Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[mgstucson]

I had a gunmaker here in Denmark to make me a .45-100 leveraction out of a 1895 Winchester Russian rifle. It took the 2,6inch case. The rim had to be lathed down. It shot 400grain Speer bullet at 720 m/sec. I had 3 + 1 in the magazine. The gunmaker did have his challenges to make it work he felt he became married to the project....:LOL.

@rigbymauser This is GREAT. This is precisely the conversion I have been wanting to do. 458 WM performance in a leveraction actually rated for the pressure. If you would be so kind, I have a few things I would love to know from the only person on the planet that I know has done what you have done.

1. Does it feed reliably? What mods were needed to make it feed?

2. Why did you modify the rims rather than inlet the bolt face?

3. How many will it hold in the mag?

4. What is the max cartridge length?

5. Have you shot 500gr bullets in it? What velocity? What powder do you use?

6. Could you post a pic?

Thanks for any info you could provide, and congratulations on being the first to do a great conversion.

 

[rigbymauser]

@rigbymauser This is GREAT. This is precisely the conversion I have been wanting to do. 458 WM performance in a leveraction actually rated for the pressure. If you would be so kind, I have a few things I would love to know from the only person on the planet that I know has done what you have done.

1. Does it feed reliably? What mods were needed to make it feed?

2. Why did you modify the rims rather than inlet the bolt face?

3. How many will it hold in the mag?

4. What is the max cartridge length?

5. Have you shot 500gr bullets in it? What velocity? What powder do you use?

6. Could you post a pic?

Thanks for any info you could provide, and congratulations on being the first to do a great conversion.

I only used 400grain Speer bullets as they were cheap back then(2004). The gunmaker really had his problems to make it feed. It took a lot of benchwork to finetuning. I used Norma 201 gunpowder. I remember the load was 65-70 grain and there was room for more but recoil was beginning to be an issue. I had easy extraction. The barrel was1:16 Krieger oktagon barrel with filecut top. I had a thread on **NOT**PERMITTED**.com many years ago about the rifle with pics. I may have some on an old computer somewhere.
It was to much easier to make the rifle work trimming the rims down. The limitation was the magazinebox and could not be altered. The rifle was restocked. 3 rounds in the mag + 1 in chamber. Cartridgelength I don`t remember but the Speerbullet was crimped in the top crimpgroove.
I remember the gunmakers biggest issue was the cartridge retainer. He had to do a lot of fitting and fiddling. If the cartridge was too low the bolt would grap...it the cartridges were laying too high it wouldn`t enter straight into chamber. Like I wrote the gunmaker became married with the rifle.
I never hunted any game with it. For me at was a leveraction project to make the ultimate leveraction rifle. I sold it to someone who wanted it for blackpowder shooting.

 

[mgstucson]

I only used 400grain Speer bullets as they were cheap back then(2004). The gunmaker really had his problems to make it feed. It took a lot of benchwork to finetuning. I used Norma 201 gunpowder. I remember the load was 65-70 grain and there was room for more but recoil was beginning to be an issue. I had easy extraction. The barrel was1:16 Krieger oktagon barrel with filecut top. I had a thread on **NOT**PERMITTED**.com many years ago about the rifle with pics. I may have some on an old computer somewhere.
It was to much easier to make the rifle work trimming the rims down. The limitation was the magazinebox and could not be altered. The rifle was restocked. 3 rounds in the mag + 1 in chamber. Cartridgelength I don`t remember but the Speerbullet was crimped in the top crimpgroove.
I remember the gunmakers biggest issue was the cartridge retainer. He had to do a lot of fitting and fiddling. If the cartridge was too low the bolt would grap...it the cartridges were laying too high it wouldn`t enter straight into chamber. Like I wrote the gunmaker became married with the rifle.
I never hunted any game with it. For me at was a leveraction project to make the ultimate leveraction rifle. I sold it to someone who wanted it for blackpowder shooting.

Very interesting. I have been looking at bolt dimensions for the 30-40 Krag and the bolt dimensions for the 458 WM, and they are very close as far as rim diameter and rim thickness. Case length on the 458 WM is also .1 " shorter, which is a lot when you are already at the outer limit of the mag box. 458 WM brass and ammo would also be much cheaper and more available. I am working on building a double rifle with the 45-100 round, and believe I will continue to pursue that project with the rimmed cartridge. As far as the 1895 lever action project, I am leaning more toward the 458 WM with it's rimless case. If you made the 45-100 work in the action, I am sure the 458 WM can work. Very encouraging. The double is the fastest second shot available, but only carries 2 rounds. The lever action is VERY CLOSE to the double for speed on repeat shots, and carries twice as many rounds. Lever actions are twice as fast to shoot as a bolt action, and carry twice as many rounds as a double when defending against a charge. In certain situations that could be the difference between life and death. That is why "I" want a lever action for Africa. The Win 1895 and Browning BLR are factory built to handle SAAMI pressure rating of the 458 WM, and 99% of other rounds used in Africa, so the whole "lever action is not as strong as the bolt action" argument does not apply to these 2 lever action rifles. Once again the mechanical genius of John Moses Browning shines through. His design from 1895 is still at the top of the class. I live in the desert southwest of the USA. It gets to 120 deg F in the summer and is as dusty as any environment in Africa. Lever actions have been functioning here for hunting and self-defense for over 100 years with a stellar record. So the whole "lever actions are too delicate for harsh environments" argument doesn't hold water either. Lever actions really are "The gun that won The West". Tucson is 2500 feet elevation, and 13 miles as the crow flies is Mt. Lemmon which is right at 10,000 feet elevation. You can hike it in a long day. So pioneers here needed rifles that could function in dusty 120 deg heat in the summer, and still kill elk and grizzly bears on the mountain in sub-zero deg winters. Lever actions have been acquitting themselves quite well in this harsh environment for many generations, and will for generations to come.

Thank you for taking time to share your knowledge and experience.

 

[1972RedNeck]

I push 405 Gr hardcasts out of my 45-90 1886 Japchester at 2400 FPS.

All stock. 45-70 brass. 2.75" OAL (can fit 7 in the tube instead of 6 at that length). IMR3031 powder.

 

[mgstucson]

I push 405 Gr hardcasts out of my 45-90 1886 Japchester at 2400 FPS.

All stock. 45-70 brass. 2.75" OAL (can fit 7 in the tube instead of 6 at that length). IMR3031 powder.

I hope you remain in good health.

 

[rigbymauser]

I push 405 Gr hardcasts out of my 45-90 1886 Japchester at 2400 FPS.

All stock. 45-70 brass. 2.75" OAL (can fit 7 in the tube instead of 6 at that length). IMR3031 powder.

Do you shoot it with the cresent buttplate on a summerday with just a T-shirt on?..LOL…”I can already feel the pains”..

 

[rigbymauser]

Very interesting. I have been looking at bolt dimensions for the 30-40 Krag and the bolt dimensions for the 458 WM, and they are very close as far as rim diameter and rim thickness. Case length on the 458 WM is also .1 " shorter, which is a lot when you are already at the outer limit of the mag box. 458 WM brass and ammo would also be much cheaper and more available. I am working on building a double rifle with the 45-100 round, and believe I will continue to pursue that project with the rimmed cartridge. As far as the 1895 lever action project, I am leaning more toward the 458 WM with it's rimless case. If you made the 45-100 work in the action, I am sure the 458 WM can work. Very encouraging. The double is the fastest second shot available, but only carries 2 rounds. The lever action is VERY CLOSE to the double for speed on repeat shots, and carries twice as many rounds. Lever actions are twice as fast to shoot as a bolt action, and carry twice as many rounds as a double when defending against a charge. In certain situations that could be the difference between life and death. That is why "I" want a lever action for Africa. The Win 1895 and Browning BLR are factory built to handle SAAMI pressure rating of the 458 WM, and 99% of other rounds used in Africa, so the whole "lever action is not as strong as the bolt action" argument does not apply to these 2 lever action rifles. Once again the mechanical genius of John Moses Browning shines through. His design from 1895 is still at the top of the class. I live in the desert southwest of the USA. It gets to 120 deg F in the summer and is as dusty as any environment in Africa. Lever actions have been functioning here for hunting and self-defense for over 100 years with a stellar record. So the whole "lever actions are too delicate for harsh environments" argument doesn't hold water either. Lever actions really are "The gun that won The West". Tucson is 2500 feet elevation, and 13 miles as the crow flies is Mt. Lemmon which is right at 10,000 feet elevation. You can hike it in a long day. So pioneers here needed rifles that could function in dusty 120 deg heat in the summer, and still kill elk and grizzly bears on the mountain in sub-zero deg winters. Lever actions have been acquitting themselves quite well in this harsh environment for many generations, and will for generations to come.

Thank you for taking time to share your knowledge and experience.

The “cowboygun” has somewhat been ridiculized as a serious hunting firearm. But for people who didn’t knew any better it was so. Bringing a SRC in a pistolcaliber for a huntingtrip which lacked power and accuracy did seem rather stupid. They may not know anything besides watching John Wayne. However when talking about leveractions for those who did know something(like reading books)we all knew there is many leveractions that was made to bring down biggame with no problems. Here in later years many has brought their Marlin 1895 to Africa proved it was adequet for the big five. Bullet selection is crucial. To even further update there is a guy from Alabama who has a .70-150 Leveraction doing some remakable numbers that brings the leveraction up to 12 or 10 bore doublerifle class. But some of these powerfull leveraction is not saddleguns for cowboy work. They are biggame huntingrifles.