Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[EfRed]

I think the Weatherby cartridges do some things that for a really long time were the only game in town for getting higher-than-usual velocities for a given caliber. Those cartridges can do things that other cartridges could not and in the right hands and for the right reasons are useful. Perhaps there are other reasons, but in my view, the primary reason for those high velocities is to flatten trajectory and (more importantly in my opinion) shorten flight time thereby reducing wind drift at distance. The wrong reason is to make it kill better at ordinary ranges.

I think the bad reputation came when they were purchased for the wrong reasons. A 375HH does about what needs to and can be done with a 375 for ordinary buffalo hunting at ordinary distance. If a guy shows up with a 375 Weatherby, the PH didn't know why he chose that. If he chose it because he felt he needed it to be more deadly than an ordinary 375HH, that would of course make any rational person wonder why does this guy think he needs that extra boost? Maybe because he isn't confident of his shooting? And if we are honest, more than one client has done exactly that. Experience that a few times and he could be forgiven for generalizing.

Beyond that, the bullets in the 1950s and 60s may not have been up to the velocities encountered up close and so there would then be a hardware problem on top of the perceived shooter problem.

I chose a 375 Weatherby over a .375 H&H because of its longer range capability. Not every hunt is a buffalo hunt. And the little extra velocity can't hurt. Handloaders can even get rid of it. Weatherby cartridges are liked for grizzly in Alaska, for the distance performance. I will also pay attention to my bullet. There are bullets today that will out-tough a Weatherby's velocity.

 

[CoElkHunter]

That's true. I'm a giant of a man and I hate recoil. When I shot my 470 the PHs commented they couldn't believe that it had no muzzle jump whatsoever. For me, almost all the energy is going into my nearly 7' and 300lb frame. Even worse when I'm at a bench as I become a brick wall to absorb energy. Compare that to a waif-ish 6' guy that weighs 170lb and is limber...they shoot a big bore and you watch their body sway like a tree in a breeze.

Being very tall, how the heck do you get enough LOP on your rifles and shotguns?

 

[bruce moulds]

bullets are critical with higher velocity.
it can even make a difference between closer ranges and further out due to velocity difference.
high velocity cartridges DO kill better than slower ones, as long as the bullet is suitable.
bruce.

 

[thriller]

I remember my ph saying something about over penetration on elephants by a 460 weather by that is about all I need to know not to need one haha.

 

[rookhawk]

Being very tall, how the heck do you get enough LOP on your rifles and shotguns?

Good question. A couple of factors. One, with shotguns I should really be likely 16-1/8” LOP but its so long that it makes me a slow shooter. I’ve shot my whole life with shorter guns so even now I prefer shooting about a 15-3/4” LOP on a shotgun, particular a straight English grip. Then transitioning over to rifles, properly stocked rifles with good geometry fit for shooting free-hand, erect, or off shooting sticks at about 1” less length of pull than a shotgun as a general rule of thumb. So a 14-3/4” to a 14-7/8” LOP on a bolt rifle suits me quite well. I can usually find nice British rifles with 1/2” pads on them in that 14”+ range so I just add a 1” silvers pad and I’m good to go. For double rifles, I was fortunate to get a 15-1/2” LOP .470 and thats about perfect for balancing fit with speed of bringing to my shoulder...I got lucky.

But mid-century American stocked rifles like Winchester’s with 13.5” LOP. Yuck. Not a good fit for an ape like me.

Keep in mind, shooting prone calls for a totally different stock length and eye relief and its ironic because that is a shot that almost never is used in hunting, only for range shooting. I just make sure my guns come to my eye ready to shoot upright and I’m good to go.

 

[Rule 303]

Being very tall, how the heck do you get enough LOP on your rifles and shotguns?

This is interesting. I am a piddling 6'2" but have a longish neck. On hard kicking rifles I have often scoped myself at the bench or when shooting fast as I forget to pull my head back on the stock. The stock I had made for my 416 Rigby has a 15" length of pull, probably wasted as I then put an Aimpoint on it.

Re shooting game from the prone position. I am a rare one amongst my mates as I have shot a bit of game from the prone position. I'll blame infantry training for this. Some of my hunting is in open country when the grass is short prone is the most stable position available. If time permits and the range is more than 50mts I go prone, if no other rest is available unless about to bomb up a mob of pigs. Even took one of my Thars in NZ from the prone position.

 

[ack]

I have a Weatherby Ultra Light which I love and has been trouble free for12 years from Wyoming to Alaska an then Africa..only A 30/06 but it's accurate and easy to carry all day..Has a break because of weight but so what,,no one in Namibia ever complained and it fits perfect..Quality all the way...

 

[revturbo9967]

I post my question here as it pertains to Weatherby, some what. I have a Weatherby mark V in .338 Lapua. I had my fun with this rifle and it is nearing a barrel change within the next 300 rounds. I have contemplated with flipping this to a DG cartridge due to having the action rather then buy another rifle. I get the control round feed vs push feed argument, so that holds here as well. I considered jumping to a .416 rigby in this action, and re bedding everything into a sporting stock. Am I off my rocker for even thinking of going in this direction seeing its a push feed rifle?

 

[Ray B]

I don't have a problem with rebarrelling to a different cartridge however rebarrelling and restocking seems a bit much. the only thing "kept" was the action. Unless you have an attachment to the action my suggestion is to trade/sell the rifle as is and get one that has the chambering and stock that you desire.

 

[revturbo9967]

I don't have a problem with rebarrelling to a different cartridge however rebarrelling and restocking seems a bit much. the only thing "kept" was the action. Unless you have an attachment to the action my suggestion is to trade/sell the rifle as is and get one that has the chambering and stock that you desire.

I have the original stock, I should have specified i still own it. I went a different route with the stock when I bought the rifle. Valid point though

 

[rookhawk]

I post my question here as it pertains to Weatherby, some what. I have a Weatherby mark V in .338 Lapua. I had my fun with this rifle and it is nearing a barrel change within the next 300 rounds. I have contemplated with flipping this to a DG cartridge due to having the action rather then buy another rifle. I get the control round feed vs push feed argument, so that holds here as well. I considered jumping to a .416 rigby in this action, and re bedding everything into a sporting stock. Am I off my rocker for even thinking of going in this direction seeing its a push feed rifle?

Yes, yes you are.

 

[WAB]

I post my question here as it pertains to Weatherby, some what. I have a Weatherby mark V in .338 Lapua. I had my fun with this rifle and it is nearing a barrel change within the next 300 rounds. I have contemplated with flipping this to a DG cartridge due to having the action rather then buy another rifle. I get the control round feed vs push feed argument, so that holds here as well. I considered jumping to a .416 rigby in this action, and re bedding everything into a sporting stock. Am I off my rocker for even thinking of going in this direction seeing its a push feed rifle?

I would just sell the rifle and buy what you want. You’ll be money ahead and end up with something you’ll be happier with in the long run.

 

[BeeMaa]

I post my question here as it pertains to Weatherby, some what. I have a Weatherby mark V in .338 Lapua. I had my fun with this rifle and it is nearing a barrel change within the next 300 rounds. I have contemplated with flipping this to a DG cartridge due to having the action rather then buy another rifle. I get the control round feed vs push feed argument, so that holds here as well. I considered jumping to a .416 rigby in this action, and re bedding everything into a sporting stock. Am I off my rocker for even thinking of going in this direction seeing its a push feed rifle?

Push feed is fine as long as the rifle is reliable and you are comfortable with the rifle. Most of the problems associated with PF rifles come right back to the one behind the trigger.

And yes, you are off your rocker. Buying a new rifle to go on safari is part of the thrill. Just make sure you have enough time to be comfortable and accurate with it.

 

[One Day...]

Ah, the good old CRF issue...

I am on record for observing that the two reasons CRF and its characteristic big external claw extractor were perfected in the 1890’s by Paul Mauser, at the request of the German Imperial Army, were to:

1 --- prevent extraction failure of the pure copper shells loaded with black powder, that were notorious for sticking in dirty chambers after sustained fire.​

​

I reckon that brass shells loaded with smokeless powder resolved this issue a long time ago. If a case gets stuck nowadays, Mauser claw extractor or not, the action itself is stuck, short of a rubber mallet.​

​

2 --- prevent 1890’s peasant conscripts who had never handled a bolt action rifle before, to jam the rifle by double feeding and risk detonating the cartridge in the chamber with the tip of the spitzer bullet of the cartridge being rammed into it; or to load the rifle inadvertently by pushing a cartridge in the chamber and leaving it there.​

​

I continue to appreciate the fact that in a true Mauser CRF rifle it is impossible to close the bolt on a cartridge inadvertently pushed in the chamber, and I only wish that no CRF extractor would be beveled to allow it to jump the rim of a cartridge already pushed into the chamber - as some manufacturers do, thereby negating this feature. This would make it impossible to load a CRF rifle inadvertently, and to fire it accidentally.​

In truth, assuming, revturbo9967, that you will not use circa 1890 black powder loaded soft brass shells, and that you will handle your rifle responsibly, the stark reality is that push feed rifles are every bit as appropriate on safari as controlled round feed rifles.

Certainly, if starting from a clean slate, and any other consideration being equal, CRF cannot be viewed as a negative, and I do see it as a positive (I am also on record for being a strong supported of the CZ 550 magnum action - of which I own several in DG calibers), but it did not bother me in the slightest to NOT have CRF on my Mark V .340 Wby or my Mark V .257 Wby when I took them to Africa, and it does not bother me in the slightest either to NOT have CRF on my Blaser R8.

Your plan make absolutely perfect sense, and I would say that depending on your objectives, the calibers that may make the most sense for a Mark V re-barrel, with Africa in mind, could be:

• .300 Wby: the penultimate "any plains game / anywhere" caliber. Of course, the .340 Wby is always in the run for the heavy PG, but in truth now that the .300 benefits from modern slugs such as TTSX or AFrame, the .340 is overkill for all but the largest PG (e.g. Moose or Eland), while it is not legal - although it would do the job nicely - for DG.
• .375 Wby: with 250 gr slugs it gives the .375 the reach that the H&H almost but not quite delivers, and it steps deep into .416 territory with 350 gr slugs. Or as Red Leg would rightly say, it does everything beautifully with a 300 gr slug. I would still go .375 Wby over .375 H&H because it gives you a lit more, like the various .300 mag over the .30-06, and in a pinch you can fire ubiquitous .375 H&H ammo in a .375 Wby chamber should your Wby ammo be lost in transit.
• .416 Rigby indeed, or for that matter .450 Rigby, which get you respectively in the .40+ and .45 categories, without the substantial recoil premium that the .416 Wby or .460 Wby will exert, for they may indeed be a bridge too far for most of us mere mortals, and long range does not really apply to Buffalo or Elephant hunting.

Sure, some folks do not like the Weatherby stock, which does not mean that it is bad; sure too, some folks have bad things to say about the Mark V action (hint: generally after it has undergone home-gunsmithing wink, wink, wink...); and sure also some folks showed up in Africa with a brand new out of the box .378 Wby they had never shot and got bitten by it (this also happens nowadays with folks showing up with a .375 Remington Ultra Magnum), but do not let any of this deter you, the Mark V has earned its spurs from America to Asia and Africa to Mongolia, from Elephant to Marco Polo.

And certainly, putting together the "perfect" - per your own definition of perfect - rifle for your safari is indeed part of the fun, and in this case I equate buying one with building one, so it seems to me you are solidly on your rocker

 

[BeeMaa]

Ah, the good old CRF issue...

I am on record for observing that the two reasons CRF and its characteristic big external claw extractor were perfected in the 1890’s by Paul Mauser, at the request of the German Imperial Army, were to:

1 --- prevent extraction failure of the pure copper shells loaded with black powder, that were notorious for sticking in dirty chambers after sustained fire.​

​

I reckon that brass shells loaded with smokeless powder resolved this issue a long time ago. If a case gets stuck nowadays, Mauser claw extractor or not, the action itself is stuck, short of a rubber mallet.​

​

2 --- prevent 1890’s peasant conscripts who had never handled a bolt action rifle before, to jam the rifle by double feeding and risk detonating the cartridge in the chamber with the tip of the spitzer bullet of the cartridge being rammed into it; or to load the rifle inadvertently by pushing a cartridge in the chamber and leaving it there.​

​

I continue to appreciate the fact that in a true Mauser CRF rifle it is impossible to close the bolt on a cartridge inadvertently pushed in the chamber, and I only wish that no CRF extractor would be beveled to allow it to jump the rim of a cartridge already pushed into the chamber - as some manufacturers do, thereby negating this feature. This would make it impossible to load a CRF rifle inadvertently, and to fire it accidentally.​

In truth, assuming, revturbo9967, that you will not use circa 1890 black powder loaded soft brass shells, and that you will handle your rifle responsibly, the stark reality is that push feed rifles are every bit as appropriate on safari as controlled round feed rifles.

Certainly, if starting from a clean slate, and any other consideration being equal, CRF cannot be viewed as a negative, and I do see it as a positive (I am also on record for being a strong supported of the CZ 550 magnum action - of which I own several in DG calibers), but it did not bother me in the slightest to NOT have CRF on my Mark V .340 Wby or my Mark V .257 Wby when I took them to Africa, and it does not bother me in the slightest either to NOT have CRF on my Blaser R8.

Your plan make absolutely perfect sense, and I would say that depending on your objectives, the calibers that may make the most sense for a Mark V re-barrel, with Africa in mind, could be:

• .300 Wby: the penultimate "any plains game / anywhere" caliber. Of course, the .340 Wby is always in the run for the heavy PG, but in truth now that the .300 benefits from modern slugs such as TTSX or AFrame, the .340 is overkill for all but the largest PG (e.g. Moose or Eland), while it is not legal - although it would do the job nicely - for DG.
• .375 Wby: with 250 gr slugs it gives the .375 the reach that the H&H almost but not quite delivers, and it steps deep into .416 territory with 350 gr slugs. Or as Red Leg would rightly say, it does everything beautifully with a 300 gr slug. I would still go .375 Wby over .375 H&H because it gives you a lit more, like the various .300 mag over the .30-06, and in a pinch you can fire ubiquitous .375 H&H ammo in a .375 Wby chamber should your Wby ammo be lost in transit.
• .416 Rigby indeed, or for that matter .450 Rigby, which get you respectively in the .40+ and .45 categories, without the substantial recoil premium that the .416 Wby or .460 Wby will exert, for they may indeed be a bridge too far for most of us mere mortals, and long range does not really apply to Buffalo or Elephant hunting.

Sure, some folks do not like the Weatherby stock, which does not mean that it is bad; sure too, some folks have bad things to say about the Mark V action (hint: generally after it has undergone home-gunsmithing wink, wink, wink...); and sure also some folks showed up in Africa with a brand new out of the box .378 Wby they had never shot and got bitten by it (this also happens nowadays with folks showing up with a .375 Remington Ultra Magnum), but do not let any of this deter you, the Mark V has earned its spurs from America to Asia and Africa to Mongolia, from Elephant to Marco Polo.

And certainly, putting together the "perfect" - per your own definition of perfect - rifle for your safari is indeed part of the fun, and in this case I equate buying one with building one, so it seems to me you are solidly on your rocker

Well said. No need to avoid Weatherby rifles. If you want to avoid something, make it a muzzle break. Everything else is on the table.

Sorry guys, had to open that can of worms.

 

[EfRed]

I post my question here as it pertains to Weatherby, some what. I have a Weatherby mark V in .338 Lapua. I had my fun with this rifle and it is nearing a barrel change within the next 300 rounds. I have contemplated with flipping this to a DG cartridge due to having the action rather then buy another rifle. I get the control round feed vs push feed argument, so that holds here as well. I considered jumping to a .416 rigby in this action, and re bedding everything into a sporting stock. Am I off my rocker for even thinking of going in this direction seeing its a push feed rifle?

Love the 375 Wby as suggested below, but your 338 Lapua bolt face is cut quite a bit wider than the .375s. It looks as though this isn't an issue with the 416 Rigby. The 54 degree bolt rotation of the Wby action is a distinct advantage; while controlled feed is nice, it doesn't offer a distinct advantage such as that. Lack of a 3 position safety on the Wby is an inconvenience. Consider carefully what magazine capacity you require, and be sure that the Wby action will accommodate....

 

[JimP]

If I wanted to rebarrel that rifle to a DG caliber I would just rebarrel it to a 375 Weatherby, not a 378, but a 375

 

[EfRed]

If I wanted to rebarrel that rifle to a DG caliber I would just rebarrel it to a 375 Weatherby, not a 378, but a 375

for a 375 = ...bolt face going to require metal restoration.... maybe need a new bolt...

 

[revturbo9967]

for a 375 = ...bolt face going to require metal restoration.... maybe need a new bolt...

This is correct. The .585 bolt face can only except 338 lapua, 30/378 weatherby, 338/378 weatherby , 378 weatherby mag, 416 rigby, 416 weatherby mag , 460 weatherby mag, and 470 nitro express.
Out of these the rigby seems to be my favorite choice . I really want nothing to do with a weatherby screaming magnum, I already have a few other barrel eaters , including this 338

 

[revturbo9967]

Ah, the good old CRF issue...

I am on record for observing that the two reasons CRF and its characteristic big external claw extractor were perfected in the 1890’s by Paul Mauser, at the request of the German Imperial Army, were to:

1 --- prevent extraction failure of the pure copper shells loaded with black powder, that were notorious for sticking in dirty chambers after sustained fire.​

​

I reckon that brass shells loaded with smokeless powder resolved this issue a long time ago. If a case gets stuck nowadays, Mauser claw extractor or not, the action itself is stuck, short of a rubber mallet.​

​

2 --- prevent 1890’s peasant conscripts who had never handled a bolt action rifle before, to jam the rifle by double feeding and risk detonating the cartridge in the chamber with the tip of the spitzer bullet of the cartridge being rammed into it; or to load the rifle inadvertently by pushing a cartridge in the chamber and leaving it there.​

​

I continue to appreciate the fact that in a true Mauser CRF rifle it is impossible to close the bolt on a cartridge inadvertently pushed in the chamber, and I only wish that no CRF extractor would be beveled to allow it to jump the rim of a cartridge already pushed into the chamber - as some manufacturers do, thereby negating this feature. This would make it impossible to load a CRF rifle inadvertently, and to fire it accidentally.​

In truth, assuming, revturbo9967, that you will not use circa 1890 black powder loaded soft brass shells, and that you will handle your rifle responsibly, the stark reality is that push feed rifles are every bit as appropriate on safari as controlled round feed rifles.

Certainly, if starting from a clean slate, and any other consideration being equal, CRF cannot be viewed as a negative, and I do see it as a positive (I am also on record for being a strong supported of the CZ 550 magnum action - of which I own several in DG calibers), but it did not bother me in the slightest to NOT have CRF on my Mark V .340 Wby or my Mark V .257 Wby when I took them to Africa, and it does not bother me in the slightest either to NOT have CRF on my Blaser R8.

Your plan make absolutely perfect sense, and I would say that depending on your objectives, the calibers that may make the most sense for a Mark V re-barrel, with Africa in mind, could be:

• .300 Wby: the penultimate "any plains game / anywhere" caliber. Of course, the .340 Wby is always in the run for the heavy PG, but in truth now that the .300 benefits from modern slugs such as TTSX or AFrame, the .340 is overkill for all but the largest PG (e.g. Moose or Eland), while it is not legal - although it would do the job nicely - for DG.
• .375 Wby: with 250 gr slugs it gives the .375 the reach that the H&H almost but not quite delivers, and it steps deep into .416 territory with 350 gr slugs. Or as Red Leg would rightly say, it does everything beautifully with a 300 gr slug. I would still go .375 Wby over .375 H&H because it gives you a lit more, like the various .300 mag over the .30-06, and in a pinch you can fire ubiquitous .375 H&H ammo in a .375 Wby chamber should your Wby ammo be lost in transit.
• .416 Rigby indeed, or for that matter .450 Rigby, which get you respectively in the .40+ and .45 categories, without the substantial recoil premium that the .416 Wby or .460 Wby will exert, for they may indeed be a bridge too far for most of us mere mortals, and long range does not really apply to Buffalo or Elephant hunting.

Sure, some folks do not like the Weatherby stock, which does not mean that it is bad; sure too, some folks have bad things to say about the Mark V action (hint: generally after it has undergone home-gunsmithing wink, wink, wink...); and sure also some folks showed up in Africa with a brand new out of the box .378 Wby they had never shot and got bitten by it (this also happens nowadays with folks showing up with a .375 Remington Ultra Magnum), but do not let any of this deter you, the Mark V has earned its spurs from America to Asia and Africa to Mongolia, from Elephant to Marco Polo.

And certainly, putting together the "perfect" - per your own definition of perfect - rifle for your safari is indeed part of the fun, and in this case I equate buying one with building one, so it seems to me you are solidly on your rocker

Well said sir