros do NOT have an upper limit in velocity – a very important point and I understand Woodleigh is holding discussions next week with Federal.

So members and readers here’s your invitation to provide feedback to Woodleigh.

I've always used Woodleigh 500gr RNSN and FMJs with very good effect in my 458WM, and 180gr PSPs in my .30/06.

But on the use of hydrostatics I've no experience, though the dealer who reloads for the WA Government veterinarian told me - when faced with the last resort - they use hydros to humanely dispatch beached whales. I'm pretty sure they use a .375HH or a .300 Win Mag.

Also there's an online government research paper (See link below) where they shot fresh whale cadavers through the head, using using .300 Win Mag, .300WSM and .308 Winchester. In short, the results of the Woodleigh 180gr hydrostatics used in each calibre is BLOODY IMPRESSIVE!!! (See the tables contained within the report!).

This is a very good, official, indictment of the Woodleigh .30-cal 180gr hydrostatics.

Cheers!

Ref: http://www.academia.edu/19200086/Va...f_firearms_for_euthanising_stranded_cetaceans

 

[Timbo]

What an excellent post. Thank you very much for this and I’m sure other members will greatly appreciate the detailed information. I know I do.

I second Dr Ray's comments! Very good info, indeed, to remember!

 

[Pheroze]

I've always used Woodleigh 500gr RNSN and FMJs with very good effect in my 458WM, and 180gr PSPs in my .30/06.

But on the use of hydrostatics I've no experience, though the dealer who reloads for the WA Government veterinarian told me - when faced with the last resort - they use hydros to humanely dispatch beached whales. I'm pretty sure they use a .375HH or a .300 Win Mag.

Also there's an online government research paper (See link below) where they shot fresh whale cadavers through the head, using using .300 Win Mag, .300WSM and .308 Winchester. In short, the results of the Woodleigh 180gr hydrostatics used in each calibre is BLOODY IMPRESSIVE!!! (See the tables contained within the report!).

This is a very good, official, indictment of the Woodleigh .30-cal 180gr hydrostatics.

Cheers!

Ref: http://www.academia.edu/19200086/Va...f_firearms_for_euthanising_stranded_cetaceans

@CAustin I think if they will brain a whale they should be good for hippo!

 

[Timbo]

If you want, you can download the entire report as I just did! I typed in my name and email address as requested - using a BS password (as I'm not a member of their site) - and "Hey Presto!" I got the report!!

 

[Pheroze]

If you want, you can download the entire report as I just did! I typed in my name and email address as requested - using a BS password (as I'm not a member of their site) - and "Hey Presto!" I got the report!!

It's a cool report, thanks for posting

 

[Red Leg]

I have used Hydros in their 9.3 guise to take two black bear, and during my most recent Safari in Mozambique, used them in 300 gr .375 to take PG ranging from Suni to Waterbuck. On that same trip, I used A-Frames to take buffalo and eland. I did not use them for the buff and eland because of the possibility of having to drop an animal in a herd. (Technically, I had no recourse but to use the A-Frame on the buff due to lost luggage, but had packed 30 Hydros and 10 A-Frames in the event, using one of the latter on the eland).

Every Hydro shot at game, regardless of angle, went through both lungs and exited, and no follow-up shots were required.

Some general thoughts and observations.

They are supremely accurate. In both my Sako 9.3 and R8 they shoot sub-MOA groups.

In many respects, the Hydro should be considered an experienced hunter's bullet. It causes more damage than a traditional solid, but considerably less than a quality SP. It has more in common with a solid than a SP. This could matter with poor placement.

Likewise, the shooter must be completely aware of the target’s surroundings - a basic rule of shooting, but sometimes difficult when staring at one’s first buff. These bullets will always exit. Thus, a herd shot will always be problematic. This means a client may not be able to take the one shot he is offered on today’s ever shorter buffalo hunts.

Admitting that dead is dead, and that my personal sample size is relatively small, the Hydro seems to take noticeably longer to kill a lung shot animal than a standard SP. That shouldn’t be surprising as it is in fact a solid. Just understand that follow-ups will be a bit longer or the hunter will be standing by longer waiting an animal to expire.

After mulling this over since my return, for me at least, I am going to think of the Hydro as a specialized bullet. Rather than an all purpose bullet, I see it as a solid which can be used to take other game if necessary more effectively than a traditional solid. For instance, on an elephant hunt, assuming one were using a scoped .375 or .416, one could take the odd PG trophy that pops up without having to worry about another rifle or changing loads and potentially scope settings.

I’ll be back in Africa this coming summer with either my .375 or .404 to hunt buffalo and a couple of head of PG. I have enormous respect for the new Woodleigh product, but either of these rifles will be loaded with the TSX or A-Frame.

 

[Dr Ray]

Long time fan of Woodleigh here. I've used the Weldcore version in many cals on almost everything in Australia and a good bag of Namibian plains game. They work best when driven at moderate velocities or when used on the heavy for calibre side. There's no point trying to wring extra velocity out of them. The RN version will open slightly faster then the PP version and the latter feed better from many magazines. I've found them super reliable with deep penetration (mostly exits on medium game) good expansion and 90% plus weight retention as the norm. I can't argue with that.The Hydros however I have little experience with.

I use/d

6.5x55 140gn PP
7x57 & 7 RM 140 & 160gn PP
.30/06 150 & 180gn PP
.350 Rem Mag 225 & 250gn PP
.375 H&H 270gn PP & RN
.458 Win Mag 480gn RN

@Dr Ray one thing I will add though, from your earlier post. Regardless of the bullet used, I wouldn't go to the NT expecting your buffalo to fall over after one shot. Even if the first shot is perfect and ultimately fatal, they'll often take a while to go down and multiple quick follow-ups are the norm. As they say, bullets are cheap and there's no point dying wondering

Cheers
Tim

I understand that so I am heeding your advice week & truly. Thank you for your expert opinion as I really appreciate such.

 

[William W.]

I used the Woodleigh Weldcore PP-SN on a bison with a 375 H&H and unfortunately took the guide’s recommendation to shoot behind the front leg rather than the shoulder for the heart shot per the Perfect Shot book. Bullet fully penetrated with a lung shot, and the animal sauntered away. Took two more rear quartering shots (avoiding the gut) because I wanted edible meat. One hit the heart. I now have the confidence that the Woodleigh softs can easily break a heavy shoulder for the heart shot next time. The meat is superb!

 

[Tim Blackwell]

I understand that usually multiple shots are required. Where on the buff should I place the first shot.

If side-on, straight up the middle of the front leg, about a quarter to a third of the way up into the chest. Don’t try to shoot behind the front leg on a side-on shot. Most unsuspecting nganabbarru will give you side-on presentation as they drift around feeding. But if they cotton-on to you, you’ll get frontal presentation, head held high. Some folks don’t like this shot, but it works well for me, with many scores killed neatly this way including those with smaller cartridges - but this is a shot to be careful of with smaller expanding bullets, because if you misjudge it the bullet will be attempting an impossible task, getting through fifteen inches of solid skin.

@Dr Ray I'll second what BenKK said above in my opinion for shot placement. He lives amongst the buffalo and is very experienced with them. Here is the experience with my bull taken in 2010.

We crawled into under 30m on this lone old bull browsing on a tree. I slowly took a kneeling rest off a small sapling and waited a fair while in very hot conditions for him to step forward into the clear. The whole time I was focussed on making my first shot perfect which is undoubtedly the most important element. Exactly as Ben described...."In line with the front leg, 1/4 to 1/3 of the way up'. This will break the shoulders, and destroy the heart and lungs, plus it has a large margin for error.

Here is the spot we were in...

He finally took a few steps forwards and I made the first shot perfect... Mk. X Mauser .458 Win Mag, 480gn Woodleigh RN. At the shot he just spun 180 degress to see what stung him, I had already reloaded and hit him again from the other side, a tad far back and higher but still hitting the lungs. With that he turned 180 again and ran off, I hit him a third time in the spine and that dropped him. We waited a minute for the dust to settle and then by the time I covered the few metres to where he lay, he was stone dead. A 105 inch bull.

You can see the first and third shots here. The second shot from the other side you can see in the trophy photo. As I mentioned, it was the first bullet that killed him but they don't go down easily and I wasn't about to stand around and admire my handiwork This first shot is where I reccommend hitting them.

Cheers
Tim

 

[Dr Ray]

@Dr Ray I'll second what BenKK said above in my opinion for shot placement. He lives amongst the buffalo and is very experienced with them. Here is the experience with my bull taken in 2010.

We crawled into under 30m on this lone old bull browsing on a tree. I slowly took a kneeling rest off a small sapling and waited a fair while in very hot conditions for him to step forward into the clear. The whole time I was focussed on making my first shot perfect which is undoubtedly the most important element. Exactly as Ben described...."In line with the front leg, 1/4 to 1/3 of the way up'. This will break the shoulders, and destroy the heart and lungs, plus it has a large margin for error.

Here is the spot we were in...

He finally took a few steps forwards and I made the first shot perfect... Mk. X Mauser .458 Win Mag, 480gn Woodleigh RN. At the shot he just spun 180 degress to see what stung him, I had already reloaded and hit him again from the other side, a tad far back and higher but still hitting the lungs. With that he turned 180 again and ran off, I hit him a third time in the spine and that dropped him. We waited a minute for the dust to settle and then by the time I covered the few metres to where he lay, he was stone dead. A 105 inch bull.

You can see the first and third shots here. The second shot from the other side you can see in the trophy photo. As I mentioned, it was the first bullet that killed him but they don't go down easily and I wasn't about to stand around and admire my handiwork This first shot is where I reccommend hitting them.

Cheers
Tim

That’s great advice. Thank you.

 

[Tim Blackwell]

That’s great advice. Thank you.

You're welcome Ray. Best of luck mate.

 

[Rule 303]

I have not hunted Aust Water Buff but know Blacks and Ben have. Ben has probably lost count of how many he has shot.

I shot my one and only Cape Buff with a Hygro fro a 416 Rigby. I put the hydro as first round as we were in amongset vines and small trees, 1 to 2" thick. I figured if I had to shot I did not want the bullet to deflect and still do the job. Ended up with a shot in the open after a run. Blowing to hard to hit the brain as the Buff faced us so took the top of his heart. Hydro recovered near the skin of his rump after traveling length wise through him including rear leg bone.

As said they are somewhere between a soft and a solid in effect.

Jeff MacDonald at Woodleigh field test all his bullets before they are released.

 

[BenKK]

Hey, Tim! Such an immense bull you shot! Absolutely awesome!

Greg, I have lost count but am trying to log numbers per cartridge type per year, these days.

 

[Rule 303]

Hey, Tim! Such an immense bull you shot! Absolutely awesome!

Greg, I have lost count but am trying to log numbers per cartridge type per year, these days.

Ben, I hope you know your maths as just using your fingers and toes to count won't cut the mustard.

 

[Velo Dog]

Quote from Woodleigh:
"We also deliberately shot deer and donkeys through scrub to test for deflection and the bullets went right on through and did the job."

Ladies & Gents,

I have every confidence that the Woodleigh Hydro is a fantastic solid.
All of their various designs have well deserved awesome reputations.

But, if it is the first bullet in the history of firearms that, generally does not change course, as it nicks and clicks through thorns and sticks, now that is a bullet indeed.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Red Leg]

Quote from Woodleigh:
"We also deliberately shot deer and donkeys through scrub to test for deflection and the bullets went right on through and did the job."

Ladies & Gents,

I have every confidence that the Woodleigh Hydro is a fantastic solid.
All of their various designs have well deserved awesome reputations.

But, if it is the first bullet in the history of firearms that, generally does not change course, as it nicks and clicks through thorns and sticks, now that is a bullet indeed.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

It's a very good concept and bullet, but had not realized fully it had the properties of a laser. Who knew?! Could have dispensed with all that crawling around for a clear shot.