Which to choose for clays/dove

[HankBuck]

There are at least five of which I am aware in Virginia, Maryland, and Texas. It is apparently a growing liability concern. And while not important to most here, no pigeon shoot on any continent allows them. I do shoot box birds a great deal. I know of no quail shooting operation that allows them, or anything heavier than a 20 for that matter.

I want to make sure i never go to any of those in VA, even the County Course Bull Run allows them, as does Old Forge, Shady Grove,… what Sporting Clays don’t? You can Not hold a registered NSCA shoot without them….live birds are a different case

 

[Thomas G. Vogt]

You've got a great list of options there. Here are a few thoughts:

1. New Beretta A300 Ultima 28" - Reliable and comes with full warranty support. Great for peace of mind.
2. Used Beretta A400 Xtreme Plus 28" - Excellent gun, especially if you liked your previous A400. Worth considering if you can find a good deal.
3. Used Beretta AL391 Teknys 28" - A classic choice. However, since it's discontinued, you might run into issues with finding parts and service. It's worth checking with Beretta or local gunsmiths to see how easily you can get parts.

Given your budget and needs, the A300 might be the best all-around option, but if you find a well-maintained A400, it could be a great value. The AL391 is tempting if you can ensure parts availability.

Happy hunting, and good luck with your decision!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

There are at least five of which I am aware in Virginia, Maryland, and Texas. It is apparently a growing liability concern. And while not important to most here, no pigeon shoot on any continent allows them. I do shoot box birds a great deal. I know of no quail shooting operation that allows them, or anything heavier than a 20 for that matter.

I don't see how auto guns on clays ranges can be a liability issue, though I'm sure the O/U snobs have found a way to make that excuse stick at the board meetings. It's all about the mess the auto shooters make and having to wait for them to clean up empty hulls before the fancy gun snobs can step up and shoot. "It disrupts our rhythm." I've heard similar whining on the trap line when someone shoots a BPS or Model 37. The shooter when it's his turn must close on an empty chamber, push the round into tube, then shuck the slide to load the shell to shoot it. "Wrecks everyone's rhythm." Boo-hoo.

 

[Red Leg]

I don't see how auto guns on clays ranges can be a liability issue, though I'm sure the O/U snobs have found a way to make that excuse stick at the board meetings. It's all about the mess the auto shooters make and having to wait for them to clean up empty hulls before the fancy gun snobs can step up and shoot. "It disrupts our rhythm." I've heard similar whining on the trap line when someone shoots a BPS or Model 37. The shooter when it's his turn must close on an empty chamber, push the round into tube, then shuck the slide to load the shell to shoot it. "Wrecks everyone's rhythm." Boo-hoo.

Simple solution, don't show up at those ranges. Everyone is happy.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Simple solution, don't show up at those ranges. Everyone is happy.

Or I could show up at "those ranges" and make everyone unhappy ... except me. It would almost be worth the ridiculous membership fees. I prefer shooting alone anyway. It would be guaranteed at those ranges.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

If youre not planning on going after ducks, geese, etc (looking specifically for a clay and dove gun.. and not an "all around" gun).. I concur with @Mtn_Infantry ... A nice, used O/U like a Silver Pigeon would be where I'd personally go..

I prefer "field" versions over "sporting" versions (principle difference is a field gun will auto safe when you close the action, where a sporting gun will stay on safe or fire (wherever you last put it) when you close the action... and sporting versions will typically have a few things done that lighten the weight of the gun a few ounces).. but either will work just fine for both clay games and dove/quail, pheasant, grouse, etc etc etc..

I love the way a Citori swings and shoots.. they balance really well for me right out of the box... but Im a little hesitant to buy one after being heavily involved in skeet/trap/sporting clays/etc for the last few years.. Its not that they arent great guns, or that I havent seen them in the hands of some great shooters, etc.. they just seem to need more maintenance and make more trips to the gunsmiths for minor repairs than the Silver Pigeons do.. (mind you, we're talking about guns being shot by high school students upwards of 1000 times a month, for 8-9 months out of the year.. they are getting A LOT more use than a gun owned by the typical guy that hits the sporting clays course once a week and maybe dove hunts 4-5 times a year..)...

Watching the Rizzinis, Brownings, etc go down a little more often that I like, led us to being a Berretta family (and Webley and Scott)... between my wife, youngest (the HS shooter), and myself, Berretta and W&S are all we shoot anymore..

I think the older Browning's are vasty superior to the new ones but that's personal bias having 2 Pre-War Superposed Guns

If I was in the market, I'd pick a used 686 Silver Pigeon all day. I saw a deal on a used one 2 weeks ago and had to fight myself not to buy it.

@Red Leg I also know Joshua Creek doesn't allow any Semi-Auto/Pump Guns in their fields for hunts. They also don't allow anything over 20ga when hunting. Is this the Sporting Clay Course you're thinking of? I thought they allowed a Semi-Auto on the sporting clay course but you're restricted to (2) shells max. Is this the course you're thinking of or is there a different one and I'm confused on the rules?

 

[HankBuck]

I think the older Browning's are vasty superior to the new ones but that's personal bias having 2 Pre-War Superposed Guns

If I was in the market, I'd pick a used 686 Silver Pigeon all day. I saw a deal on a used one 2 weeks ago and had to fight myself not to buy it.

@Red Leg I also know Joshua Creek doesn't allow any Semi-Auto/Pump Guns in their fields for hunts. They also don't allow anything over 20ga when hunting. Is this the Sporting Clay Course you're thinking of? I thought they allowed a Semi-Auto on the sporting clay course but you're restricted to (2) shells max. Is this the course you're thinking of or is there a different one and I'm confused on the rules?

@Mtn_Infantry - I did some google searches for VA and MD - there are NO Sporting Clays ranges that prohibit Semi Auto shotguns for Sporting Clays. Even a County run “Public course” allows and they also hold “3 Bird Shoots” where 3 Clay targets are thrown at once and “only” Semi auto and pump guns can compete.
As you mention - there are “Hunting Preserves” that prohibit semi autos and most because of the shells left on the ground. Would be interested in the name of any Sporting Clays range that prohibits Semi Autos, they might exist?? But they won’t be considered a top course if they don’t hold registered shoots.

 

[BeeMaa]

I bought a used Beretta A400 Xtreme Plus with Kickoff. It’s absolutely the softest shooting semiautomatic shotgun I’ve ever handled. It would be my first pick of the ones you listed.

Second choice would be the Benelli SBE3 for the simple reliability of it. It also happens to be my “go to” gun for just about everything.

I agree with @Red Leg on the 12 bore being overkill for dove and would more likely consider a 20 or 28 bore O/U for this pursuit.

I’m not getting into the what’s allowed or not when it come to using a semiautomatic except to say if you don’t like it, you don’t have to go there.

 

[HankBuck]

I don't see how auto guns on clays ranges can be a liability issue, though I'm sure the O/U snobs have found a way to make that excuse stick at the board meetings. It's all about the mess the auto shooters make and having to wait for them to clean up empty hulls before the fancy gun snobs can step up and shoot. "It disrupts our rhythm." I've heard similar whining on the trap line when someone shoots a BPS or Model 37. The shooter when it's his turn must close on an empty chamber, push the round into tube, then shuck the slide to load the shell to shoot it. "Wrecks everyone's rhythm." Boo-hoo.

@Ontario Hunter - now there’s No need to call OU shooters “snobs” just because you shoot/favor a semi Browning A-5 - which was a fine gun and “revolutionary innovation” for many years after it’s invention…many a Market Hunter made his living on ducks with them. The first one of my childhood hunting friends to get a “New“ gun - got a Belgium A5 and was the envy of us all. But they are Non existent on any Skeet or Sporting Clay competition and Not because they are Unsafe or can’t break targets - there are Now much better shotguns for clay targets. To your point - some Top shooters use semi (although less then 10% Top men) it is more popular with Women competitors due to lower recoil. It’s still the ability of the Shooter that matters most and No special gun makes an average Competitor into a great one (I’d buy one if it existed!!).

 

[HankBuck]

I bought a used Beretta A400 Xtreme Plus with Kickoff. It’s absolutely the softest shooting semiautomatic shotgun I’ve ever handled. It would be my first pick of the ones you listed.

Second choice would be the Benelli SBE3 for the simple reliability of it. It also happens to be my “go to” gun for just about everything.

I agree with @Red Leg on the 12 bore being overkill for dove and would more likely consider a 20 or 28 bore O/U for this pursuit.

I’m not getting into the what’s allowed or not when it come to using a semiautomatic except to say if you don’t like it, you don’t have to go there.

@BeeMaa - have you tried the Benelli “Ethos”? I have not and don’t know anyone that has - believe it was Benelli’s attempt to get into the clays shooting market. I know you like your Benelli’s - as do I. The Beretta 400 is now a proven competition gun and some sponsored shooters are using it but the only Benelli I’ve ever seen used by a Master level shooter was an OU and it caught a lot of attention from everyone because of how rare that gun is and how Great this Italian guy shot it (he finished 2nd to World Champion Brandon Powell in a “Make a Break” shoot off).
Clearly it’s always the Shooter that matters most.

 

[BeeMaa]

@BeeMaa - have you tried the Benelli “Ethos”? I have not and don’t know anyone that has - believe it was Benelli’s attempt to get into the clays shooting market. I know you like your Benelli’s - as do I. The Beretta 400 is now a proven competition gun and some sponsored shooters are using it but the only Benelli I’ve ever seen used by a Master level shooter was an OU and it caught a lot of attention from everyone because of how rare that gun is and how Great this Italian guy shot it (he finished 2nd to World Champion Brandon Powell in a “Make a Break” shoot off).
Clearly it’s always the Shooter that matters most.

I’ve held an Ethos, but not shot it. Beautiful shotgun but lacking the 3.5” chamber option I require for abusing my shoulder.

In truth, my NEEDS are very small when it comes to semiautomatic shotguns and something so pretty as an Ethos would be a likely safe queen for me.

If anything, I’d get another SBE3 except this time in 20 bore for clays, goose, duck…etc. Or I could just keep shooting my 12 bore with TKY choke at clays.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter - now there’s No need to call OU shooters “snobs” just because you shoot/favor a semi Browning A-5 - which was a fine gun and “revolutionary innovation” for many years after it’s invention…many a Market Hunter made his living on ducks with them. The first one of my childhood hunting friends to get a “New“ gun - got a Belgium A5 and was the envy of us all. But they are Non existent on any Skeet or Sporting Clay competition and Not because they are Unsafe or can’t break targets - there are Now much better shotguns for clay targets. To your point - some Top shooters use semi (although less then 10% Top men) it is more popular with Women competitors due to lower recoil. It’s still the ability of the Shooter that matters most and No special gun makes an average Competitor into a great one (I’d buy one if it existed!!).

The snobs moniker was tongue in cheek. I really need to make more use of emojis. I just figured out how to find them in the menu options.

However, my extensive experience shooting at our country bumpkin range has given me plenty of exposure to O/U snobbery. Having said that, my best friend out there, who also got me going back to AF&M Lodge, shoots nothing but O/U. He's a great guy. Go figure.

 

[mdwest]

have you tried the Benelli “Ethos”?

Ive been a coach for a HS sporting shotgun team for the last couple of years and recently was appointed to the TX SCTP board (one of the larger organizations that oversees HS and collegiate shooting sports, organizes tournaments across the state, etc).. In just the last 12 months Ive seen a bit of a surge of Ethos shooters..

Specific to TX (other states may be very different) berretta reigns as king.. I dont have actual numbers.. but my best guess would be a full 50% of more shoot either A400's or one of the different berretta O/U options.. along with a smattering of A300 shooters, and a small group of kids shooting very high end competition guns like the DT11..

Several of the more prominent Italian makers (generally more expensive than the entry level Berrettas) like Rizzini, Guerini, etc) are also always present.. but I'd guess they make up 10-15% of the total number of guns you see at any given tournament..

Browning always has a good showing.. I'd guess about 10% of the shooters have Citoris or some other reasonable browning.. and Zoli, with their San Antonio operation gets a pretty decent chunk of the market.. I'd guess maybe 10% of the market +/-..

The remaining 15% of the guns are "everybody else".. (Remington, Winchester, Benelli, etc..etc..)..

All of that said.. during the 2023 season you MIGHT see 1 or 2 benellis out of 300-400 kids at a large regional tournament.. they were few and far between enough that you noticed when someone shouldered one..

While they still dont represent a huge piece of the market (specific to SCTP).. this past year, I'd guess maybe 5 or 6 would be seen a day (pretty substantial improvement).. most of the benellis you'd see were "hunting" shotguns that kids were using simply because thats what they have.. SBE's, etc.. where the uptick was (from what I was observing) came from more kids using Ethos this year than last..

Im completely guessing here.. but I think most of the Ethos shooters are kids that grew up with Benellis for hunting.. that probably did their first year or two with their SBE's or Vincis, etc.. and then decided they wanted a gun specifically for sporting, and wanted to stay with a benelli platform..

To Benellis credit, I saw very, very few benellis go down this past tournament season.. they all appear to run smooth and reliably despite being put to fairly substantial round counts and the lack of care that unfortunately some teens will expose them to..

The gun that surprised me most this past year with failures/problems were the Rizzinis.. it seemed every tournament there were at least 1 or 2 Rizzini shooters running for their back up guns, or sitting on a pic nic table somewhere trying to figure out how to get their guns up and running again..

I dont know if it was coincidence.. or if there is some sort of issue going on.. but there were A LOT of rizzini problems observed..

 

[BeeMaa]

@mdwest made a great point - reliability is KING when it comes to competition and hunting as well.

I can’t tell you how many semiautomatic shotguns I’ve seen jam when hunting on the river but it’s a lot. Most are due to improper care or more accurately, neglect. Some from damaged or old ammo that was wet, rusted or otherwise not suitable for hunting use.

Of the guns I’ve seen stop running in the field, they have all been gas operated with the exception of one Franchi that was fed junk ammo. Remington, Mossberg, Browning, Winchester, and even a couple of Beretta’s. I’m sure there are others that are escaping my memory at the moment.

But like I said, most of these issues could have easily been prevented with proper gun maintenance and good ammo.

 

[Firebird]

I’m going to reiterate several others from this post. Beretta service is lousy. Their wood for whatever reason cracks. I have owned multiple beretta shotguns and have had wood problems on every one of them including most recently a 20 ga semi auto. The last beretta I will own.
I would encourage you to buy an o/u but not a beretta or go the synthetic route.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have shot the inertia shotguns and for recoil I don't see any difference between fixed breech O/U. They kick. My old long recoil Brownings have significantly less but it is a different kind of recoil ("double shuffle") which turns off many shooters. When an A5 is adjusted properly it can compete with Beretta for soft felt recoil.

If I wanted my kid to be competitive I'd by him/her a good 12 gauge auto. Tournaments are long and usually in hot shirtsleeve summer weather. Firing a couple thousand rounds from a fixed breech shotgun is bound to take a toll on a kid, especially shooting trap (admittedly double trap essentially requires two barrels). Occasionally in very nasty weather I'll show up for trap league with my retired worn out 870 goose gun. I'll shoot one round and ask myself how the hell did I put up with that pounding for forty years. And I'm only shooting trap loads! Fortunately, geese are rarely coming in fast and furious. And even if they are I'm as often as not finished with a full bag after seven or eight shots. A round of trap is twenty-five rounds, not in rapid succession, but fairly quickly. My daughter comes out to shoot from time to time. I give her my dad's Light Twelve A5 (I shoot the Magnum Twelve). She coveted the Citori when I bought it a couple years ago. So I let her shoot a round with it while I used the Light Twelve. She made it through second station before swapping guns.

 

[BeeMaa]

Not trying to make this into “Gas vs Inertia” thread but they are very different in terms of felt recoil.

Gas guns (in general) are much smoother to shoot than a comparable inertia gun with their double-hit recoil.

But for every advantage there is a disadvantage. Inertia guns don’t have to rely on gas entering the action that could possibly gum up the works. Hence, more reliable operations.

It really depends on the primary use for the shotgun and the person shooting it. I know people who use inertia for hunting but switch to a gas gun for clays.

Fortunately, in the US we are allowed to have several of whichever ones we would prefer. I would encourage everyone to go out and give something new a try. You never know what you might find and really enjoy.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Not trying to make this into “Gas vs Inertia” thread but they are very different in terms of felt recoil.

Gas guns (in general) are much smoother to shoot than a comparable inertia gun with their double-hit recoil.

But for every advantage there is a disadvantage. Inertia guns don’t have to rely on gas entering the action that could possibly gum up the works. Hence, more reliable operations.

It really depends on the primary use for the shotgun and the person shooting it. I know people who use inertia for hunting but switch to a gas gun for clays.

Fortunately, in the US we are allowed to have several of whichever ones we would prefer. I would encourage everyone to go out and give something new a try. You never know what you might find and really enjoy.

Beretta has found a way to overcome the traditional gas fouling issues ... or so the guys tell me at the club. I know two who shoot there's the entire year without cleaning. One of the club officers shot his Beretta auto for  years without cleaning before it failed one evening. He sent it in to them to be "fixed." Early crappy Model 1100s gave gas guns in general a bad reputation for fouling. Two rounds of trap and those had to be cleaned or they jammed. I have heard gas guns don't perform well in extreme cold but that's not surprising for any auto. I can make my old A5 work in subzero temps but I have modified it extensively.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Interesting on the "no 12ga" bird preserve statements as well as the auto shotguns. I have shot a lot of bird preserves in Texas, Florida, Georgia and Alabama. Most of them state that but it seems to be enforced much like Colombian traffic laws. I always let them know upfront that I shoot a 12ga hammer gun and use 7/8oz loads. Never had an issue.

When I was into clay sports years ago, I got a heck of a deal on a Winchester M97 Trap grade. Heavy, beautiful, deadly and for many, a bit annoying. When I showed up on the line, "real" trap shooters lost their $hit!

For anyone in the Florida area, OK Corral Gun Club in Okeechobee is a great club. We were members there for several years until we moved back to Texas. Mama and I would often rent a cabin for the weekend and enjoy the ranges and the great food.

If recoil isn't an issue, I think most clay/skeet shooters do the auto to O/U transition if the sport gains their interest. When I was shooting competition skeet, I had a Remington 1100 for 12ga and shot a Rem 3200 with Briley tubes in the small gauges. Those were the guns back in the day and most had an ugly poly cobb on the auto. I carried a tackle box full of parts to keep the 1100 going. They are like NASCARS. A few laps around the course and they have to go into pitstop. In the later years I went to a Benelli in 12 and an SKB barrel set for the little gauges. I remember when Wayne Mayes was shooting for Winchester and he would show up with an armload of their crappy autos and smoke every target. When a shotgun went down, he just grabbed another. Nothing shook that man.

Safe shooting

 

[HankBuck]

Ive been a coach for a HS sporting shotgun team for the last couple of years and recently was appointed to the TX SCTP board (one of the larger organizations that oversees HS and collegiate shooting sports, organizes tournaments across the state, etc).. In just the last 12 months Ive seen a bit of a surge of Ethos shooters..

Specific to TX (other states may be very different) berretta reigns as king.. I dont have actual numbers.. but my best guess would be a full 50% of more shoot either A400's or one of the different berretta O/U options.. along with a smattering of A300 shooters, and a small group of kids shooting very high end competition guns like the DT11..

Several of the more prominent Italian makers (generally more expensive than the entry level Berrettas) like Rizzini, Guerini, etc) are also always present.. but I'd guess they make up 10-15% of the total number of guns you see at any given tournament..

Browning always has a good showing.. I'd guess about 10% of the shooters have Citoris or some other reasonable browning.. and Zoli, with their San Antonio operation gets a pretty decent chunk of the market.. I'd guess maybe 10% of the market +/-..

The remaining 15% of the guns are "everybody else".. (Remington, Winchester, Benelli, etc..etc..)..

All of that said.. during the 2023 season you MIGHT see 1 or 2 benellis out of 300-400 kids at a large regional tournament.. they were few and far between enough that you noticed when someone shouldered one..

While they still dont represent a huge piece of the market (specific to SCTP).. this past year, I'd guess maybe 5 or 6 would be seen a day (pretty substantial improvement).. most of the benellis you'd see were "hunting" shotguns that kids were using simply because thats what they have.. SBE's, etc.. where the uptick was (from what I was observing) came from more kids using Ethos this year than last..

Im completely guessing here.. but I think most of the Ethos shooters are kids that grew up with Benellis for hunting.. that probably did their first year or two with their SBE's or Vincis, etc.. and then decided they wanted a gun specifically for sporting, and wanted to stay with a benelli platform..

To Benellis credit, I saw very, very few benellis go down this past tournament season.. they all appear to run smooth and reliably despite being put to fairly substantial round counts and the lack of care that unfortunately some teens will expose them to..

The gun that surprised me most this past year with failures/problems were the Rizzinis.. it seemed every tournament there were at least 1 or 2 Rizzini shooters running for their back up guns, or sitting on a pic nic table somewhere trying to figure out how to get their guns up and running again..

I dont know if it was coincidence.. or if there is some sort of issue going on.. but there were A LOT of rizzini problems observed..

@mdwest thanks for that well listed information - I found it interesting and insightful. Some of what you’ve observed (Baretta being the dominant Semi auto for clays) is similar to my observations. The Benelli Ethos seems a new comer and I’ve yet to notice one but I could also be “missing many”. Surprised about failures of Rizzini and assume you refer to their OUs? They are considered a cut above Zoli and some think above Caesar too.