What’s wrong with Belted cartridges?

[CBH Australia]

i sometimes see comments implying he belt of belted magnum cartridges is a disadvantage. What am I missing? I even have an expensive die that can size down to the belt.
My first a .300wm, second .458wm, third is the .375H&H the only one I currently have .
I may buy a 7mmRM or .300WM for a hunting rifle, maybe even a .338 wm one day
I understand a flanged case may be an advantage in double rifles.
Maybe I think true Magnums are belted, I dunno a little old school but limited experience
Other than some developments of smaller cases providing similar performance
What’s wrong with the belt?

 

[Pheroze]

No argument here. And, I think they are slim compared to other designs for similar calibers.

 

[grand veneur]

There is nothing wrong with cartridges with a belt , but initially only 2 cartridges really need one , the 300 H & H Magnum and the 375 H & H Magnum. Due to their conical cases they would otherwise slip into the chamber after firing. After the success of both cartridges , a belt became the brand for a lot of Magnum cartridges which did not need any. This is due partially to Winchester but especially to Roy Weatherby. Its cartridges , because of their case design , normally don't need something like that.

But it continues , unnecessary cartridges with belts have been developed again in recent years.

 

[fourfive8]

I too have heard all the “negatives” about belted carts. Most recently the distractors usually are somehow involved with or simply parrot the marketing (or ownership ego) of one of the beltless, large body cartridge owners.

I simply have not experienced all those negatives. Matter of fact I find little fault with the design. The only fly in the soup I’ve experienced with the belted cartridge has to do with reloading NOT function. And in reality a belted cart has a small advantage in that the headspace is absolute and set and not dissimilar from rimmed cartridges. Whereas in comparison, it is very easy to really foul up beltless carts during the resizing process of reloading.

For best resizing of belted carts where chambering resistance at the body just forward of the belt becomes a nuisance after a firing or two, nothing beats a collet type sizer like the one made by Innovative Technologies. It only sizes that portion of the case just forward of the belt thus ensuring resistance free chambering- really a good thing for DG ammo! That little quirk of the belted design is the only one I’ve experienced and it is a very small one that is easily dealt with, with that extra reloading step- not much considering the relatively limited number of rounds of such ammo shot anyway. Not like I need to reload or shoot the big stuff a hundred at a time

 

[Bullthrower338]

It is something else for people to argue and bitch about! Only issue I’ve ever had with a belt is not enough holes in it to keep my britches from sliding mid ass on me!

 

[JimP]

Many years ago I read a article on weather a belt is needed or not. The conclusion was that it isn't as long as the case can headspace on the shoulder.

You can see this in a lot of the new rounds that are being developed or coming out. No belt but a good shoulder.

 

[curtism1234]

I think most of the negatives have to do with the older hunters who think the 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag are overkill on game and too heavy recoil compared to the 270, 280, 30-06 types.

 

[perttime]

Mostly, the belt on a cartridge is just unnecessary, as long as the cartridge has a shoulder.
It has been claimed that headspacing on the belt introduces more possibilities for the cartridge to be slightly out of alignment in the chamber - which isn't ideal for accuracy.

 

[Standard Velocity]

Belts are good for ensuring adequate headspace since it headspaces on the belt. Slight shouldered cases like 300 and 375 H&H like this. If you are wildcating this facilitates easy fire forming. Many of or now standard magnums started out as wildcats since the developers just needed a custom reamer, custom dies and a fearless sense of adventure. Upon standardization the ammo manufacturers didn’t reinvent the wheel wildcatters had already built.

Since becoming standard, many of these magnums have experienced case head separation after repeated loadings. The belt acts almost like a rear locking lug action in how it allows the case to stretch. Proper setup of dies will, however, minimize or eliminate this problem.

Eventually cartridge developers realized that an action large enough to handle the width of a belt could take advantage of the additional space by omitting the belt and using a wider case. These cartridges could achieve higher powder capacity in the same space. Following this methodology we now have a plethora of cartridges that redline velocity expectations. It’s an efficient use of space but arguably unnecessary.

I would argue that all of this additional velocity is rarely needed (though it is cool). The faster the bullet the more you have to depend on bullet construction/technology. Above 2,700 FPS I don’t trust cup and core. Bullets that perform well at 3,000+ FPS often have difficulties at low velocities (extended range). I generally split the difference with a Partition.

The benefits of being confident my moderate pressure cartridges will extract regardless of ambient temperature outweigh my guy tendency to want the biggest baddest. Belts are not necessary but some of my favorite cartridges happen to have them.

 

[Dr Ray]

i sometimes see comments implying he belt of belted magnum cartridges is a disadvantage. What am I missing? I even have an expensive die that can size down to the belt.
My first a .300wm, second .458wm, third is the .375H&H the only one I currently have .
I may buy a 7mmRM or .300WM for a hunting rifle, maybe even a .338 wm one day
I understand a flanged case may be an advantage in double rifles.
Maybe I think true Magnums are belted, I dunno a little old school but limited experience
Other than some developments of smaller cases providing similar performance
What’s wrong with the belt?

My answer to the point. Nothing.

 

[Fred Gunner]

belt is not enough holes in it to keep my britches from sliding mid ass on me

Leather punch has been in my tool box for years

.375 Ruger went Beltless and out preforms the 375 H&H Just sayin...

"Take my advice pull down your pants and slide on the Ice!"

 

[perttime]

...
I would argue that all of this additional velocity is rarely needed (though it is cool). The faster the bullet the more you have to depend on bullet construction/technology. Above 2,700 FPS I don’t trust cup and core. Bullets that perform well at 3,000+ FPS often have difficulties at low velocities (extended range). I generally split the difference with a Partition.
...

Sometimes the stated goal isn't more velocity but same velocity out of a shorter action. Like when people feel that .458WM is not quite enough. So you get .458 Lott. Some wish they could get the Lott velocity out of a WM size action, so try to add powder capacity by going for slightly fatter brass - perhaps the size of the belt.

 

[fourfive8]

Pic shows an Innovative Technologies collet type belted case sizer. The caliper shows the approximate area and extent of the sizing done immediately forward of the belt... about 1/2". The beauty of a collet system for sizing is that it squeezes inward not lengthwise like regular sizing dies, therefore no chance for distortion and it sizes to the edge of the collet at the edge of the belt.

Pretty simple- lube case and collet, slip collet over case up to belt, run in and out of die (die is in press), remove collet.

 

[Bullthrower338]

Leather punch has been in my tool box for years

.375 Ruger went Beltless and out preforms the 375 H&H Just sayin...

"Take my advice pull down your pants and slide on the Ice!"

I’ve never been much of a guy to short stroke anything, I will stick with the H&H.

 

[CBH Australia]

@fourfive8 that is the expensive die I mentioned in the opening post. I couldn’t think of the name and I work away Fromm home hence the amount of time I spend here.
I read about it on Chuck Hawks page, I was sceptical on the write up etc but it sounds logical but going mail order from the us makes it a costly single die but I’m glad more experienced people have proven it’s worth.

 

[Pheroze]

@fourfive8 that is the expensive die I mentioned in the opening post. I couldn’t think of the name and I work away Fromm home hence the amount of time I spend here.
I read about it on Chuck Hawks page, I was sceptical on the write up etc but it sounds logical but going mail order from the us makes it a costly single die but I’m glad more experienced people have proven it’s worth.

It's a neat little die. Interesting that I dont have to use it often with the 375 H&H but I have to use it every time with the 308 Norma.

 

[fourfive8]

CBH, Yes I had thought that’s the one you referred to. The nice thing about them is the universal nature of the design where a single die will work for all the standard sized belted mags. Just be sure to use plenty of sizing lube on both the case and the collet and they work a charm!

 

[fourfive8]

It's a neat little die. Interesting that I dont have to use it often with the 375 H&H but I have to use it every time with the 308 Norma.

Not sure, but it may have something to do with the amount of body taper. The HH has quite a bit.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

CBH
Chris there's nothing wrong with the belted case if treated properly. Different manufacturers have different tolerances for the belted. This may any be a few thou but if incorrectly resized can lead to case head separations. To avoid this issue all you need to do is size as per any bottle neck case. I slightly crush fit helps with the separation issues.
People may get a laugh out of this but a cartridge I don't like because it's neither fish or foul, the 458 win.the best thing I can say about it is it gave birth to good mags like the 338, 300, 358, 7.mmm,etc.
The belt may be deemed a thing of the past but they still have that cool factor. The 338 necked up to 35, 404 or 416 would be uber cool.

 

[ack]

My answer to the point. Nothing.

I am perfectly happy with my .300 Win. and it's lovely belt..Plenty accurate for me..