Why did Winchester skip over the 375 Win Mag and 416 Win Mag?

[C.W. Richter]

Jack O'Connor was marketing for Winchester. The 270 isn't that much greater than a 30-06 and I'd rather have the latter if after bigger stuff! The newer Win Mags long and short run circles around them at distance. They did come up with some good stuff but mainly for bulk sale on the homefront.

 

[mark-hunter]

The Winchester Website still shows the Safari Express in 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag. Both of which are true Magnum lengths, right?

I dont think so. (yes for cartridges, not for rifle m70)

Below photo is from older Gun Digest.

375 H&H adjustment of action is shown compared to 30-06. Rifle Winchester m70. There is no magnum length action.

One funny coincidence, or maybe not:
LOA of 375 HH is same as 416 Rem Mag, equal to 3.6 inch.
Coincidence?
I dont think so.

Its about size of cartridge which with adjustment can still fit to medium length action.

3.34 inch LOA, is for cartirdiges to fit medium action without adjusments. (and 3.6 with adjustements)

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My question isn’t why the skipped a short action 375 and 416, but rather why did they make the 458 win mag on a short action? If they had, and were going to maintain the 375 H&H, why wasn’t the “458 win mag” originally a 375 H&H length cartridge - essentially a 458 Lott?

As for a 416, many more rifles pre war were made in 404 (or .423) caliber - they were made by more than just Jeffery. Likewise, I believe WR made more 425s pre war, than Rigby made 416s, likely because of the intermediate action. The resurgence of the 416 is truly remarkable. If Harry Selby’s tracker hadn’t ran over his double, the 416 may be as obscure as the 350 Rigby Magnum….

@318AE
The 350 Rigby may be gone but the 35 Whelen is alive and kicking and will equal the old 350 Rigby.
Bob

 

[PerH]

Because they didnt think into it,nit was the 06 lenght idea of 2.5 inches and new powder post ww2 that made many engineers think it was not deemed needed. Then as time set along ,and by God dont think into archives of what Germany once developed and work with that as a start point.

As the 11,2x72 , taken that one up to .458, done, or .500 Schuler down to .458 as the SA guys did .

Short answer wildcatters like Siatos, Lott ,Keith, Kvale , Taylor ,and others behind it.

 

[Northern Shooter]

I dont think so. (yes for cartridges, not for rifle m70)

Below photo is from older Gun Digest.

375 H&H adjustment of action is shown compared to 30-06. Rifle Winchester m70. There is no magnum length action.

One funny coincidence, or maybe not:
LOA of 375 HH is same as 416 Rem Mag, equal to 3.6 inch.
Coincidence?
I dont think so.

Its about size of cartridge which with adjustment can still fit to medium length action.

3.34 inch LOA, is for cartirdiges to fit medium action without adjusments. (and 3.6 with adjustements)

View attachment 528668

Interesting, I didn't realize that it was possible to feed a Magnum length cartridge (375H&H,416Rem) from a standard length action with modifications.

If this is easier or more cost effective than producing an actual Magnum length action like the CZ550, why aren't more manufacturers going to route?

 

[mark-hunter]

If this is easier or more cost effective than producing an actual Magnum length action like the CZ550, why aren't more manufacturers going to route?

Of course. More cost effective.

Would you prefer to keep 2 production lines (medium and magnum length actions) with machinery tools and workers, or only one line (medium action), and do a bit of modification, for one cartridge only: 375HH? (and by doing so, cover the world market including Africa and Asia for dangerous game)

Majority of modern factories abandoned 2 production lines, and kept to one production line for medium action.
This, in turn, resulted in the new era of short magnum cartridges. (and rifles with smaller magazine capacity)
Magnum length action production remained for smaller workshops, and elite classic market.

for example - CZ zbrojovka at its peak had:
Short action line: cz 527 (before ZKK 601)
Medium action line: cz 550 medium (Before ZKK 600)
Magnum action line: cz 550 magnum (before ZKK 602)
But this was not economically sustainable, as reckoned. So this all has phased out.
(When they phased out, new mauser 98, made by mauser Germany, jumped to 10000 EUR/US MRSP)

Similar choice like Winchester had another Mauser factory: Zastava.
They made rifles Zastava m70 (aka m98 clone) on medium action, and added 375 HH and 458 win mag to their catalogue. (and 458 win mag is medium length with 3.34 inch LOA).

Economically speaking medium action is best buy, you can fit inside medium actions cartridge's, and short action cartridges' without problem.

So: Majority of European factories today, are making rifles up to 300 win mag, and 9.3x62.
They dont bother with 375 HH, nor 458 wm.

The reasoning probably is: African hunting market is too small, and Asia is closed for DG. Who needs 375 or bigger any more?
There are few exemptions, of course.

One is steyr with their 376 Steyer caliber.

Or, Sako 85, produced in 6 action lenghts - now that is something.
Then there is American industry with various new (short magnums) you name them, 375 ruger, 416 rem mag, etc

But now, you have a picture. (at least from my perspective)

 

[318AE]

@318AE
The 350 Rigby may be gone but the 35 Whelen is alive and kicking and will equal the old 350 Rigby.
Bob

100% agree. Arguably, the 350 Rigby Magnum got the ballistics right. The 35 Whelen is exceedingly more practical, given it’s based on brass you can actually buy or form from ubiquitous 30’06.

 

[Velo Dog]

Is the model 70 not offered for a Magnum length action for the 375 and 416 RemMag models?

Hello Northern Shooter,

The otherwise excellent Model 70 Winchester was originally designed as a 30-06 length, width and depth action.
It has, as others have already mentioned, been modified to work with the .375 H&H, as well as the .300 H&H, by removing metal here and there from the action, so that the H&H cartridges can be squeezed into the magazine (3 rounds) and can reliably feed during cycling of the bolt.

When I said that it is too bad Winchester never made the Model 70 in “true magnum size”, I would like to have seen a Model 70 action, designed large enough in the first place, to not need any metal removed, before it worked properly with truly large cartridges.
And also, designed large enough to easily hold, in the unmodified magazine, three .416 Rigby rounds, or three .500 Jeffery rounds, or three .505 Gibbs rounds, or five .375 H&H, .458 Lott, etc.

Anyway, hope my explanation here sheds enough light on what I was trying to say earlier.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Velo Dog]

The Winchester Website still shows the Safari Express in 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag. Both of which are true Magnum lengths, right?

Unless Velo Dog was referring to 3.75 length actions like the Rigby.

Yes I was.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Velo Dog,

One thing, the original 1937 Win 70 300 and 375 H&H have a 4 round magazine from the start without going or needing a deep one. They only used the Mauser concept for the magazine design. Great!

CF

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi Velo Dog,

One thing, the original 1937 Win 70 300 and 375 H&H have a 4 round magazine from the start without going or needing a deep one. They only used the Mauser concept for the magazine design. Great!

CF

Hello Clodo Ferreira,

Thank you for straightening me out on this.
About 35 years ago, I owned one, made in the late 1950’s, caliber .375 H&H.
Seems like my feeble memory had it holding only 3 in the magazine.
This would not be the first time my memory proved faulty and that is for sure. LoL

I like the various controlled round Model 70’s that have been made by Winchester, off and on over the decades.
I had formerly owned several of them, from .270 caliber through .458 Winchester.
Hopefully my 70 year old memory is correct this time, in that Model 70’s made for the .30-06 family of cartridges held 5 in the magazine.

Even the dreaded push feed, cheaper to make version, is not exactly a bad rifle, IMO.
However, I never did own one of that particular design.
And I think it is disappointing that Winchester chose to continue calling their cheapened / push feed version by the same model number.
They should’ve called it the “Model 72” or some such, (again, just IMO).

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[uplander01]

Winchester stopped making good decisions in 1964. The company has never been the same since. I watched an old sales video of one of their execs arriving in Africa in the mid 60's and pitching his PH at the range site in on the advantages of a post 64 winchester model 70----it was a joke. I felt for the guy, as I'm in sales. He was doing a pretty good job considering he was selling a turd LOL.

 

[DrBob]

The Winchester Website still shows the Safari Express in 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag. Both of which are true Magnum lengths, right?

Unless Velo Dog was referring to 3.75 length actions like the Rigby.

The "standard" Win 70 has always been fully capable of 3.6" OAL cartridges. The difference in the 3.34" and 3.6" OAL cartridges is in the magazine, follower, bolt stop and ejector. All are parts easily swapped out. I took a M70 Safari, swapped out those parts and was then able to load 458 Win mag to 3.6" for Lott power. The "short magnum" craze of the 1950's lead Winchester down the short path while it should have been the Lott. As for the 284 Win... that was stolen from the 7.5 Swiss and the 338 from the 330 BSA. Nothing is new...just repackaged.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Velo Dog,

By the way, another step back in the post 64 M70 was the abandoning of that original 300 and 375 H&H magazine, situation was carried to this day! Today, all .375 H&H M70 Rifles have 3 rounds magazine capacity no matter the present post 90´ pre 64 action is a true .375 H&H length one.

 

[meigsbucks]

I believe Winchester wanted to save $$$ by having a family of cartridges that fit a standard length action. As far as a .458 Win vs .458 Lott, same reason plus they probably felt the Win was the most recoil people were willing to tolerate.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Forgot to mention I have one of those M70 Pre 64 .375 H&H, made in 1954. It feed, extract and eject the 4+1 cartridges or fired cases as if there were no one in the chamber-magazine...!

CF

 

[geoff rath]

Hello Clodo Ferreira,

Thank you for straightening me out on this.
About 35 years ago, I owned one, made in the late 1950’s, caliber .375 H&H.
Seems like my feeble memory had it holding only 3 in the magazine.
This would not be the first time my memory proved faulty and that is for sure. LoL

I like the various controlled round Model 70’s that have been made by Winchester, off and on over the decades.
I had formerly owned several of them, from .270 caliber through .458 Winchester.
Hopefully my 70 year old memory is correct this time, in that Model 70’s made for the .30-06 family of cartridges held 5 in the magazine.

Even the dreaded push feed, cheaper to make version, is not exactly a bad rifle, IMO.
However, I never did own one of that particular design.
And I think it is disappointing that Winchester chose to continue calling their cheapened / push feed version by the same model number.
They should’ve called it the “Model 72” or some such, (again, just IMO).

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

70 1/2?

 

[WAB]

Hi Velo Dog,

By the way, another step back in the post 64 M70 was the abandoning of that original 300 and 375 H&H magazine, situation was carried to this day! Today, all .375 H&H M70 Rifles have 3 rounds magazine capacity no matter the present post 90´ pre 64 action is a true .375 H&H length one.

My custom M70 .375 started life as a stainless synthetic model. It held 5 cartridges in the magazine in original configuration.

 

[colorado]

Jack O'Connor was marketing for Winchester. The 270 isn't that much greater than a 30-06 and I'd rather have the latter if after bigger stuff! The newer Win Mags long and short run circles around them at distance. They did come up with some good stuff but mainly for bulk sale on the homefront.

There really hasn't been a new cartridge, except some bench rest specifc cartridges, since the 7mm Rem Mag was introduced. They've all been hype and in most cases the earlier cartridges still out perform them. (270 Weatherby Mag vs 27- WSM etc.).

 

[geoff rath]

Ruger's 375, and 416??