Why all the 6.5 Creedmoor Hate?

[CBH Australia]

I'll take your 6.5CM and your 270, and raise you my .280 Rem.

You could Ackley improve that and make good better.

 

[colorado]

Or throw my 270 Weatherby into the equation

 

[MS 9x56]

Or just admit you can’t improve on perfection and get a Mauser in 7x57.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I think it’s a matter of it doing something that knowledgeable people could already do, wrapping it up with good marketing (and support) and making it easy for someone who isn't all that into shooting to shoot a 6.5.

Used to be, shooting a 6.5 was at least a little bit esoteric in the US. The Creedmoor let people into the club without paying the initiation fee, so to speak.

 

[Jyoung705]

If I could have only 1 rifle in a 6.5 it would be the original 6.5x54 in a 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle built before 1924 with no scope but. Lyman swing away peep sight. Load them with 160 grain roundnose and outfit the safari for pachyderms.

Do you know a fair bit about the 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer? I have one but know nothing

 

[skydiver386]

Also known as the 6.5 Man-bunn.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Do you know a fair bit about the 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer? I have one but know nothing

You may find knowledge on this thread: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/mannlicher-schönauer-prewar-m1900-m1903-m1905-m1908-m1910-m1924-m1925-or-high-velocity.47277/

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I've personally got nothing against the caliber. Many hunters often cite a love for the "Classics" when asked why they dislike a "New" caliber. But a word on this subject.

Today's classics were also the new kids on the block, once upon a time. Did Victorian era hunters like Sir Samuel White Baker or Frederick Courteney Sealous hold on to their muzzle loaders when breechloaders came into the scene during the 1870s ? Did Arthur Henry Neumann hold on to his 10 gauge Holland & Holland double rifle when the .450 Nitro Express entered the scene ? Did Jim Corbett hold on to his .500 Black Powder Express when the .450/400 Nitro Express entered the scene ? Did Major Percy Powell Cotton hold on to his 8 bore when the .600 Nitro Express come into the scene ?

What about Karamojo Bell who was one of the first hunters to use bolt action rifles in a scene that was (up until then) dominated exclusively by double rifles ? Or Commander David Enderby Blunt, Tony Dyer and Harry Selby who made great names for themselves with the .416 Rigby in a hunting scene dominated exclusively by double rifles up until then ?

Did any of you gents know that when the .30-06 Springfield was first being marketed to American deer hunters, many of the contributors on Outdoor Life magazine were complaining about how the .30-06 Springfield is too "Newfangled & Reduntant" compared to the tried-and-true .30-30 Winchester (then known as the .30 WCF) ? Just imagine that.

It could be argued that all the post World War II caliber that entered the hunting scene... are superflous- The .338 Winchester Magnum, .458 Winchester Magnum, .300 Weatherby Magnum, .378 Weatherby Magnum, .460 Weatherby Magnum (okay fine, I despise that one but for entirely different reasons), 7mm Remington Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, 7mm-08 Remington, .458 Lott, .416 Remington Magnum, .500/416 Nitro Express, the .450 Rigby Rimless Magnum (to name a few).

Yet what appalls me is that hunters will willingly welcome some new calibers on the market while turning their noses up at others. Here is just one example of the hypocrisy- People look down upon the 6.5 Creedmoor because the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser is the original which can already accomplish whatever the 6.5 Creedmoor can do. So why is it that the .300 Winchester Magnum is so widely accepted internationally, when it was preceded by the .300 Holland & Holland Magnum which can already accomplish whatever the .300 Winchester Magnum can do ? Double standards much ?

So if somebody wants to hunt with a 6.5 Creedmoor, I say good for them. A close friend of mine once quipped "Only hipster kids hunt with a 6.5 Creedmoor". I replied "The very fact that they are still hunting at all in today's woke environment is God's blessing".

And yes. Some coarse fool dare devils try using this caliber for hunting things bigger than what the caliber was intended for. That's the operator's fault. Not the caliber's. The entire reason why the .375 caliber was made the minimum legal bore size for dangerous game in most African countries (starting with Kenya in 1958) was because people like Eleanor O Connor (who I harbor a great deal of respect for, by the way) were trying to use calibers like the .30-06 Springfield for everything up to elephant (which resulted in more than a few hunters getting badly or even fatally gored/mauled by wounded dangerous game). Yet nobody (very sensibly) thinks to blame the .30-06 Springfield for those tragedies. They all wisely point their fingers at the buffoons who decided to try their luck against big game with calibers not designed for their hunting.

Well, that's my take on the subject anyway.

P.S: I don't own a 6.5 Creedmoor and have no interest in ever owning one. But I'm totally opposed to those who speak out against this caliber on mere principle.

 

[mark-hunter]

@Hunter-Habib
I think that all post ww2 calibers you listed were new in their performance and found very good place in hunting world for them, making them classic
By early 2000, hunting world had everything from .17 up to .700, in increments of 0.5 mm, and case capacity plus additional rimmed versions.

Then, enter 6.5 CM, when there already is 6.5x55, and 6.5x57.
Okey, so here it is. New baby is born. But nothing revolutionary.

Then you have "grumpy old men".
That would be older generation of seasoned hunters. Old men, sometimes hardly accept new things. But they also remember good old things.
That makes conservative part of market.

While in Europe, making of new caliber is exercise reserved for renowned factories and carefull planning and marketing strategy (30R blaser, or 8x55 blaser come to mind, recently), in America (much liberal in its gun laws, and tradition of home gunsmithing) invention of various wild catters is in dozens. But many new calibers dont live long enough, to make history.

But also, this means American market is flooded with caliber options, and factories always need something new to sell. USA market is quite saturated with calibers and guns, in last 100 years of good old 2/a.

In this kind of environment 6.5 CM is created.
When something new is needed.

CM means creedmoor, an old rifle range where first long range (1000 yards) matches were organised by the end of 19th century, giving a taste of extremely effective, and accurate long range cartrdidge, just by its name.

Marketing policy followed, gun writers followed, and new star is born, but in reality, nothing more then good old 6.5 Swedish.

But old generation of hunters and rifle owner have memory of elephant, and they know it is really nothing new. 6.5 CM came just when old 6.5s were becoming a bit forgotten, which is the first reason which created a space for marketing of new product.
6.5 CM, mainly accepted by younger generation (though not exclusively) who never used older 6.5s and old generation remains at least a bit more "scepetical" (though mot exclusively).

And new internet debate is born!
6.5 CM for who, and for what, is it better then old 6.5, etc. ?

Marketing is strong force, once when 6.5 CM hype caught up, followed also good ammunition supply on the market, with all kinds of bullets, from hunting to match and low drag, with high BC.
Once you have established a new caliber, with excellent ammunition market options, you create popularity. Today there is more 6.5 CM ammo available, then for 6.5x55, or 6.5x57.

But, mind: old 6.5x55 is Swedish "national" caliber to hunt moose (means effective). And it was a sniper caliber. (means accurate)
In todays metallic cartridge ammunitions', is hard to get something really new. But marketing ways can make it new.

I was considering for a while 6.5 CM, for target purpose. But on the end I decided to stick with 308 win, for the ranges that I shoot targets. (up to 600 meters)
And interestingly for longer distances, new wonder kid in open class is 284 winchester, 7mm class.

I see this cartridge, more as a marketing success, then a ballistic break through, but as far as I am concerned it is welcome to stay with us.

In short this would be my overview on social acceptance of 6.5 CM, in our small gun owners world.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Hunter-Habib
I think that all post ww2 calibers you listed were new in their performance and found very good place in hunting world for them, making them classic
By early 2000, hunting world had everything from .17 up to .700, in increments of 0.5 mm, and case capacity plus additional rimmed versions.

Then, enter 6.5 CM, when there already is 6.5x55, and 6.5x57.
Okey, so here it is. New baby is born. But nothing revolutionary.

Then you have "grumpy old men".
That would be older generation of seasoned hunters. Old men, sometimes hardly accept new things. But they also remember good old things.
That makes conservative part of market.

While in Europe, making of new caliber is exercise reserved for renowned factories and carefull planning and marketing strategy (30R blaser, or 8x55 blaser come to mind, recently), in America (much liberal in its gun laws, and tradition of home gunsmithing) invention of various wild catters is in dozens. But many new calibers dont live long enough, to make history.

But also, this means American market is flooded with caliber options, and factories always need something new to sell. USA market is quite saturated with calibers and guns, in last 100 years of good old 2/a.

In this kind of environment 6.5 CM is created.
When something new is needed.

CM means creedmoor, an old rifle range where first long range (1000 yards) matches were organised by the end of 19th century, giving a taste of extremely effective, and accurate long range cartrdidge, just by its name.

Marketing policy followed, gun writers followed, and new star is born, but in reality, nothing more then good old 6.5 Swedish.

But old generation of hunters and rifle owner have memory of elephant, and they know it is really nothing new. 6.5 CM came just when old 6.5s were becoming a bit forgotten, which is the first reason which created a space for marketing of new product.
6.5 CM, mainly accepted by younger generation (though not exclusively) who never used older 6.5s and old generation remains at least a bit more "scepetical" (though mot exclusively).

And new internet debate is born!
6.5 CM for who, and for what, is it better then old 6.5, etc. ?

Marketing is strong force, once when 6.5 CM hype caught up, followed also good ammunition supply on the market, with all kinds of bullets, from hunting to match and low drag, with high BC.
Once you have established a new caliber, with excellent ammunition market options, you create popularity. Today there is more 6.5 CM ammo available, then for 6.5x55, or 6.5x57.

But, mind: old 6.5x55 is Swedish "national" caliber to hunt moose (means effective). And it was a sniper caliber. (means accurate)
In todays metallic cartridge ammunitions', is hard to get something really new. But marketing ways can make it new.

I was considering for a while 6.5 CM, for target purpose. But on the end I decided to stick with 308 win, for the ranges that I shoot targets. (up to 600 meters)
And interestingly for longer distances, new wonder kid in open class is 284 winchester, 7mm class.

I see this cartridge, more as a marketing success, then a ballistic break through, but as far as I am concerned it is welcome to stay with us.

In short this would be my overview on social acceptance of 6.5 CM, in our small gun owners world.

That is true, @mark-hunter . The 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't offer anything new to the table. And your own assessment about the "Grumpy old men" certainly holds a lot of weight. My father (for instance) is a die hard advocate of paper cased shotgun cartridges. He always thinks that they're far superior to plastic cased shotgun shells, no matter how much I've been trying to get him to use plastic shotgun shells over the years.

But answer this: Why is the .300 Winchester Magnum so widely accepted by the "Grumpy old men" even though it offers no ballistic advantage (to my knowledge) over the original .300 Holland & Holland Magnum ?

 

[CoElkHunter]

That is true, @mark-hunter . The 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't offer anything new to the table. And your own assessment about the "Grumpy old men" certainly holds a lot of weight. My father (for instance) is a die hard advocate of paper cased shotgun cartridges. He always thinks that they're far superior to plastic cased shotgun shells, no matter how much I've been trying to get him to use plastic shotgun shells over the years.

But answer this: Why is the .300 Winchester Magnum such widely accepted by the "Grumpy old men" even though it offers no ballistic advantage (to my knowledge) over the original .300 Holland & Holland Magnum ?

I would guess the availability of factory .300WM versus .300 H&H ammo would be the reason?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I would guess the availability of factory .300WM versus .300 H&H ammo would be the reason?

My point exactly ! So the acceptance of this caliber stems from a market induced situation (availability) rather than any ballistic advantage over the .300 Holland & Holland Magnum.

Similarly, you have the identical scenario with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Factory loaded ammunition offerings are more diverse (on the current market) than the 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser or the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher Schoenauer. T6.5 Creedmoor isn't ballistically any superior or inferior to either of these calibers. But is only popular on the market now, because ammunition and rifles for it are widely available.

 

[Warbeast]

Or just admit you can’t improve on perfection and get a Mauser in 7x57.

All you need was already made 125 years ago

 

[mauserhunter]

I like the cartridge it's a nice size for medium sized game at real world hunting distances, I've never owned one I'd prefer other 6.5s that can push the same bullet at similar speeds. The Mann Bunn guys where quite annoying for some time and they seem to forget that they were so. I don't have enough fingers or toes for all the times I've Hurd there cult like list why the cm is the best that ever way and all others should throw there non 6.5cm guns in the garbage. For many cm guys it was there first relatively flat shooting cartridge and just because it shoots a little flatter then the 308 it was 1000 times better, then the 6mms were showing up again and put the 6.5cm in its place and now there keep quiet mostly now.

 

[CoElkHunter]

My point exactly ! So the acceptance of this caliber stems from a market induced situation (availability) rather than any ballistic advantage over the .300 Holland & Holland Magnum.

Similarly, you have the identical scenario with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Factory loaded ammunition offerings are more diverse than the 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser or the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher Schoenauer. T6.5 Creedmoor isn't ballistically any superior or inferior to either of these calibers. But is only popular on the market now, because ammunition and rifles for it are widely available.

IMO, yes. In 2019BC (before Covid), one could find 180gr. .300WM Remington Core Lokt ammo for $26/box at Wal Mart all day, every day. A little more at your LGS. Your LGS MAY have had .300 H&H ammo for sale or maybe not. In mid 2020 of course, one couldn't find almost any factory HUNTING ammo in any cartridge, except......... you guessed it, the 6.5 Creedmoor! Many boxes of it were available at my LG stores when nothing else was. One could also find a factory hunting rifle in any cartridge you wanted, as long as it was chambered for the 6.5 Creedmoor. So now you have all these Creedmoor rifle owners that need the ammo for them. I joke about it on here, but I have nothing against the Creedmoor cartridge for hunting as long as it is used within its ballistic limits. I just feel we were played by Hornady and their partnered rifle manufacturers during Covid and the initial ammo shortage. So. I'll never own a Creedmoor for that reason. I know that's silly, but we all have to stand for something or we'll fall for anything. Not my original quote.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

IMO, yes. In 2019BC (before Covid), one could find 180gr. .300WM Remington Core Lokt ammo for $26/box at Wal Mart all day, every day. A little more at your LGS. Your LGS MAY have had .300 H&H ammo for sale or maybe not. In mid 2020 of course, one couldn't find almost any factory HUNTING ammo in any cartridge, except......... you guessed it, the 6.5 Creedmoor! Many boxes of it were available at my LG stores when nothing else was. One could also find a factory hunting rifle in any cartridge you wanted, as long as it was chambered for the 6.5 Creedmoor. So now you have all these Creedmoor rifle owners that need the ammo for them. I joke about it on here, but I have nothing against the Creedmoor cartridge for hunting as long as it is used within its ballistic limits. I just feel we were played by Hornady and their partnered rifle manufacturers during Covid and the initial ammo shortage. So. I'll never own a Creedmoor for that reason. I know that's silly, but we all have to stand for something or we'll fall for anything. Not my original quote.

Hey, nothing silly at all ! I'll never own a 6.5 Creedmoor either. I'm a 7x57mm Mauser and .30-06 Springfield man through & through.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I like the cartridge it's a nice size for medium sized game at real world hunting distances, I've never owned one I'd prefer other 6.5s that can push the same bullet at similar speeds. The Mann Bunn guys where quite annoying for some time and they seem to forget that they were so. I don't have enough fingers or toes for all the times I've Hurd there cult like list why the cm is the best that ever way and all others should throw there non 6.5cm guns in the garbage. For many cm guys it was there first relatively flat shooting cartridge and just because it shoots a little flatter then the 308 it was 1000 times better, then the 6mms were showing up again and put the 6.5cm in its place and now there keep quiet mostly now.

I would also imagine the mild recoil for especially new shooters/hunters might have something to do with it? I don't know as I've never shot a Creedmoor.

 

[MS 9x56]

My son owns a 6.5 creedmore in a gorgeous rifle and he likes the 6.5. I really have nothing against the man bun I am just a lover of the classics. It really offers no ballistic advantage over other 6.5 caliber rounds. As noted previously availability is its real advantage.

 

[Huntersedge]

Do you mean the 6.5 Needs More?
It’s the best long range paper killer around.
World class for coyote and prairie dogs. It’s a good deer gun.

All joking aside.
It’s not great for larger game in America.
You can kill an elk with a .22 but that doesn’t make it the best tool for the job.

The negative attitude towards the 6.5 NM is from all the inappropriate hype that it works great on Big Game.

I’m old school 30-06 and 300 for the Win on big game.

 

[JakeH]

Most of the “in real life” hate I’ve seen for the 6.5 CM has come from three places:

1. People trying to shoot game well past its intended range as a hunting round.
2. People using the wrong choice of bullet for hunting.
3. People that use the “power” of a cartridge as a substitute for marksmanship.

The Creedmoor is a fantastic deer cartridge, just as good as any of the other various 6.5mm and 7mm cartridges on the market (magnums not withstanding). Use it within its effect range as a hunting cartridge, with the proper bullet choice for what you’re hunting and it’ll serve you well.