Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

[Wishfulthinker580]

Now we’ve entered the “it’s ok because it’s legal”/“the antis want us divided so let’s allow a free for all”/“ethics are purely subjective (post-modernism much?)” phase of the pro cbl argument…

It’s amazing that so many folks that I’m sure are paragons of virtue in every other area of live completely cast that aside when it comes to CBL. IMO it’s literally just the affordability that affects that change.. Do y’all not teach y’all’s kids about instant gratification being a bad thing and doing without?

 

[Rare Breed]

It only took three pages to get us where we always land

 

[STXhammer]

IMO, lions deserve to be completely free range and wild to be a true trophy.

If someone want to kill a CBL lion, it's fine by me, but I have no interest in taking one.



"Ethics" is up to the hunter.

We all have to draw our own lines now.

I don't want to hunt any African game in Texas, but I would, if someone else was paying the bill.



I also don't care to hunt "Dangerous Game", if there is no danger.

"Sniping" an elephant from 200M, holds no interest for me.



To each, his own, as far as I am concerned.

We all make our on "ethics."

I am not sure how many times elephants have been shot from 200 meters….

 

[dchum]

I think it’s a little like Bill Gates telling me I should drive a Prius and never fly. It’s just hard getting lectured by those that have been on multiple wild lion hunts. Probably should just pick a different topic to champion

No one in this thread has done a wild lion hunt.

It just that captive breading lions to be released hunted within the month is has no conservation value and goes against what we defend.

I can’t support it

 

[Hunt anything]

No one in this thread has done a wild lion hunt.

It just that captive breading lions to be released hunted within the month is has no conservation value and goes against what we defend.

I can’t support it

@Hunter-Habib has done several wild lion hunts and a CBL hunt . He did respond earlier.

 

[BJH65]

Those who are dead set against and those who are for CBL won’t be changing their minds anytime soon. Then there are those who are undecided or ambivalent. On our first Safari to Mozambique, the 1996 trophy fee for (wild) lioness was $1600. We never did connect on one but it was a target animal. Prices of course have drastically gone up even factoring in for inflation.

The SA government agreed to in April 2024 to phase out CBL breeding and CBL hunting.
What’s to become of the 60K approximate CBL presently in SA, euthanasia? Would it be advisable for the SA hunting outfitters to offer reduced priced hunts instead? Hunts offered to those who may find it an acceptable practice of hunting pre released lions? The CBL lions are in SA now, 60k of them. What do you propose they do with them?

Our bretheren hunters, PH’s, and outfitters in Africa are up against it. Do they have the right to manage the CBL in SA while this process plays out? It is my belief that they do have the right to manage CBL and for those who find it ethically acceptable can go hunt them and those that don’t will not hunt them. Let your conscience be your guide not the members of this forum.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I have not hunted African Lion, captive or otherwise. As a person who hasn't done either version, I am trying to understand why this version of captive bred animal hunt draws such disdain from many members on the site who seem otherwise relatively unbothered by other species being bred for hunting.

I know some members seem opposed to all versions of ranches/farms for hunting and only prefer free range wild animals, which I understand their position. But even with that, it seems that CBL hunts seem to draw a lot more heat. So I would assume there must be something different about the style of hunt or the practice that some members are more opposed to that I don't know about, that makes them so much worse in your eyes than Plains Game hunting on a ranch in South Africa.

Please help me to understand why CBL hunts are so much worse to you than PG preserve hunts.
Thanks

Would you want to shoot a cape buffalo that had an ear tag? Maybe buy a retired circus elephant and shoot it?
It isn't hard to figure out why people are opposed to killing an animal that has grown up being fed by humans. I wouldn't even shoot a decent blacktail buck with a bow that came into my yard in a subdivision out in the hills. The deer were completely wild but ignored people as it was safer than dealing with the mountain lions. I could have made the 10 yard bow shot from my back deck, but was unwilling to kill an animal that didn't have the whole hunter/prey scenario worked out.

 

[BJH65]

Would you want to shoot a cape buffalo that had an ear tag? Maybe buy a retired circus elephant and shoot it?
It isn't hard to figure out why people are opposed to killing an animal that has grown up being fed by humans. I wouldn't even shoot a decent blacktail buck with a bow that came into my yard in a subdivision out in the hills. The deer were completely wild but ignored people as it was safer than dealing with the mountain lions. I could have made the 10 yard bow shot from my back deck, but was unwilling to kill an animal that didn't have the whole hunter/prey scenario worked out.

I certainly can understand your position on CBL hunting but I cannot agree with your analogy. Have observed CBL enclosures during feeding, CBL are not benign towards humans like the animals you mentioned. Go ahead and enter a CBL enclosure. You would end up exactly like the carcasses that are fed to them, exposed rib cage and all. I cannot imagine a more horrifying way to die.

 

[375Fox]

Those who are dead set against and those who are for CBL won’t be changing their minds anytime soon. Then there are those who are undecided or ambivalent. On our first Safari to Mozambique, the 1996 trophy fee for (wild) lioness was $1600. We never did connect on one but it was a target animal. Prices of course have drastically gone up even factoring in for inflation.

The SA government agreed to in April 2024 to phase out CBL breeding and CBL hunting.
What’s to become of the 60K approximate CBL presently in SA, euthanasia? Would it be advisable for the SA hunting outfitters to offer reduced priced hunts instead? Hunts offered to those who may find it an acceptable practice of hunting pre released lions? The CBL lions are in SA now, 60k of them. What do you propose they do with them?

Our bretheren hunters, PH’s, and outfitters in Africa are up against it. Do they have the right to manage the CBL in SA while this process plays out? It is my belief that they do have the right to manage CBL and for those who find it ethically acceptable can go hunt them and those that don’t will not hunt them. Let your conscience be your guide not the members of this forum.

The official number is 8000-12000 so I have no idea where you came up with 60,000. However, your argument makes little sense. What did you think was going to happen to them? There are no CBL lions raised with pure intentions of reintroducing them to wild. They are all raised as livestock to be killed. It’s a farming practice disguised as hunting. I don’t think outfitters, PHs, and hunters should be associated with an activity merged with cub petting and the bone trade. The farmers were given 2 years notice to make exit plans. How many did? I do not know.

 

[375Fox]

Our bretheren hunters, PH’s, and outfitters in Africa are up against it. Do they have the right to manage the CBL in SA while this process plays out? It is my belief that they do have the right to manage CBL and for those who find it ethically acceptable can go hunt them and those that don’t will not hunt them. Let your conscience be your guide not the members of this forum.

You should also correct your statement. Your brethren hunters, PH, and outfitter might be up against in SOUTH AFRICA, but every other major hunting organization on the continent and world officially opposes the practice. Here is joint statement issued. Even PHASA split over the practice leaving PHASA and creating the custodians. “Let your conscience be the guide.” I have no idea what that means in the context you wrote it. It means overlooking a lot to justify the best price.

United Against Canned Lion Shooting |

Rowland Ward joins other conservation groups in taking a stand against the shooting of captive-bred lions. Rowland Ward Ltd. has united with several highly ...

dscnortheast.org

 

[Lee M]

My 3rd and last post on this. I should have not posted the first time… lol as it’s not my norm. Has anyone heard Ted Nugent comments or Kevin Costner line in Yellowstone? Both lines were something like farmers kill every vole, insect, worm, snake, mouse, etc to plow fields and grow crops to make veggies or tofu for people who protest against killing any animal. They also spray chemicals that do the same and also likely are detrimental to humans. But who gets to decide what animal counts? No one gave any disparaging remarks in the post/picture by Brickburn where pheasants were being released and likely ran into some #7.5 shot within 24 hours. Why not? Is it because anyone can hunt pheasants at a preserve for $150 and the elite can’t say i pay $5k for wild pheasants? Where is the line for raised animals and what animal is left or right of this? Someone please post this list. I don’t have the answer to this but know that the world is more complicated and conservation is not that simple. Again I’m not saying I’m for or against CBL and I’ve never considered it in 4 trips to Africa. But i do believe that those who have hunted wild lions or Bongo or who have gone on exotic hunts in countries outside of SA and have more $ don’t get more of a say on this. Sorry if that offends anyone. Do you eat meat, fish or have a leather belt, furniture, car seats, etc? Do you mount animals? Are cows sacred to you? We all have our thoughts on this and that’s great. But don’t die on your sword thinking your opinion is more valid than others.

 

[mark-hunter]

No one in this thread has done a wild lion hunt.

Now, this is significant. And good a illustration. Wild lion is expensive. That is why people turn to CBL hunting. For most this s the only way to complete big 5.

(BTW hunter Habib, hunted wild lion few times, he posted the pictures), but that is one hunter, on already 5 pages on this topic (not to mention earlier threads with same subject)

 

[375Fox]

My 3rd and last post on this. I should have not posted the first time… lol as it’s not my norm. Has anyone heard Ted Nugent comments or Kevin Costner line in Yellowstone? Both lines were something like farmers kill every vole, insect, worm, snake, mouse, etc to plow fields and grow crops to make veggies or tofu for people who protest against killing any animal. They also spray chemicals that do the same and also likely are detrimental to humans. But who gets to decide what animal counts? No one gave any disparaging remarks in the post/picture by Brickburn where pheasants were being released and likely ran into some #7.5 shot within 24 hours. Why not? Is it because anyone can hunt pheasants at a preserve for $150 and the elite can’t say i pay $5k for wild pheasants? Where is the line for raised animals and what animal is left or right of this? Someone please post this list. I don’t have the answer to this but know that the world is more complicated and conservation is not that simple. Again I’m not saying I’m for or against CBL and I’ve never considered it in 4 trips to Africa. But i do believe that those who have hunted wild lions or Bongo or who have gone on exotic hunts in countries outside of SA and have more $ don’t get more of a say on this. Sorry if that offends anyone. Do you eat meat, fish or have a leather belt, furniture, car seats, etc? Do you mount animals? Are cows sacred to you? We all have our thoughts on this and that’s great. But don’t die on your sword thinking your opinion is more valid than others.

When one side is trying to accelerate the demise of hunting tomorrow because it provides them a cheap opportunity today I think that is a problem. Yes, I think one side of this has a more valid opinion than others.

You might also consider rereading the thread. The pheasant photo was intended as a distraction and noted.

 

[BJH65]

The official number is 8000-12000 so I have no idea where you came up with 60,000. However, your argument makes little sense. What did you think was going to happen to them? There are no CBL lions raised with pure intentions of reintroducing them to wild. They are all raised as livestock to be killed. It’s a farming practice disguised as hunting. I don’t think outfitters, PHs, and hunters should be associated with an activity merged with cub petting and the bone trade. The farmers were given 2 years notice to make exit plans. How many did? I do not know.

I am uncertain if there is an exact number known? The 60k was a number I was told. You still didn’t answer, what to do with them? What is your solution? But after reading your response, you don’t have one. No shit, I am aware of the origins and feel it serves no good discussing it openly on a public hunting forum. My argument? I’m arguing nothing. I sympathize with the South Africans on how best to manage CBL.

What you think is irrelevant. There are more than a few SA outfitters, PH’s, landowners and hunters that are associated with CBL hunting, including PH’s who are members of AH in good standing. There are some highly respected AH members who have hunted CBL and whose opinions I respect immensely. With all your bloviating, you’re oddly quite about them aren’t you? You may judge them all accordingly. I’ll leave it to the South African’s to manage the CBL situation.

 

[375Fox]

I am uncertain if there is an exact number known? The 60k was a number I was told. You still didn’t answer, what to do with them? What is your solution? But after reading your response, you don’t have one. No shit, I am aware of the origins and feel it serves no good discussing it openly on a public hunting forum. My argument? I’m arguing nothing. I sympathize with the South Africans on how best to manage CBL.

What you think is irrelevant. There are more than a few SA outfitters, PH’s, landowners and hunters that are associated with CBL hunting, including PH’s who are members of AH in good standing. There are some highly respected AH members who have hunted CBL and whose opinions I respect immensely. With all your bloviating, you’re oddly quite about them aren’t you? You may judge them all accordingly. I’ll leave it to the South African’s to manage the CBL situation.

The movie Blood Lions put it in the open 9 years ago. The SAPA standards are available publicly on their website. The information is already openly available. Whether the lions are sold as shooting events or euthanized the result is the same. The farmers were given an opportunity to stop breeding and develop an exit plan 2 years ago. I can care less what they choose.

I had to look up bloviating as I’m sure you did in an effort to sound intelligent. If you think my arguments are empty it’s because you don’t like the only logical conclusion you can draw from them. I have very little respect for outfitters who make this a major part of their business. I don’t know how I could make that more clear. I’d have much more respect for members participating in CBL who openly stated they have no problem with put and take and cost is their #1 priority rather than make excuses to justify their hunts and CBL as conservation after the fact.

 

[BJH65]

You should also correct your statement. Your brethren hunters, PH, and outfitter might be up against in SOUTH AFRICA, but every other major hunting organization on the continent and world officially opposes the practice. Here is joint statement issued. Even PHASA split over the practice leaving PHASA and creating the custodians. “Let your conscience be the guide.” I have no idea what that means in the context you wrote it. It means overlooking a lot to justify the best price.

United Against Canned Lion Shooting |

Rowland Ward joins other conservation groups in taking a stand against the shooting of captive-bred lions. Rowland Ward Ltd. has united with several highly ...

dscnortheast.org

You sure like to read into things. I will be correcting nothing. Nothing to do with CBL. I recognize and understand that the African PH’s way of life can be difficult and I’m sympathetic to that, nothing more, nothing less. I think you know exactly what I meant but let me spell it out as clear as possible : There are those who find it acceptable and ethical to hunt CBL. They have a clear conscience. There are some that find it unethical and the practice is unacceptable to them. You may share your opinion, but you seem to have this habit of dictating.

 

[375Fox]

You sure like to read into things. I will be correcting nothing. Nothing to do with CBL. I recognize and understand that the African PH’s way of life can be difficult and I’m sympathetic to that, nothing more, nothing less. I think you know exactly what I meant but let me spell it out as clear as possible : There are those who find it acceptable and ethical to hunt CBL. They have a clear conscience. There are some that find it unethical and the practice is unacceptable to them. You may share your opinion, but you seem to have this habit of dictating.

I don’t however have a habit of lying. You expanded captive lion numbers to 60,000 for effect and expanded South Africa to Africa for the same effect. I’ll guess you chose not to read the joint statement from conservation organizations because it doesn’t align with your current viewpoint?

 

[BJH65]

The movie Blood Lions put it in the open 9 years ago. The SAPA standards are available publicly on their website. The information is already openly available. Whether the lions are sold as shooting events or euthanized the result is the same. The farmers were given an opportunity to stop breeding and develop an exit plan 2 years ago. I can care less what they choose.

I had to look up bloviating as I’m sure you did in an effort to sound intelligent. If you think my arguments are empty it’s because you don’t like the only logical conclusion you can draw from them. I have very little respect for outfitters who make this a major part of their business. I don’t know how I could make that more clear. I’d have much more respect for members participating in CBL who openly stated they have no problem with put and take and cost is their #1 priority rather than make excuses to justify their hunts and CBL as conservation after the fact.

No, I didn’t have to look up bloviating, I watch O’Reilly occasionally, nor do I claim to be intelligent, I’m more the knuckle dragging type. I get it, you feel compelled to strike back because you felt it diminished you, not my intent. Likely, there will be a conclusion to CBL hunting and it will be a distance memory and then forgotten about.

 

[BJH65]

I don’t however have a habit of lying. You expanded captive lion numbers to 60,000 for effect and expanded South Africa to Africa for the same effect. I’ll guess you chose not to read the joint statement from conservation organizations because it doesn’t align with your current viewpoint?

No, you’re just an insufferable ass.

 

[Uncontrolled_round_feed]

Whenever someone says they shot a captive bred lion, in your mind you must hear it as ‘farmed’
That is the difference
All the arguments (it’s affordable, it’s thrilling, what will happen to the remaining farmed animals) fade into the background once it’s obvious what it is to anyone with discernment
For the rest, I can explain it to you but I can’t understand it for you.