With the trophy ban heading into place in UK..now they are starting in the USA

Why make posts about varminting and bird hunting? You could have considered the fact that I've been shooting since then... Pulling at straws. Baseless opinion sprinkled with disrespect and pettiness. You do it to nearly everyone on here for no reason.

It's not really propaganda if it's based on truth, no? I still don't see China calling for import bans, just your country along with the UK. The truth can hurt.
No I do it to you, because you have no experience and no knowledge because you don’t hunt. I often think you are the EFF’s one white guy with your posts. Prove me wrong on your hunting experience.
 
@Red Leg , South Africa's hunting industry, in particular, is much bigger than people make out. I've said this before, nearly every South African male has had some experience with hunting either directly or through someone else. It will eventually become part of the collective psyche. Regardless of whether or not foreigners stop coming here, our industry will go on because we enjoy hunting ourselves. The same thing with Botswana. Everyone went on about how hunting was "banned" completely ignoring the fact that ranch hunting was just fine and continued as it had for decades. Yes, the prestige was temporarily gone but the actual hunting wasn't.

I'm not "ignoring" the issues facing hunting, I'm very aware of them. I'm saying it's better to base your opinions on reality instead of immediately doom and gloom. You can be aware of the anti-pressure but still have a level-headed approach to the issue. Your comments on the "white-dominated industry" are utterly false perpetuated by propaganda. The average black African couldn't give a rat's ass about whether a whitey is interested in a particular industry or not. Especially in the case of Botswana whose black citizens didn't have to struggle through Apartheid.

Don't base your opinions on social media vitriol. It's just doing what it's intended for, spreading sensation either through fear or any other possible method.
With respect to "every South African male," I assume you are referring to white South African males. The teaming masses in the townships have no appreciation, economic or cultural, for hunting. And regrettably, in the North America and Europe the social justice warriors are gaining ground every day. Those growing minorities abetted by the uninformed majorities will gravitate to the more radical political movements in southern Africa - not the traditional ones that reflect the cultural identity of a tiny white majority.

Your second paragraph is pretty much what I was saying. The British economy is not invested sufficiently in Southern Africa's hunting industry to care what the effect might be - whether they help destroy it or the African states do it themselves.

If foreign hunters quit coming, your industry as you know it will die. And if those hunters can't bring home trophies, most won't come. I think that is a fundamental truth. That is a different subject with respect to whether or not a South African may still have a place to hunt - for a while.

I simply feel it is the height of foolishness to ignore or minimize these threats. It is particularly foolish not to keep ourselves informed.
 
No I do it to you, because you have no experience and no knowledge because you don’t hunt. I often think you are the EFF’s one white guy with your posts. Prove me wrong on your hunting experience.
I don't have to prove you shit. You're not a big deal and neither am I. Your BS "eXpErIeNcE" argument is regurgitated over and over when no one really cares, it's just you. This reminds me of when you were up @gizmo 's ass because he said something about fenced hunting which you didn't agree with. A long pointless argument ensued because you apparently read with tunnel vision.

"EFF's one white guy" probably one of the most bare-bones, doesn't know shit, stereotype of South African politics I've heard in a while. Well done.
 
With respect to "every South African male," I assume you are referring to white South African males. The teaming masses in the townships have no appreciation, economic or cultural, for hunting.
No, I was referring to MOST South African males, not just the whites. Most townships are on the edge of agricultural land and the teenagers like to hunt guineafowl with dogs. I know because I've actually been there and seen it. Viewing our country with your view of the states isn't accurate, though understandable. These radical parties you're referring to have very little influence here with maybe the exception of the EFF, and that's being generous. But, if any of the radical parties did miraculously gain control we can simply look to SA's neighbours as an example. Zimbabwe overthrew Rhodesia via a radical political party and hunting still continued. Again, you shouldn't base your opinions on culture here via what may happen in the States in certain areas.

"If foreign hunters quit coming, your industry as you know it will die. And if those hunters can't bring home trophies, most won't come. I think that is a fundamental truth. That is a different subject with respect to whether or not a South African may still have a place to hunt - for a while."-

Not true. South Africa had hunting for most of its history including the Apartheid era, and that's considering the fact that no one wanted to go there just due to our reputation. Yes, our industry would suffer tremendously but it wouldn't solely be dependent on foreign tourism. I highly respect your opinion, but it's not realistic.

Regarding your last paragraph, I agree with you 100%. My point is that we shouldn't sensationalize what may be happening, or may potentially happen in this case, because it doesn't help anyone in the long run. We can be aware of the threats facing hunting whilst still being level-headed. Extremes tend to be detrimental in the long run, though they are the natural human reaction.
 
No, I was referring to MOST South African males, not just the whites. Most townships are on the edge of agricultural land and the teenagers like to hunt guineafowl with dogs. I know because I've actually been there and seen it. Viewing our country with your view of the states isn't accurate, though understandable. These radical parties you're referring to have very little influence here with maybe the exception of the EFF, and that's being generous. But, if any of the radical parties did miraculously gain control we can simply look to SA's neighbours as an example. Zimbabwe overthrew Rhodesia via a radical political party and hunting still continued. Again, you shouldn't base your opinions on culture here via what may happen in the States in certain areas.

"If foreign hunters quit coming, your industry as you know it will die. And if those hunters can't bring home trophies, most won't come. I think that is a fundamental truth. That is a different subject with respect to whether or not a South African may still have a place to hunt - for a while."-

Not true. South Africa had hunting for most of its history including the Apartheid era, and that's considering the fact that no one wanted to go there just due to our reputation. Yes, our industry would suffer tremendously but it wouldn't solely be dependent on foreign tourism. I highly respect your opinion, but it's not realistic.

Regarding your last paragraph, I agree with you 100%. My point is that we shouldn't sensationalize what may be happening, or may potentially happen in this case, because it doesn't help anyone in the long run. We can be aware of the threats facing hunting whilst still being level-headed. Extremes tend to be detrimental in the long run, though they are the natural human reaction.
It seems to me that the sensationalizing and extremes are already here…brought by the other side. You’re correct in that that can’t affect your ability to hunt there, but they surely will affect your economy if they get a ban passed on importing from there.
I think most on this site are well aware of the hype that goes with these articles and “news” blips so even though the flag is thrown up, those here are very realistic about the potential outcome. I don’t think throwing out ideas, possible timeframes and such is reactionary “sky is falling” terror. I think can be, and usually is, good food for thought and a reminder to us all to stay aware and active in fighting it.
 
I think you are absolutely wrong with respect to disseminating this information.

First of all, the hunting industry isn't large enough to result in the "destruction" of the UK's relations with Southern Africa - any more than Kenya's or Botswana's bans did from the UK's point of view. In fact, you have large numbers of your fellow citizens who would be more than happy to see that white dominated industry sent packing.

But more importantly, this whole "nothing has happened yet" attitude is what allows the ever increasing pace of destruction of the hunting and shooting sports. The time to act, through the courts, politically, organizationally, and internationally is when these proposals are in their infancy. Once they are filed and gain popular momentum, it is impossible to reverse their course. Forums like this are a means of communications to spread the word about these latest efforts. Pro-hunting voices who try to nullify that sharing of information - who advise, let's keep our heads down and it will go away - become part of the problem.

We were a long time learning that here in the States. Now SCI has a pretty effective legal team that addresses such legislative attacks on hunting or access to Federal lands the moment they begin to gain traction in Washington or a state legislature. Up until a couple of years ago, when the NRA became mired in its own internal legal issues, it too was an effective lobbying voice.

Be quiet and it will go away is exactly the wrong strategy.
I could not agree more…. The ostrich mentality will not work here. This is no time to stick our heads in the sand….

luckily there are massive strides and movements coming into motion. A great start is the African community conservation forum, the kids in conservation forum and several others rising up.

this will go to the world court and it will be discussed a CITES. A wise African lady looked at me 3 years ago and said “ how do westerners place animal rights above human rights, Africa was colonized the colonies handed over but now our wild life is being colonized…, we will not stand for this.”

I agree the time for ahhh this will never happen comments and ignorance is over.

my best always
J
 
No, I was referring to MOST South African males, not just the whites. Most townships are on the edge of agricultural land and the teenagers like to hunt guineafowl with dogs. I know because I've actually been there and seen it. Viewing our country with your view of the states isn't accurate, though understandable. These radical parties you're referring to have very little influence here with maybe the exception of the EFF, and that's being generous. But, if any of the radical parties did miraculously gain control we can simply look to SA's neighbours as an example. Zimbabwe overthrew Rhodesia via a radical political party and hunting still continued. Again, you shouldn't base your opinions on culture here via what may happen in the States in certain areas.

"If foreign hunters quit coming, your industry as you know it will die. And if those hunters can't bring home trophies, most won't come. I think that is a fundamental truth. That is a different subject with respect to whether or not a South African may still have a place to hunt - for a while."-

Not true. South Africa had hunting for most of its history including the Apartheid era, and that's considering the fact that no one wanted to go there just due to our reputation. Yes, our industry would suffer tremendously but it wouldn't solely be dependent on foreign tourism. I highly respect your opinion, but it's not realistic.

Regarding your last paragraph, I agree with you 100%. My point is that we shouldn't sensationalize what may be happening, or may potentially happen in this case, because it doesn't help anyone in the long run. We can be aware of the threats facing hunting whilst still being level-headed. Extremes tend to be detrimental in the long run, though they are the natural human reaction.
Serious question - where are you going to hunt if the international hunting industry is destroyed? The vast majority of South Africans I see hunting are utilizing game farms (typically a meat hunt for management animals) that exist because of American and European hunter dollars. Who will maintain those otherwise expensive game animals? Where are the vast tracts of wilderness land teaming with wildlife that a South African might hunt without international investment. That culture shrank dramatically in South Africa not long after World War I and was only revitalized by the emergence of the game farm system.

And we will have to agree to disagree with respect to the inhabitants of the typical city township in South Africa.

Namibia does have a fairly robust cattle industry maintained in low fence grazing country that has good populations of native wildlife. Even there, however, one finds worrisome trends where ranches are purchased by the government (where by law they have right of first refusal), are subdivided into small farms, and are all too soon wastelands devoid of grass, cattle, and wildlife.

The key for survival of commercial hunting is first to make the industry recognized as indispensable, or a least very helpful, for the economic well being of the country. I think we see the fruits of those efforts in Zim and a lesser degree in Botswana. I think the jury is still out for too many in South Africa. Hence, I worry about efforts like trophy bans gaining traction across the EU and here in North America, and Africans not uniting to fight the issue hard enough.
 
As I have posted on other threads, in my home State, we passed an amendment to the State Constitution to make hunting a right. These Constitutional changes are more difficult to undue, especially piecemeal....which the anti's always try. It took YEARS to pass this amendment.....time to address these proposals is NOW. Spike is spot on................get fired up, address these threats now, don't be swayed by the anti's. It is always in their best interest to tell you not to worry. Be pro-active.............FWB
 
Why make posts about varminting and bird hunting? You could have considered the fact that I've been shooting since then... Pulling at straws. Baseless opinion sprinkled with disrespect and pettiness. You do it to nearly everyone on here for no reason.

It's not really propaganda if it's based on truth, no? I still don't see China calling for import bans, just your country along with the UK. The truth can hurt.

You’ve made your point, the vast majority of us disagree with you, can we move on now?
 
Serious question - where are you going to hunt if the international hunting industry is destroyed? The vast majority of South Africans I see hunting are utilizing game farms (typically a meat hunt for management animals) that exist because of American and European hunter dollars. Who will maintain those otherwise expensive game animals? Where are the vast tracts of wilderness land teaming with wildlife that a South African might hunt without international investment?
These game farms already existed before hunting tourism became popular here in the 90s. They just weren't as plentiful and the government didn't care how many animals you killed. If it didn't help build the military they weren't interested in setting standards. Just because you guys didn't see it doesn't mean it was non-existent. It was there, but highly localized and generally unwelcome to foreign tourists. Again, the hunting industry would continue in South Africa regardless of foreign pull-out, though it would lose much of its prestige. On the topic of game animals, game breeding is popular in South Africa not just because it attracts hunting but because people invest in private reserves and like the best genetics to show off. There's a genuine passion surrounding game breeding that isn't connected to hunting, though they often go hand-in-hand.

And we will have to agree to disagree with respect to the inhabitants of the typical city township in South Africa.
It's not a matter of agreeing to disagree, it's a fact and very relevant. Yes, the hunting culture in the townships may be of a different background, but it exists. FYI, when I say "townships" I mean genuine, government-approved settlements with their own jurisdiction to a degree. The squatter camps in parts of the big cities are a different matter. You may have been thinking of those.

The key for survival of commercial hunting is first to make the industry recognized as indispensible, or at least very helpful, for the economic well being of the country.
It already is. There's no debate surrounding that, at least not here.

Hence, I worry about efforts like trophy bans gaining traction across the EU and here in North America, and Africans not uniting to fight the issue hard enough.

It's only the UK pushing this on a large scale. The few restrictions surrounding trophy imports in the EU are due to observations based on CITES data, even if incorrect. They're doing it on their own terms. The European Union has explicitly stated that they recognize trophy hunting as an integral part of the conservation and upliftment of communities where the hunting takes place. I guess I could agree that we Africans are typically apathetic towards hunting but that's just due to the fact we've got a lot of shit on our plate that needs fixing. When other more major issues are dealt with there will be a push-back against import restrictions, it just takes time unfortunately.
 
97CFF077-6647-4124-957A-C752FAA811A3.jpeg
 
Spot on
As I have posted on other threads, in my home State, we passed an amendment to the State Constitution to make hunting a right. These Constitutional changes are more difficult to undue, especially piecemeal....which the anti's always try. It took YEARS to pass this amendment.....time to address these proposals is NOW. Spike is spot on................get fired up, address these threats now, don't be swayed by the anti's. It is always in their best interest to tell you not to worry. Be pro-active.............FWB
t
 
...... My question was if nothing has actually happened and we can't say for certain what the results will be then why come to bold conclusions? ........

Nothing has happened yet, so why be concerned about the consequence?


one-bullet.jpg



Give it a whirl and let us know how it turns out.
 
Nothing has happened yet, so why be concerned about the consequence?


View attachment 442570


Give it a whirl and let us know how it turns out.
Is it just me…or is anyone else bothered by the interference between the cylinder and frame on this 454?

Oh…sorry, didn’t see the heated discussion at hand. As you were.

Dozo, Kumite!
 
Is it just me…or is anyone else bothered by the interference between the cylinder and frame on this 454?

Oh…sorry, didn’t see the heated discussion at hand. As you were.

Dozo, Kumite!
Honestly I'd like to know why the discussion got heated in the first place.
 
Honestly I'd like to know why the discussion got heated in the first place.

Let's skip the reporting and go to the source. The government website.


Importing of hunting trophies banned to protect world’s threatened species

Government response to the consultation and call for evidence sets out one of the toughest bans in the world on the import of hunting trophies
From:Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs, The Rt Hon Lord Goldsmith, and The Rt Hon George Eustice MPPublished10 December 2021

s300_Untitled_design__16_.png

  • Import of hunting trophies from thousands of endangered and threatened species to be banned - including lions, rhinos, elephants, and polar bears
  • Ban on imports of hunting trophies will be one of toughest in the world and protect nearly 7,000 species
  • Key manifesto commitment as part of a wider UK drive on international conservation
Importing hunting trophies from thousands of endangered and threatened species, including lions, rhinos, elephants, and polar bears, is set to be banned, under new measures announced by Environment Secretary George Eustice today.
The new ban will apply to imports of hunting trophies from endangered and threatened animals into Great Britain, supporting long-term species conservation and protecting some of the world’s most endangered and threatened animals – including the frequently killed ‘Big Five’ (lions, leopards, rhinos, elephants and buffalos).
In the last 50 years, there has been a 60% decline in wildlife globally. This ban will be among the toughest in the world and will protect a range of species including nearly 6,000 animals that are currently threatened by international trade.
The Ban will also cover over 1,000 additional species which are considered near-threatened or worse, such as African buffalo, zebra and reindeer – going further than the Government’s initial manifesto commitment to prohibit the import of hunting trophies from endangered species.
The Government consulted on a ban in 2019 and we received over 44,000 responses which showed clear public and conservation group support for tighter restrictions with 86% supporting further action.

Environment Secretary George Eustice said:

More animal species are now threatened with extinction than ever before in human history and we are appalled at the thought of hunters bringing back trophies and placing more pressure on some of our most iconic and endangered animals.
This would be one of the toughest bans in the world, and goes beyond our manifesto commitment, meaning we will be leading the way in protecting endangered animals and helping to strengthen and support long-term conservation.

Eduardo Gonçalves, founder of the Campaign to Ban Trophy Hunting, said:

The government’s bill looks set to be the strongest ban in the world. This is the leadership that we have been calling for to save endangered species and help bring this terrible trade to an end.
Wildlife needs this ban. Endangered animals are cruelly and needlessly killed every day, and many of them are brought back to Britain as trophies.
I urge the government to bring the bill to Parliament as soon as possible, and will be asking MPs and Peers to get behind it.

Claire Bass, executive director of Humane Society International UK said:

We welcome the Government’s commitment today to a UK hunting trophy import ban that will protect thousands of species including lions, elephants and giraffe, ruthlessly targeted by trophy hunters. We also welcome that it has ruled out loopholes that would have allowed hunters to carry on shipping their sick souvenirs.
We now urge ministers to expedite the introduction of this legislation, which will make going on holiday to kill endangered animals and bring home their body parts as legally indefensible as it is socially unacceptable.

Born Free’s Head of Policy Dr Mark Jones said:

It cannot be right for British hunters to be able to pay to kill endangered wild animals overseas and ship the trophies home. While the UK is by no means the biggest destination for international hunting trophies, nevertheless UK-based hunters frequently travel overseas to kill animals for fun, including species that are threatened with extinction. The proposed ban will send a clear signal that the UK does not condone the brutal killing of threatened wild animals for this so-called ‘sport’ by UK citizens.
It is two years since the British public overwhelmingly called for an end to hunting trophy imports, so we urge the Government to introduce and implement this legislation as quickly as possible.
Biodiversity is declining at an unprecedented rate. The population of Africana savanna elephants has decreased by more than half in the last 50 years whilst the number of African lions has declined to just 20,000 in the wild in the last 20 years.
Trophy hunting can add to the range of threats that species face and have negative knock-on effects for animal populations or entire ecosystems. Banning trophy imports from these endangered and threatened animals – with no exemptions – will help reduce the threats many of these species are already facing.
The UK Government is at the forefront of international efforts to protect endangered animals and plants and following a recent £7.2m boost, is investing £46m between 2014 and 2021 through its IWTCF to directly combat the illegal wildlife trade to benefit nature, people, the economy and protect global security.
The Government’s world-leading Ivory Act will also come into force next year and will further support conservation measures by introducing a near total ban on the import export and dealing of items containing elephant ivory in the UK, regardless of their age.
Alongside today’s announcement, the measures are part of the Government’s wider plan to reverse biodiversity loss and reinforce our position as a global champion in conservation and animal welfare as set out in our Action Plan for Animal Welfare. The measures will be included in future legislation aimed at raising welfare standards and protections for animals abroad. Further details of this will be forthcoming soon.
Published 10 December 2021


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...s-banned-to-protect-worlds-threatened-species
 
No, I was referring to MOST South African males, not just the whites. Most townships are on the edge of agricultural land and the teenagers like to hunt guineafowl with dogs. I know because I've actually been there and seen it. Viewing our country with your view of the states isn't accurate, though understandable. These radical parties you're referring to have very little influence here with maybe the exception of the EFF, and that's being generous. But, if any of the radical parties did miraculously gain control we can simply look to SA's neighbours as an example. Zimbabwe overthrew Rhodesia via a radical political party and hunting still continued. Again, you shouldn't base your opinions on culture here via what may happen in the States in certain areas.

"If foreign hunters quit coming, your industry as you know it will die. And if those hunters can't bring home trophies, most won't come. I think that is a fundamental truth. That is a different subject with respect to whether or not a South African may still have a place to hunt - for a while."-

Not true. South Africa had hunting for most of its history including the Apartheid era, and that's considering the fact that no one wanted to go there just due to our reputation. Yes, our industry would suffer tremendously but it wouldn't solely be dependent on foreign tourism. I highly respect your opinion, but it's not realistic.

Regarding your last paragraph, I agree with you 100%. My point is that we shouldn't sensationalize what may be happening, or may potentially happen in this case, because it doesn't help anyone in the long run. We can be aware of the threats facing hunting whilst still being level-headed. Extremes tend to be detrimental in the long run, though they are the natural human reaction.
Hmmmm, how much money does "Teenagers with dog's hunting Guinea Fowl" bring into RSA's economy, and fund any of the thousands of game ranches that you have there?

I think that you are smoking in the shower if you think that outfitters in RSA will be "fine" without foreign hunters
 
All of my UK clients are trying to push there hunts as early as possible for 2022. They believe the bill will be pushed through by there summer.
 
The UK gun firms will be done for, and ammo also. If they can gt away with this they will next be going for banning people from going on safari or other foreign hunts from the UK also.

Can just seen how Birmingham stopped the huge match competition that were to be hold in Birmingham a little while back,they were ashamed over Birmingham gun history.

Falsely blaming them self for the true progress that Britain got worldwide,thanjs to guns, huntin ,explorers and the Red Coat,
 

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Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
(cont'd)
Rockies museum,
CM Russel museum and lewis and Clark interpretative center
Horseback riding in Summer star ranch
Charlo bison range and Garnet ghost town
Flathead lake, road to the sun and hiking in Glacier NP
and back to SLC (via Ogden and Logan)
Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
Good Morning,
I plan to visit MT next Sept.
May I ask you to give me your comments; do I forget something ? are my choices worthy ? Thank you in advance
Philippe (France)

Start in Billings, Then visit little big horn battlefield,
MT grizzly encounter,
a hot springs (do you have good spots ?)
Looking to buy a 375 H&H or .416 Rem Mag if anyone has anything they want to let go of
 
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