Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

Respectfully I doubt the theory that all areas that can sustain wild lions, already have wild lion population, and other areas are just habitat loss.
The former natural lion range is just too big. Habitat loss is one factor, but loss in numbers of prey species, poaching and historical uncontrolled hunting is another thing, and I am pretty sure there are places where lions can be reintroduced. The former range area is just too big to be defined as habitat loss.


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It has the same meaning to me. There might be land available but the ecosystem is gone and unlikely to ever be replaced. Where there are people and cattle and unstable governments Lions aren’t going to be welcome. If a newly formed and protected national park should want lions and have the funding to do it, there are lions available in places like Bubye Valley in Zimbabwe and Big 5 reserves in South Africa likely several others with excess cats.
 
It has the same meaning to me. There might be land available but the ecosystem is gone and unlikely to ever be replaced. Where there are people and cattle and unstable governments Lions aren’t going to be welcome.
I would guess: local governments incentive and favorable laws missing for wild lion conservation. Do we agree on that?

With the rate of present habitat loss (habitat loss of your description) we can assume in some future there will be no habitat left. The rate of habitat loss in last 100 years is alarming and irreversible.

In that case the choice for hunters and eventual evolution of hunting ethics is following:
1. No lions at all to hunt in wild.
2. Lions as CBL, only.
3. Lions in zoo's and national parks (no hunting)

Whatever will be, will be. But that is also part of why I see CBL practices having a potential to save the species. Ban CBL, and this option is gone for ever.
 
I would guess: local governments incentive and favorable laws missing for wild lion conservation. Do we agree on that?

With the rate of present habitat loss (habitat loss of your description) we can assume in some future there will be no habitat left. The rate of habitat loss in last 100 years is alarming and irreversible.

In that case the choice for hunters and eventual evolution of hunting ethics is following:
1. No lions at all to hunt in wild.
2. Lions as CBL, only.
3. Lions in zoo's and national parks (no hunting)

Whatever will be, will be. But that is also part of why I see CBL practices having a potential to save the species. Ban CBL, and this option is gone for ever.
Unless Kruger Park, Etosha Park, and others were to disappear I see no possibility of lions disappearing and the species needing saved. It’s an unfortunate reality as human population grows land lions have available will shrink. Likely down to national parks, government safari areas, and large private reserves, but I do not see raising lions as livestock in small enclosures as an acceptable alternative.
 
All being said, all we need now is to see is what the future will bring to wild and CBL lion population and hunting.
 
I’ve hunted one CBL (Captive Bred Lion), but all the other lions which I’ve hunted were the wild specimens in Tanzania. Aside from hunting hippopotamus bulls on land in the sugarcane fields at night, hunting wild lion (especially an on foot stalk) ranks as my favorite form of African dangerous game hunting. Hopefully, I will be back for another very soon.

Personally speaking, CBL hunting is just not for me and can never compare to hunting truly wild lion. Not in a million years. But (without boasting or trying to show off about my financial status) this is only because I can afford to hunt wild lion once every few years. A luxury which not every hunter can afford (and we must always strive to think about our fellow hunters including those who are on tighter budgets than we are). For them, a properly regulated CBL hunt comes reasonably close to the real thing (although obviously not entirely).

But if somebody goes around saying that hunting CBL lions is completely risk-free and akin to shooting fish in a barrel… Well, then they have absolutely no business talking about lion hunting in the first place. Unfortunately, the old adage goes “The most ignorant voices are the loudest”. If you ask me, CBL hunting isn’t the biggest threat to the future of hunting. It’s self righteous hunters with a “Holier than thou” attitude. And the wealthier they are, the more condescending they are towards forms of hunting aimed at the more budget oriented hunters. Somebody here said “The lower the price, the more flexible people's perception of ethics become.”. Well, that works both ways. The wealthier a person is, the more stringent their perception of ethics seems to become. So all that serves to prove, is that we’re each only as ethical as our budget permits.

If you can afford it, go for a wild lion hunt.
BUT
with a proper outfitter, a CBL lion hunt can be a very exciting one (although there are plenty of unethical outfits that conduct CBL hunts in the most depraved of manners). Feel free to drop me a line if you’d like to get in touch with my outfitter. I assure you that you will have a very regal time.

P.S: CBL lions do have certain behavioral differences than truly wild lion. But this not not make them much less dangerous.
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Argument against CBL to my knowledge are not and never have been based on the false premise that they aren’t exciting or dangerous hunts…
 
Argument against CBL to my knowledge are not and never have been based on the false premise that they aren’t exciting or dangerous hunts…
I’ve seen a few comments in past threads where people were claiming that CBL lions are completely harmless. If I recall correctly, it was during a hunting report of @Rare Breed ‘s most recent lion hunt.

P.S: If someone has something against CBL hunting purely out of principle against how the lions are raised, then I totally respect that.
 
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If the difference between CBL hunting and wild lions is as big as the difference between released and wild pheasant hunting I don’t know why anyone has interest in CBL.

I have hunted hundreds of wild and released pheasant. I’ll still use released birds to train/expose a young dog but can’t imagine paying money to hunt them for any other reason.
 
Personally speaking, CBL hunting is just not for me and can never compare to hunting truly wild lion

Have done it also. It was not for me. God willing one day I'll do it over but then a truly wild lion.

The stalking part is great. But the rest around it, not so much. I'll leave it at that because this is a public forum. No regrets because that is not how I live my live.

I enjoyed all the animals I took on that trip more than the lion. But sometimes you'll have to make your own mistakes, like I did to really find out.
 
I have not hunted African Lion, captive or otherwise. As a person who hasn't done either version, I am trying to understand why this version of captive bred animal hunt draws such disdain from many members on the site who seem otherwise relatively unbothered by other species being bred for hunting.

I know some members seem opposed to all versions of ranches/farms for hunting and only prefer free range wild animals, which I understand their position. But even with that, it seems that CBL hunts seem to draw a lot more heat. So I would assume there must be something different about the style of hunt or the practice that some members are more opposed to that I don't know about, that makes them so much worse in your eyes than Plains Game hunting on a ranch in South Africa.

Please help me to understand why CBL hunts are so much worse to you than PG preserve hunts.
Thanks
You ask a very good question. Why is it ok to breed a sable or a whitetail and release for hunting and not a lion? If it were not for breeding operations there would be no sable in South Africa and we would only have small antlered whitetail (at least where I live).
CBL give people a chance to hunt a lion who simply can not afford a $100,000 hunt.
This one may get lively!
 
If the difference between CBL hunting and wild lions is as big as the difference between released and wild pheasant hunting I don’t know why anyone has interest in CBL.

I have hunted hundreds of wild and released pheasant. I’ll still use released birds to train/expose a young dog but can’t imagine paying money to hunt them for any other reason.
That image was posted only to distract people. Conflating similar but different issues
 
I’ve hunted one CBL (Captive Bred Lion), but all the other lions which I’ve hunted were the wild specimens in Tanzania. Aside from hunting hippopotamus bulls on land in the sugarcane fields at night, hunting wild lion (especially an on foot stalk) ranks as my favorite form of African dangerous game hunting. Hopefully, I will be back for another very soon.

Personally speaking, CBL hunting is just not for me and can never compare to hunting truly wild lion. Not in a million years. But (without boasting or trying to show off about my financial status) this is only because I can afford to hunt wild lion once every few years. A luxury which not every hunter can afford (and we must always strive to think about our fellow hunters including those who are on tighter budgets than we are). For them, a properly regulated CBL hunt comes reasonably close to the real thing (although obviously not entirely).

But if somebody goes around saying that hunting CBL lions is completely risk-free and akin to shooting fish in a barrel… Well, then they have absolutely no business talking about lion hunting in the first place. Unfortunately, the old adage goes “The most ignorant voices are the loudest”. If you ask me, CBL hunting isn’t the biggest threat to the future of hunting. It’s self righteous hunters with a “Holier than thou” attitude. And the wealthier they are, the more condescending they are towards forms of hunting aimed at the more budget oriented hunters. Somebody here said “The lower the price, the more flexible people's perception of ethics become.”. Well, that works both ways. The wealthier a person is, the more stringent their perception of ethics seems to become. So all that serves to prove, is that we’re each only as ethical as our budget permits.

If you can afford it, go for a wild lion hunt.
BUT
with a proper outfitter, a CBL lion hunt can be a very exciting one (although there are plenty of unethical outfits that conduct CBL hunts in the most depraved of manners). Feel free to drop me a line if you’d like to get in touch with my outfitter. I assure you that you will have a very regal time.

P.S: CBL lions do have certain behavioral differences than truly wild lion. But this not not make them much less dangerous.
As always, @Hunter-Habib you are the voice of wisdom based on a lifetime of experience.

I have hunted two CBL lionesses and enjoyed both hunts. Those were tracking hunts where on the second one, we found lioness tracks on top of ours. She knew we were tracking her and decided to hunt us hunters! While traversing through areas with brush tall and thick enough for lions to hide within 3 meters of the lioness trail, I wasn’t scared but that lioness darn sure had my attention! Certainly tracking a truly wild lion would be as or probably more dangerous!

The anti climax of CBL hunts are lions be they wild or CBL have NO fear of humans. At 50 meters where any lion could truely be dangerous, a CBL sits or lays almost motionless piercing the hunter with their amber daggers of eyes. For anyone with above average shooting ability, the kill shot is pretty easy. Let me add that only a darn fool would prevoke any lion to charge. Sucide by lion would not be enjoyable...

Aren’t most wild lion hunts conducted using bait? Now, sitting quietly in a blind close to lion bait is a certainly an art, but if conducted correctly is there any danger? Perhaps not so long as the hunter delivers a bullet into the lion’s kill zone. But, if a hunter flinches on the shot, or the lion moves as the hunter is squeezing the trigger, then there is a wounded lion for the PH to “sort out”.

Personally, I prefer tracking hunts. I sit in my blind for many hours over many days to slay a couple whitetails every November. After a couple days, well it gets a little boring. Now, there is a time and place for setting up an ambush to bushwhack an animal. For me, it is satisfying to track an animal and figure out where the animal WILL be and go forward to set up an ambush there.

So, to each their own form of lion hunting. Wild lion if one can afford them and if they enjoy many nights in a blind waiting, and waiting. Or, a properly executed CBL hunt from a reputable PH outfitter for the rest of us.

Certainly the longer a CBL is feeding itself, the likelihood of a challenging hunt will increase with time. But that increase may not be proportional. How long does a CBL take to “go wild”? A few days perhaps to reach maybe 75% (just a guess). Afterward, CBL’s slowly become more wild over the next days and weeks. A study of such based on a sample set of 50 would be very interesting. A hypothesis could be CBL’s go 75% wild in an average of three days with a rapidly decreasing rate over the following days and weeks. A second hypothesis could be CBL’s only on average only reach a 95% wild state after three months.

How do we judge if a lion is truly wild? What criteria do we use? How do we quantify those criteria? What about smart and dumb lions? Certainly even wild lions have differing degrees of intelligence.

So there are many variables to wild lions and CBL’s. Hunting each also has many variables. What about the outfitter? Is the PH ethical or not? Based on what degree of ethical behavior? Gosh knows. Once again, to each their own.

Hunt safely, shoot well.
 
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You ask a very good question. Why is it ok to breed a sable or a whitetail and release for hunting and not a lion? If it were not for breeding operations there would be no sable in South Africa and we would only have small antlered whitetail (at least where I live).
CBL give people a chance to hunt a lion who simply can not afford a $100,000 hunt.
This one may get lively!
Respectfully that is not really the discussion I think. But to go with the analogy. Raising the whitetail or sable in a small pen, as in not being a habitat to live in and then release it 72 hours before the hunt begins.

Then also being the only whitetail or sable in that area. This would be a better example.

I make no argument before or against CBL hunting but people have to know the facts before going the CBL route. CBL hunting is often more romanticized than what actually does take place.
 
You ask a very good question. Why is it ok to breed a sable or a whitetail and release for hunting and not a lion? If it were not for breeding operations there would be no sable in South Africa and we would only have small antlered whitetail (at least where I live).
CBL give people a chance to hunt a lion who simply can not afford a $100,000 hunt.
This one may get lively!

I grew up in Texas and think the way whitetails have been handled there is absurd. Judging the health of a herd by antler size makes no sense to me.

I choose not to hunt animals that are “bred” or released for hunting. I support the capturing of animals that procreated naturally and relocating them to other areas where they can procreate naturally to help genetic diversity or reestablish populations.

Plenty areas in Texas got better deer numbers and quality without breeding and releasing. Where I was born north of Abilene had hardly any deer when I was a kid it now has lots and not a lot of high fence. It is more because people moved away from cotton and into grain. They also have decent goose hunting now for the same reason. Same where my cousins ranch is further west and they even have a decent number of mule deer now and I’ve never heard of anyone releasing deer near there.

I watched the second video posted above and would have no interest hunting any animal raised in those densities or manner.
 
You ask a very good question. Why is it ok to breed a sable or a whitetail and release for hunting and not a lion? If it were not for breeding operations there would be no sable in South Africa and we would only have small antlered whitetail (at least where I live).
CBL give people a chance to hunt a lion who simply can not afford a $100,000 hunt.
This one may get lively!
False equivalencies abound.

Antler size? Really? What value is there if they’re all behind your fence?

Of all the unnecessary and ridiculous things in the hunting world, high fence white tail in the US is definitely near the top of the list.
 
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