Win M70 ejector adjustment (CRF-models)

[Somnas]

Hi there,

I got my first magnum rifle last year, a Winchester Super Express in .375 H&H, which is also my first Winchester. Great rifle.

The only thing that's bothering me is that if I cycle the action properly the brass gets ejected so violently that the case necks get deformed against the rear of the receiver.

My guess is it's possible to adjust this behavior by trimming the fixed ejector a little bit, but I wanted to see if anyone got any pointers before I try it myself.

Also, a quick thank you to the members of this forum. I went through a lot of both old and new threads before deciding to buy this rifle and I'm really pleased with it.

 

[CBeck]

In my opinion, I would leave it alone as you’ve already noted, The force of the ejection is related to how fast and hard you cycle the bolt.

If you’re wanting to protect your brass for reloading, then don’t cycle the bolt as hard… but in a Hunting situation, I would rather have it clear my brass.

 

[Sketchy1973]

CBeck is spot on, don't mess with it. I have the same Winchester CRF model 70 as you. My rifle ejects to same way. Cycle it fast and hard, the brass gets deformed. If you cycle it all limp wristed and soft, your cases won't deform. You'll be just fine reloading that brass.

 

[roklok]

That's generally the way these rifles are. I have experienced the same thing with my Mausers and Remington 30 Express (US1917). The dents are no issue, resizing die takes care of that. I agree with above, don't mess with it.

 

[Somnas]

Thanks, I know the sizing die will take care of that particular example. Others are more mangled and will need some care before sizing. And yes, of course you want reliable ejection and feeding.

My issue is that this is beyond what’s needed for reliable ejection and like nothing I’ve seen on my other m98 rifles.

It’s giving me other headaches as well like losing cases after they’re sent flying 20ft or more into the vegetation while running drills on the range, but the point was not to argue it’s function but to learn if someone has experience adjusting the ejector.

 

[cajunchefray]

Thanks, I know the sizing die will take care of that particular example. Others are more mangled and will need some care before sizing. And yes, of course you want reliable ejection and feeding.

My issue is that this is beyond what’s needed for reliable ejection and like nothing I’ve seen on my other m98 rifles.

It’s giving me other headaches as well like losing cases after they’re sent flying 20ft or more into the vegetation while running drills on the range, but the point was not to argue it’s function but to learn if someone has experience adjusting the ejector.

Seriously suggest to not alter the extractor.
That series of Model 70 Winchester, and I have owned a few, have poor quality spring steel extractors, and if bent to modify, lose the proper tension to reliably extract a case. I have had a M70 .375H&H fail to extract a case tight in the chamber.

An article in Rifle magazine by John Barsness, quotes D'Arcy Echols, a renowned rifle maker regarding this improper heat treatment of M70 extractors.

I replaced the extractor with a Williams Firearms spring steel extractor, problem solved. I do not think Willaims Firearms are making this part now, as current FN/ Portugal extractors are properly tensioned spring steel.

Proper Mauser 98 extractors are tensioned spring steel.

Perhaps order a current replacement extractor, and have it fitted by a qualified gunsmith.

 

[Somnas]

Thanks, but the question is regarding the ejector, not the extractor.

 

[Bob Reed]

Hello, Somnas,

Do NOT modify the Ejector. If anything, you may have too much Extractor Tension, but without having your rifle in front of me, that's impossible to say for sure. However, there is a such a thing as too much extractor tension.

Cajunchefray, we just recently (within the last 2 months) bought 2 new Super Grades and both guns, a 7mm-08 and a .30-06 came from the Factory with ZERO Extractor Tension. I'm an Armorer so adjusting them was easy enough, but only time will tell if the spring-steel their using is good, or not.

Good Luck to y'all,

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hello, Somnas,

Do NOT modify the Ejector. If anything, you may have too much Extractor Tension, but without having your rifle in front of me, that's impossible to say for sure. However, there is a such a thing as too much extractor tension.

Cajunchefray, we just recently (within the last 2 months) bought 2 new Super Grades and both guns, a 7mm-08 and a .30-06 came from the Factory with ZERO Extractor Tension. I'm an Armorer so adjusting them was easy enough, but only time will tell if the spring-steel their using is good, or not.

Good Luck to y'all,

I agree. I think the issue is more likely that the extractor has too much tension and not releasing the rim as easily as it should. Here's a test. Duane Weibe in his booklet for converting standard 98 Mauser to 375 magnum specifies that properly modified extractor claw will JUST hold a loaded cartridge on the bolt face when bolt is removed. If your extractor has too much tension I would NOT advise trying to snap over on a cartridge dropped in chamber. And I agree with Wiebe, if a controlled feed DGR won't snap over it's not a DGR. I'm not that familiar with Model 70, new or old or in between, but I suspect like most factory rifles the manufacturing involves many components that are one-size-fits-all. I note the feeding problems many have encountered with large caliber CZ rifles from the factory are due to this and require fine tuning by a gunsmith.

The modified extractor on the 98 Mauser that I built into 404 was not snapping over and feeding was a bit rough. I trimmed the claw to the point where it just BARELY would hold a loaded cartridge on the bolt face but still could not get the issues sorted. 404 has no belt and the case has a gently sloping shoulder so everything has to be just right for snap over or cartridge will be pushed ahead of extractor into chamber and fail to extract. I finally determined that the extractor spring had too much tension. Supposed to be able to remove the extractor by simply squeezing it in the middle to pop it out of keeper groove at front of bolt. I had to pry my extractor off with a screwdriver. I reshaped the extractor to relieve some of the tension and that did the trick ... almost. Feeding improved 100% with cartridge rims gliding onto bolt face. Still had a few problems with snap over until I discovered my RWS brass was too short. That caused me to set up the sizing die incorrectly and push the shoulder back too far. Changed to Hornady brass, reset my dies, and now it cycles 100%. Smooth as glass and snaps over reliably. It ejects heavy loaded cartridges almost at my feet but empty cases will land about four feet away. Just right.

I suggest trying to gently reshape the extractor to reduce the spring tension. Another thing to check. Remove the bolt and look at the back end of the extractor where it rides on the bolt. That pivot point should conform to the shape of the bolt. If you see a gap underneath the arch, I suggest using a Dremel tool grinding wheel to very slightly reshape the outside edges until the pivot arch is flush with the bolt shape. This may very well be an issue if Winchester used the same extractor for different models. Also, trimming back that pivot will help relieve some spring tension.

 

[Tango]

I would not modify this. The rifle is designed for reliability in a dangerous situation above all else........robustly clear the empty cases from the ejection port is the only goal here, period. Winchester is not concerned with reloading and designed the ejection system as such. I consider it to be in the same class as a defensive/military firearm. As others have mentioned, a sizing die will take care of the dent. Losing is few cases at the range pales in comparison to a compromise in reliability. You'd be completely on your own warranty-wise if it's modified and a failure occurs.

The empty 375 case fired from my M70 on a buffalo hunt:

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Don't worry about attempting to modify your extractor. They are readily available and very easily replaced if somehow you screwed it up. And finally, as stated above, an overly tensioned extractor is very likely to break or jamb a cartridge in the chamber if snap over is attempted. I would NOT ignore this. I have never seen a bolt gun designed to throw empty cases on itself.

Personally, I don't want empty cases beating up my gun. And too much spring tension should be concerning from a safety standpoint. Like any spring that's wound up too tight, an extractor with too much tension will be more prone to break. Not cool if it breaks during a buffalo charge! Also, many (but not me) think it is essential to cycle a DGR from the shoulder. I would not want hot empty cases bouncing off the receiver that close to my face!!

 

[fourfive8]

If the case mouth is for certain hitting the receiver ring upon ejection… it is not normal and needs to be corrected. Cases can also hit scope mount or scope turret or even scope body upon ejection. The case should not hit anything upon ejection with this type CRF design. If uncomfortable with DIY, have gunsmith who knows what they are doing ID the issue and correct.

 

[roklok]

For those saying this isn't normal, what would or should prevent the case mouth from swinging around and striking rear of receiver ? When bolt is operated briskly the standing ejector imparts forward motion to the left side of the case head, rapidly accelerating it in an arc, pivoting around the right side of the case head that is still retained under the extractor claw. At a certain point, the case is angled enough that the right side of the rim is no longer retained by the extractor. As the right side of the rim exits the claw extractor, the case is free to leave the ejection port, but is spinning rapidly. The mouth (or shoulder) of the spinning case then contacts the rear receiver ring. Extractor tension may change ejection pattern to a degree, but I think if an extractor was loosened to the point the case doesn't spin it will be unreliable.

Watch this video, go into settings and change the playback speed to .25, and the M98 clearly spins the cases, with the shoulder or mouth of case impacting the rear receiver ring (or possibly just below on wood) every time. On a more bottlenecked case, the shoulder of the case may take brunt of impact, on a larger bore the mouth.

In my opinion this is normal and to be expected. As I said earlier, my mauser and enfield based rifles do the same thing. I can tell how rapidly I cycled the action by how dented the case mouth is.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have a 98 Mauser, a Springfield 03A3, a Remington 760, and a P14 Enfield. None of them eject empty cases back onto the gun and none has ever deformed the mouth of brass on ejection. I have never seen this in sixty years hunting. Over the years I have also picked up a ton of brass of various calibers left at ranges, dumps, and gravel pits. I never saw one case with a dented neck from smacking into a receiver.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

For those saying this isn't normal, what would or should prevent the case mouth from swinging around and striking rear of receiver ? When bolt is operated briskly the standing ejector imparts forward motion to the left side of the case head, rapidly accelerating it in an arc, pivoting around the right side of the case head that is still retained under the extractor claw. At a certain point, the case is angled enough that the right side of the rim is no longer retained by the extractor. As the right side of the rim exits the claw extractor, the case is free to leave the ejection port, but is spinning rapidly. The mouth (or shoulder) of the spinning case then contacts the rear receiver ring. Extractor tension may change ejection pattern to a degree, but I think if an extractor was loosened to the point the case doesn't spin it will be unreliable.

Watch this video, go into settings and change the playback speed to .25, and the M98 clearly spins the cases, with the shoulder or mouth of case impacting the rear receiver ring (or possibly just below on wood) every time. On a more bottlenecked case, the shoulder of the case may take brunt of impact, on a larger bore the mouth.

In my opinion this is normal and to be expected. As I said earlier, my mauser and enfield based rifles do the same thing. I can tell how rapidly I cycled the action by how dented the case mouth is.

Location and shape of the extractor usually determines the angle at which the empty case is released by the extractor. A steep angle and the case is released at a sharp angle. The sharper the angle, the greater the pitch when case leaves the extractor = more revolutions/distance/time = more likely the case will not be clear of rifle when the case does its first end over end revolution. A flatter shaped ejector will release the case at a flatter pitch = slower end over end revolution = further from the gun when it completes the revolution. Both scenarios assume equal spring tension on the extractor claw holding the rim. But if the spring tension increases, this can/will delay release from the claw. That should be self evident. Increased friction equals hanging onto the rim longer which imparts that residtance energy to the case when it's finally released late. A faster flip = more likely for case to not be clear of the rifle before it completes first rotation. Duane Wiebe is a master gunmaker. He defines proper extractor spring tension as just enough to hold a loaded cartridge on the bolt face of a bolt removed from the action. I think he got it right.

Looking at your video on my phone I was unable to stop the frame at exactly the point where the empty case is released from the claw. But it appears to me the case was partially deflected by the rear ring as it was released by the claw. And this would make sense. In his booklet for converting standard Mauser to magnum calibers, Wiebe states that the metal inside rear ring needs to be relieved a bit just behind the ejection port otherwise fatter magnum cases/cartridges may not completely clear the action when ejected.

Dealing with food poisoning tonight and unable to sleep so I brought out my Mauser to check on ejection extracting both empty case and loaded dummy rounds. The ejector is positioned WELL behind the end of the ejection port (rear ring). I cannot see how cases or cartridges could possibly hit anything but the rear ring during cycling. And only the middle of the case (possibly), not the mouth. Upon forcefully ejecting empty case several times, it did appear they were being deflected partially. At first I thought it might be the extra wood I left on the stock behind the ejection port. But if that was the case, the stock would be marked or at least the finish worn. No evidence of either. I examined the fresh bluing on the second ring and no evidence of wear around the ejection port. Also, the empty brass and dummy rounds have been cycled hundreds of times and no evidence of wear or stress on sides of the cases. If the brass is being deflected by the ring, it is very slight. It appears I removed just the right amount of metal from inside of ring to allow for unobstructed or nearly unobstructed ejection. It was a delicate operation. Remove too much metal and the back end of extractor slides out of its track when bolt is closed. Then extractor fails to rotate when bolt is opened and gun is jammed. Only fix is find a longer magnum length extractor ... = almost unobtanium.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Location and shape of the extractor usually determines the angle at which the empty case is released by the extractor. A steep angle and the case is released at a sharp angle. The sharper the angle, the greater the pitch when case leaves the extractor = more revolutions/distance/time = more likely the case will not be clear of rifle when the case does its first end over end revolution. A flatter shaped ejector will release the case at a flatter pitch = slower end over end revolution = further from the gun when it completes the revolution. Both scenarios assume equal spring tension on the extractor claw holding the rim. But if the spring tension increases, this can/will delay release from the claw. That should be self evident. Increased friction equals hanging onto the rim longer which imparts that residtance energy to the case when it's finally released late. A faster flip = more likely for case to not be clear of the rifle before it completes first rotation. Duane Wiebe is a master gunmaker. He defines proper extractor spring tension as just enough to hold a loaded cartridge on the bolt face of a bolt removed from the action. I think he got it right.

Looking at your video on my phone I was unable to stop the frame at exactly the point where the empty case is released from the claw. But it appears to me the case was partially deflected by the rear ring as it was released by the claw. And this would make sense. In his booklet for converting standard Mauser to magnum calibers, Wiebe states that the metal inside rear ring needs to be relieved a bit just behind the ejection port otherwise fatter magnum cases/cartridges may not completely clear the action when ejected.

Dealing with food poisoning tonight and unable to sleep so I brought out my Mauser to check on ejection extracting both empty case and loaded dummy rounds. The ejector is positioned WELL behind the end of the ejection port (rear ring). I cannot see how cases or cartridges could possibly hit anything but the rear ring during cycling. And only the middle of the case (possibly), not the mouth. Upon forcefully ejecting empty case several times, it did appear they were being deflected partially. At first I thought it might be the extra wood I left on the stock behind the ejection port. But if that was the case, the stock would be marked or at least the finish worn. No evidence of either. I examined the fresh bluing on the second ring and no evidence of wear around the ejection port. Also, the empty brass and dummy rounds have been cycled hundreds of times and no evidence of wear or stress on sides of the cases. If the brass is being deflected by the ring, it is very slight. It appears I removed just the right amount of metal from inside of ring to allow for unobstructed or nearly unobstructed ejection. It was a delicate operation. Remove too much metal and the back end of extractor slides out of its track when bolt is closed. Then extractor fails to rotate when bolt is opened and gun is jammed. Only fix is find a longer magnum length extractor ... = almost unobtanium.

Correction: If too much metal is removed inside the ring, the extractor rotates with the bolt when attempting to open the action and gun is jammed.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

To the OP: I would suggest you first try fixing this issue by relieving some spring tension on the extractor. Should be easy to undo if it is not the answer. Remove the extractor (should be YouTube videos for this - it's easily removed) and then gently try to bend it slightly in the middle, bending claw end outward. Reinstall the extractor and check to see if a loaded cartridge will still be held under the claw before putting bolt back in the receiver. The claw should just barely hold the shell. Then replace bolt and see how it cycles. Relieving too much tension could cause extractor to fail to extract cartridge from chamber but if the extractor passes the above test it should extract from chamber. Hopefully, this will allow cartridges to release from extractor with less resistance. The result should be empty cases ejecting at a better trajectory straight outward. They also should fall closer to you (less energy when released by the extractor).

If this doesn't work (and I'm convinced it will), the ejector will need to be reshaped. I might attempt it but not sure I'd advise that you try it. Not something that can be undone without replacing the ejector. Take it to a gunsmith.