Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

I’m going to assume from your responses you’ve never been to Africa and simply want to argue. A farm they release CBL lions on is 2500-20000 acres. It is high fenced and all animals on it are property of the landowner. No one is encroaching on their borders. More CBL lions are released and shot on one farm than some entire countries have quota. A 100,000-500,000 acre concession area might only get 1 or 2 lions on quota. CBL is a farming supply chain model. Hunting wild lions is a conservation model.
100% right
Never been though I said that along with never hunted lion.

But like tx fl has game ranches
I know what a game ranch or farm is.
I never been to one. I have been invited but it was for a turkey and they don’t farm / ranch them.

I have honestly not coincided a cbl hunt
As said before didn’t really know it was that big of thing. The old books I read and the hunting shows don’t really talk about it.

My problem is why some need to do or not do something because of someone else’s ethics or ethical problem with what they are doing.
when ethics really does mean any thing.
They change over time the change with location
They change with tridition
They change depending on scermatance

If they change there no true meaning and I will not for one do or not do something because of someone else’s ethics

Just like I will not flow the laws of Judisam why I am not a Jew. Just that simple
 
And yet the progressives say the same thing? :unsure: It’s almost as if human nature is pretty consistent across the board.

I like history, heritage, patriotism as much as the next guy but it’s a bit much to bring that stuff up here.

We have laws that you follow do you not? That’s the federal, state and local governments saying what you can/can’t do so please spare me the war/feud nonsense.
No it’s just historical
I actually think people from the south are a bit nuts. Don’t know if it’s the heat or bugs.

As far as laws. That’s laws not ethics.
Big difference there.
An to be 100 % honest. No I don’t go by all laws never have.
I actually said that in a early post
I will deal with the fall out if I have to with my law breaking.
 
After 14 pages of repeat posts I am laughing. Round and round.
:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

Will say same after next 14 pages. On and on.

MB
 
No it’s just historical
I actually think people from the south are a bit nuts. Don’t know if it’s the heat or bugs.

As far as laws. That’s laws not ethics.
Big difference there.
An to be 100 % honest. No I don’t go by all laws never have.
I actually said that in a early post
I will deal with the fall out if I have to with my law breaking.
Well we are talking about something that will be banned soon (hopefully). So yea legality is a valid topic for discussion.
 
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Well we are talking about something that will be banned soon (hopefully). So yea legality is a valid point.

There are crazy people everywhere if you haven’t noticed.
Hey if they out law it that’s a complete different thing.
And on the war fude thing I in no way meant anything in this post. Just a historical perspective on people here not liking being told what to do

Honestly I am a little out of tuch with modern life. My dad was the youngest of my grandpa kids
My grandpa was born in the 1880s
They looked at stuff different.
 
Judge not and you will not be judged…

I consider myself to be a hunter of over 50 years. But what gives me or any human the right to kill other living things? If we hunt and kill for anything other than survival, is it morally and/or ethically right? Wow! This would be especially true of us sport hunters. Taking that up a step, hunting for a trophy is even more unethical. Killing any living thing so one can have it stuffed to hang it on their wall and pound their chests about how superior they were to the dead, stuffed creature. But were we superior at all?

Considering even more, the noble and majestic African lion seems to be more important than a mouse or cockroach in one’s house. Aren’t they all creatures from the creator (God) just as we were? We don’t think twice about exterminating vermin in or near our homes.

Another comparison is beef from cattle raised/fed on a feed lot. Add to them is the veal from calves. Not all calves and mature cows are raised in family-friendly environments. Personally I “killed” an American bison for meat. It wasn’t much of a hunt at all. Was it unethical? Not to me, my family is still enjoying the bison meat. Now, if I went to a ranch in Texas or New Mexico and paid for the privilege of hunting bison for a couple days, would that be hunting if it had a 95% or better chance of success? Is that unethical?

The lion is an apex predator as are humans. In a fair fight, the lion will win every time. But man uses his intelligence to develop weapons superior to the lion’s vision, claws, teeth, strength and speed. Modern humans stack the odds in their favor. Most wild lions are hunted from a blind with a scoped high powered rifle. I am not discounting the huge amount of work require to slay and hang bait in multiple locations. Nor do I think that when a shoot-able lion appears on the bait it is necessarily very easy to shoot accurately. But a lion on bait doesn’t know a hunter is pursuing it. If it did, it would not even come close to the bait. Is that fair? If it is not fair how can it be ethical? Isn’t that like shooting another man in the back?

And who is doing the hunting? The PH plans the strategy of the hunt. The trackers execute most of the tactical portion up until the PH tells the “hunter” which animal to shoot. Then the hunter shoots and hopefully makes a clean kill. So, who is really hunting and how is just killing?

Captive bread lions (CBL) are bread to be hunted and killed. So are cows, chickens, pigs, and gosh know what else that most people, most hunters regularly consume. We eat meat from creatures that only exist to feed us. Other than PETA, who cares? How are those creatures any different than CBL lions? We do however follow the trackers pursuing those lions. I found that to be a satisfying hunt even it my chances at success were very near 100%.

Are CBL lions hunted or just slaughtered like beef cattle? Well, personally I would not try to place a captive bolt pistol ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol ) against a lion’s head. Chances are it would be snacking on my arm!

Are CBL lions trophies? They are for some hunters (yes hunters) but certainly not for the record books. For others, CBL lions will always be a stain on other “real” hunters. The difference is a matter of one’s perception.

Some subjects are best for people to agree to disagree. Otherwise it is so easy to judge others, to disrespect them for believing and practicing something different. I think that is the route of tribalism, hate, and many of the problems in this world.

As hunters we have 98% of all in common. Let’s not that the 2% difference divide us which will eventually lead to all of us being conquered by those who truly hate us for what we are and do.
 
The water is so muddy now! Apparently put and take is acceptable now. The pro-cbl crowd bemoan the antis but the damage is largely self inflicted. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: It’s wild to see such blatant support for something that is almost universally accepted as unethical. Personally I can’t wait for it to be banned. After that the cope will be that “RSA gave in to the antis”. The same thing they say about SCI and DSC etc. “they gave in to the antis”. If that’s not mental gymnastics I don’t know what is. Wild that so many people that are members of these orgs condone and participate in something that the orgs explicitly condemn.
 
@Doug Hamilton - SCI has NO specific or measured “Size requirements” for Fenced in game animals but they do state the animals must have terrain that provides “escape cover etc..”….unless there has been a recent change — I called and later emailed a person at SCI about 10 years ago and asked “Why does SCI not follow the same requirements as B&C and P & Y for recognizing trophies”? I was given a very thoughtful and detailed reply - which I respected but did not fully agree with. Also, any herd inside the fence does Not have to be ‘Self Sustaining’, friends that went to SA received Gold, Silver, & Bronze metals for everything they shot and none of their concessions were Self Sustaining - although some breeding might take place - new animals were being introduced regularly.
Regarding your last sentence “even completely free range animals will have a home range” - very true but even a whitetail deer Buck can disperse 20 miles in one direction from place of birth and 3 to 5+ miles or more in one direction during the rut and other animals range much farther —100s to 1000 square miles in their lifetimes. While I agree - the BIGGER the fence the more closely it replicates Free Range. One outfitter told me to remember in any Fenced concession THE FENCE is the most important part of the operation and it cannot be run as successfully or profitably with out a good & well maintained fence. If it could - no one would spend the $$ to put up miles of fence and maintain it.
Lastly, I am Not bashing hunting fenced concessions or even CBL - those decisions are up to the hunter and local laws. And many of my close friends hunt High Fence in Texas and SA — they enjoy it greatly.
As I said, I could be wrong, but the information I got was at a SCI booth at a sportsman's show two weeks ago. I cannot, and did not, however state that I know for a fact that it's completely true.
 
lol!!! You are 100% correct! To be clear I both like and greatly respect @375 fox!!!! I will definetly buy him a drink when I see him!!!!
@Rare Breed - better buy me “at least ONE” also….everyone becomes more agreeable after sitting down (or falling down) at a Bar !
 
As I said, I could be wrong, but the information I got was at a SCI booth at a sportsman's show two weeks ago. I cannot, and did not, however state that I know for a fact that it's completely true.
@Doug Hamilton - same here Doug, my last update from SCI was years ago and consisted of only a couple back & forth emails with one individual…so I’m Not sure either. SCI is very careful to accept more forms of hunting then B&C or P&Y - they do not have the same standards and SCI considers the wants and hunting practices of their Members.
For example, to get a record accepted into B&C there is significant information that must be submitted and that can include interviews, witness statements, photos etc.. (almost like a criminal investigation). Automatic disqualifies are: any High Fence, any violation of local Game Laws etc…. The most coveted World Record in ALL of Hunting is a “Typical Whitetail Buck” (currently held by Milo Hanson since 1993). When/if that record is broken the B&C “investigation” will exceed research done on JFK…. There are $ Millions of Dollars at stake !
 
Is he not also involved in game breeding in Texas? Seems like a conflict of interest to be against CBL. If you can visit a lion breeding facility then hold your head high after the hunt go for it, but it appears most are refusing to acknowledge there are other aspects to CBL than the tracking experience shown to a hunter.
I am a true hunter. This means I want to hunt anything and everything that is legal to hunt anywhere. The whole "I would never hunt X" does not apply to me. As long as it a challenging, ethical hunt then I am game!
 
But a lion on bait doesn’t know a hunter is pursuing it. If it did, it would not even come close to the bait. Is that fair?
Same as impala being stalked by lion on a waterhole. Impala has no idea. Those are the rules of the hunting game.
s hunters we have 98% of all in common. Let’s not that the 2% difference divide us which will eventually lead to all of us being conquered by those who truly hate us for what we are and do.
Fully agree!
 
I am a true hunter. This means I want to hunt anything and everything that is legal to hunt anywhere. The whole "I would never hunt X" does not apply to me. As long as it a challenging, ethical hunt then I am game!
So anyone who won’t hunt CBL isn’t a “true hunter”? Your arguments are laughable. Whether or not the hunt is ethical is not the question here… Weird that someone who is supposedly concerned about conservation and wildlife fully endorses put and take… I’m curious how you reconcile your support of sci/dsc with that belief. Orgs that both say you’re completely wrong
 

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