Which to choose for clays/dove

[Ridge Runner]

If I could only take one of my shotguns in the dove field and clay course it would be my 1982 1100 12ga with fixed improved cylinder. It will eat any shell you feed it flawlessly.

I love my SBE2, it's a great all around shotgun. It suffers on the clay course just like my old Auto 5's with today's weak target loads. The cheap target loads just don't have enough ass to make the inertia or recoil driven guns run right.

Only because I showed up at the trap club with 4 boxes of the cheap stuff for a little practice and to learn more about getting started in trap shooting. This is what I learned on my first day.

With exceptions of new/ beginning shooters and those wanting a little practice before dove and upland bird hunting, every competition shooter that used reloads, as they either reloaded their own shells or had a person they knew and trusted to reload shells for them. Those few that shot factory ammo shot the better quality ammo. No one shot the cheap stuff.

Later on discussions on the use and effectiveness of 9, 10, and 11 shot on clays. And the use of mixed shot, hybrids, as the trend of combining 7, 7 1/2, and 8 shot with 9 or 10 shot. The 11 shot didn't work out as expected, it was too small often unbroken clays were found having multiple holes in them from the 11 shot where 7, 7 1/2, or 8 shot would have broken the clay with considerable fewer pellets.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If I could only take one of my shotguns in the dove field and clay course it would be my 1982 1100 12ga with fixed improved cylinder. It will eat any shell you feed it flawlessly.

I love my SBE2, it's a great all around shotgun. It suffers on the clay course just like my old Auto 5's with today's weak target loads. The cheap target loads just don't have enough ass to make the inertia or recoil driven guns run right.

I had to do some work to my A5 Magnum Twelve to make it work on the trap/skeet range. For starters it gobbled two sets of wood front and back before I gave up and switched to plastic. And the aftermarket plastic set did not just slap right on. The fore end channel required a couple days work to open it up enough. And then I had to salvage the magazine cap locking pin and spring assembly from broken fore end and fit it into plastic one. To fix unreliable cycling issues I bought a replacement barrel spring and friction brake for 2.75" Light Twelve. Then had a local machinist make a tube insert to take up the difference in length between the two springs. The Magnum spring is simply too stiff for trap loads no matter how I rearranged the two brakes. For very wimpy trap loads I can swap out the Light Twelve brake for one of the two magnum brakes which is about half the size. With Light Twelve spring and brake I have no problems cycling 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz with this old gun. I have even been able to make it work with 7/8 oz reloads but I don't shoot them well. I typically shoot 1 1/8 at the range. Last year I forgot the 3" magnum spring at home when I went to Montana pheasant hunting. Due to ammo availability issues I had to shoot 3" steel shells on the federal refuge. It handled them fine. Maybe it kicked harder but I didn't notice.

 

[BeeMaa]

@Field28 - I had a SBE2 and never had a problem with 1 1/8 oz loads. When I went down to 1 oz loads it failed to fully eject or didn’t pick up a new shell about half the time.

A few years ago I switched to a SBE3 and it eats EVERYTHING without issue. I’ve shot a few times with @HankBuck and even he’s been surprised how reliable it is with light loads.

FYI - I’m shooting Federal target loads.

 

[HankBuck]

My SBE2 will cycle most of the time. The main culprit that I've had a problem with are the 100 pack either Winchester or Federal cheaper target loads. You can't even call the low brass, they're no brass.
I do wish I had one of those old HK imported SBE1's, I've shot a couple of them that had been beat to hell but kept going.

Don't even think of trying to run them through an old Auto 5. Even with the friction rings set properly they half cycle the shell.

@Field28 - I agree with you that the SBE1 was better quality then the SBE2 and Benelli also recognized issues with the SBE2 (it was cheaply built, plastic trigger assembly) and made some improvements to the SBE3. I’m familiar with the value 4 pack Federal & Winchester ammo - both are 1 1/18 oz @ 1200fps and should cycle. Forget the A5, the older models made in Belgium were well made but work reliable with High Brass 1 1/4 oz loads at 1300fps. I am a big Fan of Benelli including the SBE but Not for Clays - the Montefeltro or Ethos are better for those sports.

 

[HankBuck]

@Field28 - I had a SBE2 and never had a problem with 1 1/8 oz loads. When I went down to 1 oz loads it failed to fully eject or didn’t pick up a new shell about half the time.

A few years ago I switched to a SBE3 and it eats EVERYTHING without issue. I’ve shot a few times with @HankBuck and even he’s been surprised how reliable it is with light loads.

FYI - I’m shooting Federal target loads.

@BeeMaa - Agree the SBE3 is a step up in quality from the SBE2 (or the SBE2 is a Step DOWN from the SBE1 & 3). It is nice to be able to practice Clays with the same gun you’re going to duck, goose, or dove hunt with and Benelli lets you do that.
Also, for a fairly lightweight gun—- recoil (inertia) semi auto - recoil seems mild even with Hunting loads. its not designed for clays and there are better semi autos for clay applications but it is a high quality semi auto.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Field28 - I agree with you that the SBE1 was better quality then the SBE2 and Benelli also recognized issues with the SBE2 (it was cheaply built, plastic trigger assembly) and made some improvements to the SBE3. I’m familiar with the value 4 pack Federal & Winchester ammo - both are 1 1/18 oz @ 1200fps and should cycle. Forget the A5, the older models made in Belgium were well made but work reliable with High Brass 1 1/4 oz loads at 1300fps. I am a big Fan of Benelli including the SBE but Not for Clays - the Montefeltro or Ethos are better for those sports.

Myth to dispell. The Miroku A5s were much better made than their Belgian predecessors. Miroku didn't ignore the original design defects and they were quick to jump on the screw-in choke bandwagon. You won't find a Belgian A5 with factory screw-in chokes. Briley could install thin wall chokes in the FN A5s but it was expensive and their chokes are proprietary. Invector chokes that Miroku A5 uses are same as Winchoke and Mossberg chokes. Miroku attempted to fix the inherent problem with A5 fore ends by adding more wood. Eventually they even tried using crossbolt ahead of the barrel ring contact. FN was happy enough just replacing their too light fore ends that invariably are battered to pieces by the barrel ring when shells are loaded into chamber. Remington 11--48 fixed the issue in 1948 by lining the fore end with a steel tube so the barrel ring was effectively hammering on the magazine cap instead of fore end wood. An easy fix that Val Browning somehow ignored though he fiddled with his dad's invention substantially (adding magazine cutoff and two-piece follower that allows shells to be automatically loaded in empty chamber when inserted into magazine). Miroku did not spare the metal and their fit and finish was as good if not better than FN A5s. My Miroku Magnum Twelve now has a 1961 FN receiver thanks to a primer blowing up on the clays range four years ago. Interesting that the old FN A5 trigger group would not work with the aftermarket plastic stock. Sometime between 1961 and 1972 when I purchased a new Light Twelve, FN changed the tang angle on trigger assembly. So my FN receiver had to take the Miroku trigger group. No problem. Mechanically, except for better quality barrels with chokes, Miroku and FN A5 shotguns are identical. Miroku are noticeably heavier because they put more metal in their barrels. Not a bad thing.

 

[Field28]

Ontario, I completely agree when it comes to Japanese vs. Belgian. The older Belgians are beautiful but if I had to take an Auto 5 into a duck blind or boat I would grab the Miroku anyday!

I might pull one of my old Belgians out for a dove shoot or to hunt over a wood duck hole but that's it.

 

[Field28]

Not too mention that the Mirokus can take steel down the barrel as opposed to tungsten or bismuth with the Belgians.

 

[HankBuck]

Myth to dispell. The Miroku A5s were much better made than their Belgian predecessors. Miroku didn't ignore the original design defects and they were quick to jump on the screw-in choke bandwagon. You won't find a Belgian A5 with factory screw-in chokes. Bailey could install thin wall chokes in the FN A5s but it was expensive and their chokes are proprietary. Invector chokes that Miroku A5 uses are same as Winchoke and Mossberg chokes. Miroku attempted to fix the inherent problem with A5 fore ends by adding more wood. Eventually they even tried using crossbolt ahead of the barrel ring contact. FN was happy enough just replacing their too light fore ends that invariably are battered to pieces by the barrel ring when shells are loaded into chamber. Remington 11--48 fixed the issue in 1948 by lining the fore end with a steel tube so the barrel ring was effectively hammering on the magazine cap instead of fore end wood. An easy fix that Val Browning somehow ignored though he fiddled with his dad's invention substantially (adding magazine cutoff and two-piece follower that allows shells to be automatically loaded in empty chamber when inserted into magazine). Miroku did not spare the metal and their fit and finish was as good if not better than FN A5s. My Miroku Magnum Twelve now has a 1961 FN receiver thanks to a primer blowing up on the clays range four years ago. Interesting that the old FN A5 trigger group would not work with the aftermarket plastic stock. Sometime between 1961 and 1972 when I purchased a new Light Twelve, FN changed the tang angle on trigger assembly. So my FN receiver had to take the Miroku trigger group. No problem. Mechanically, except for better quality barrels with chokes, Miroku and FN A5 shotguns are identical. Miroku are noticeably heavier because they put more metal in their barrels. Not a bad thing.

@Ontario Hunter - you obviously like your Japanese Browning and they make good firearms - Citori OUs included, the ones I’ve owned have all been mechanically sound, functional, and reliable. I question two things that you regard as signs of “quality” and especially considering your age and the era your represent:
1). Screw in choke tubes - indicate an “improvement”?? over a fixed choke barrel found on the “real” A5s. A real A5 with fixed modified choke handles everything well, you either miss or hit but it ain’t your choke. A generation of market Hunters almost wiped out waterfowl populations using fixed choke shotguns. Even in the extremely competitive world of Sporting Clays competitions almost No One changes chokes during the competition and some Top shooters use fixed choke barrels - more so in Europe. So, while a screw in choke does offer some versatility - it adds little practical advantage over a fixed choke. Maybe the extreme ends (Xfull/Turkey & open/Skeet) demonstrate an advantage.
2). Miroku “noticeably heavier” “more metal in their barrels” is “Not a bad thing”? Well, it’s Not a good thing either. If you don’t know how to build - you tend to “over build” in an effort to obtain strength - Ruger 101 vs. Colt Python is an example….sure the Ruger is more durable - so is a Hammer. I’m a bit off track here and will yield to your firearms knowledge which is likely exceeds my own….but “heavier” does not equal better. There is a reason that Belgium Brownings are more highly regarded then Miroku and it’s not all based on nostalgia…they were finely made firearms.
I am also a frequent contradiction, liking wood stocks and traditional firearms but duck hunting with a benelli SBE1 and think it’s great. I hate plastic stocks and also dislike camo stocks - but own 2 guns with them and have “learned to accept”….definitely a push-pull relationship with past & present !

 

[HankBuck]

Not too mention that the Mirokus can take steel down the barrel as opposed to tungsten or bismuth with the Belgians.

@Field28 - any single barrel Belgium browning can handle steel shot or Tungston…only side x sides should avoid it

 

[Ontario Hunter]

B

@Ontario Hunter - you obviously like your Japanese Browning and they make good firearms - Citori OUs included, the ones I’ve owned have all been mechanically sound, functional, and reliable. I question two things that you regard as signs of “quality” and especially considering your age and the era your represent:
1). Screw in choke tubes - indicate an “improvement”?? over a fixed choke barrel found on the “real” A5s. A real A5 with fixed modified choke handles everything well, you either miss or hit but it ain’t your choke. A generation of market Hunters almost wiped out waterfowl populations using fixed choke shotguns. Even in the extremely competitive world of Sporting Clays competitions almost No One changes chokes during the competition and some Top shooters use fixed choke barrels - more so in Europe. So, while a screw in choke does offer some versatility - it adds little practical advantage over a fixed choke. Maybe the extreme ends (Xfull/Turkey & open/Skeet) demonstrate an advantage.
2). Miroku “noticeably heavier” “more metal in their barrels” is “Not a bad thing”? Well, it’s Not a good thing either. If you don’t know how to build - you tend to “over build” in an effort to obtain strength - Ruger 101 vs. Colt Python is an example….sure the Ruger is more durable - so is a Hammer. I’m a bit off track here and will yield to your firearms knowledge which is likely exceeds my own….but “heavier” does not equal better. There is a reason that Belgium Brownings are more highly regarded then Miroku and it’s not all based on nostalgia…they were finely made firearms.
I am also a frequent contradiction, liking wood stocks and traditional firearms but duck hunting with a benelli SBE1 and think it’s great. I hate plastic stocks and also dislike camo stocks - but own 2 guns with them and have “learned to accept”….definitely a push-pull relationship with past & present !

FN made their barrels so thin that Browning recommends not shooting them with steel, even with fixed modified. I know. My FN Light Twelve has fixed modified and I called them on it. If I lay a 1970s FN A5 next to a 1990s Miroku, you likely would be hard pressed to tell the difference without looking closely at what's written on the barrels.

Same amount and quality engraving. Same wood and checkering. Same rich bluing. Same flawless cycling (if you know how to set it up).

Choke tubes are definitely an advantage for those who want to hunt a variety of game with the same gun. Extra full for turkeys, modified for geese and ducks, full for trap, IC or skeet for mountain grouse or huns. Sure, I could shoot roosters with full choke and they would be just as dead as skeet choke. And my dentist would prefer it too. He enjoys billing me for crowns. But I see no point in blowing a bird to bits when I can just as easily change to a more open choke and mitigate the damage.

There is a big difference between killing birds and breaking clays. The single pellet that only breaks a pheasant's leg would shatter and "kill" a clay target. Changing chokes allows me to change my game without changing guns. "Beware the man who shoots just one gun ... because he will shoot it well." Allowing my one gun to be more versatile by changing ammo and chokes means I will shoot it even better. The birds who die quickly appreciate that. And I appreciate it when I cook them. Also doesn't hurt my range scores to move between venues shooting the same gun. But being a one gun guy means I'm "boring." Maybe. But I find being different makes it a little less boring.

 

[HankBuck]

B

FN made their barrels so thin that Browning recommends not shooting them with steel, even with fixed modified. I know. My FN Light Twelve has fixed modified and I called them on it. If I lay a 1970s FN A5 next to a 1990s Miroku, you likely would be hard pressed to tell the difference without looking closely at what's written on the barrels.
View attachment 618671
Same amount and quality engraving. Same wood and checkering. Same rich bluing. Same flawless cycling (if you know how to set it up).

Choke tubes are definitely an advantage for those who want to hunt a variety of game with the same gun. Extra full for turkeys, modified for geese and ducks, full for trap, IC or skeet for mountain grouse or huns. Sure, I could shoot roosters with full choke and they would be just as dead as skeet choke. And my dentist would prefer it too. He enjoys billing me for crowns. But I see no point in blowing a bird to bits when I can just as easily change to a more open choke and mitigate the damage.

There is a big difference between killing birds and breaking clays. The single pellet that only breaks a pheasant's leg would shatter and "kill" a clay target. Changing chokes allows me to change my game without changing guns. "Beware the man who shoots just one gun ... because he will shoot it well." Allowing my one gun to be more versatile by changing ammo and chokes means I will shoot it even better. The birds who die quickly appreciate that. And I appreciate it when I cook them. Also doesn't hurt my range scores to move between venues shooting the same gun. But being a one gun guy means I'm "boring." Maybe. But I find being different makes it a little less boring.

@Ontario Hunter if you believe choke tubes give you an advantage - then “they Do” because 1/2 of shooting is confidence. I liked tubes too but think that the “bluing on my barrel” is almost as important as my choke….but I like to Over Think things too and I will change chokes for Duck vs quail when I have the option.
Regarding your A5 (or pretend A5) I noticed a slip on recoil pad — I used one on my Rem 760 .30-06 for many years. When I eventually took it off my wood stock had “rippled” down near the butt plate, minor damage too wood and almost certain it held moisture in there from a rainy days hunt where I “failed” to remove it, dry it off.
I have since removed it and will take the time needed to install a proper pad on it….my fault