What is the ultimate stopping rifle..?

[Red Leg]

Well I’m sure that many do carry 375’s I’ve just never hunted with one that does…

HH

I will admit they are rare in DG country, but I have hunted with a couple. One of them in Mozambique hunts several lion and elephant each year along with numerous buffalo. He is a great believer in the accuracy and recovery time of his .375.

 

[WAB]

I have generally found that sarcasm is an overvalued form of humor.

If you would actually read my post, you would see I was referring to the best choice a client could make. Were I a dangerous game PH, I would have a legitimate interest in a stopping rifle. As a client, assuming I have the ability to do my job, it is just a novelty to have in the gunroom or a potential problem to bring on a buffalo hunt. Having said that, if someone with some experience hunting buff wants to limit himself to a 500 class rifle, then fine. He just has to be willing to limit himself to shots he is absolutely certain he can make. That is a significantly smaller sample size than those available to a client with a scoped .375 or .416. Such a shot may or may not happen on a 7 - 10 day hunt.

I have mentioned this before, but my old friend and PH in Mozambique would always say that the only client that really worried him was a first time buffalo hunter with his new double rifle.

I agree that a .375 will do the job. In fact, my wife’s one shot kill on an old dugga boy with our 9.3x62 convinced me that the .375 is more than adequate. However, my .375 and .458 Lott are matching custom M-70’s that I shoot equally well. The Lott generates a much more impressive reaction from buffalo, so it is typically my go to.

I totally agree that a well placed .375 is better than a poorly placed .458. However, a well placed .458 trumps a well placed .375.

 

[Flewis]

Yes, but you did bring up after the first shot hence my reply.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

.243 Winchester. With a good bullet of course. I'm thinking conventional wisdom with a soft point first, followed by solids.

Sorry... I couldn't believe someone hadn't said it yet.

 

[PCC600]

My buffalo took exception to being shot by a 505 Gibbs and tried to get back up. A second point blank 570gr A-frame at 2300fps sat him back down. Then I shot him a few more times to make sure he wasn't trying to fool me, bullets are cheap.

I like the saying "Any decent cartridge will work fine under ideal conditions. A great cartridge works well under less than ideal conditions". If you are an amazing shot with nerves of steel, a 30-06 would be plenty for any dangerous game... However, if your me and you don't notice the small tree between you and the animal, the 30-06 would be a poor choice.

-Matt

I can relate to the small tree scenario on a running shot . Cut a small tree in half but still flattened a small boar . 450 Rigby was all I had to hand at the time .

 

[matt85]

I can relate to the small tree scenario on a running shot . Cut a small tree in half but still flattened a small boar . 450 Rigby was all I had to hand at the time .

It was a rainy overcast day and the buffalo was about 60-70 yards from me. I didn't see the small tree between me and the animal. The tree was maybe 5-10 yards from the animal, so 50+ yards from me and my optic was a red-dot with no magnification.

My 505 blew the tree in half, broke the buffalo's shoulder, passed through some slightly important organs, then broke a rib, and was caught by the skin on the off side.

-Matt

 

[PCC600]

What’s not to like about the 505 Gibbs !

 

[matt85]

What’s not to like about the 505 Gibbs !

1. It's difficult to hand load for.
2. Rifles chambered in it are plagued with magazine issues.

Thats why I don't consider it to be an "ultimate stopping rifle" option. A 458 Lott will do anything a 505 will do. But the 458 Lott will be easier to hand load and won't suffer from the magazine issues that plague the 505.

-Matt

 

[PCC600]

We must be talking about a different cartridge . Had a 458 Lott - gone . Have 2 505 Gibbs - keepers . Only do hand loading. No problems .

 

[Tam Dl]

Assume government Officers who are not bound by fair chase or terrorism (?) concerns, 9.3x62 semi auto with box magazine and modern scope or red dot. This solves all the problems. You have enough penetration to do anything on earth, and you have fast follow up shots, low recoil and muzzle blast, and you have more available shots. So the situation in which the shots had to be delayed till the bolt action is not fast enough, but the double is expensive, and has limited magazine capacity, has a solution. You still have to have a steady shooter who waits on the sight picture before pulling the trigger, and doesn't believe that the "weight of wounding" will eventually bring the animal down and not the use of surgical accuracy.

In the north country, of the 2000 pound bears, there may be no semi auto restrictions.

The traditional version of that would be a lever action in 50-110, 50 Alaskan, 470 Turnbull, or best of all (?) the 1895 in 9.3x62, or 1886 in 45-90. I think levers may be faster than Blasers. There is nothing wrong with faster if the sights still control the show.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Saved & went along as a visitor long ago on an Elephant Hunt .. it was a stressful trek.
Wanted to do a bird hunt this yr.,

 

[Safari Dave]

Modern bullets in a .460 Weatherby...

 

[matt85]

We must be talking about a different cartridge . Had a 458 Lott - gone . Have 2 505 Gibbs - keepers . Only do hand loading. No problems .

No one said it was a bad cartridge, I have used a 505 Gibbs and am still fond of the cartridge. But I don't let my fondness blind me to its downsides.

I don't own a 500 NE (anymore) or a 458 Lott but I still consider them superior to other stopping cartridges. If I was a professional hunter or simply spent a great deal more time hunting DG, I would use one of these cartridges. As it stands, I'm a recreational shooter who occasionally gets to hunt dangerous game. So, my personal rifle choices are less about ideal performance or being practical and more about being fun and or interesting.

-Matt

 

[PCC600]

No one said it was a bad cartridge, I have used a 505 Gibbs and am still fond of the cartridge. But I don't let my fondness blind me to its downsides.

I don't own a 500 NE (anymore) or a 458 Lott but I still consider them superior to other stopping cartridges. If I was a professional hunter or simply spent a great deal more time hunting DG, I would use one of these cartridges. As it stands, I'm a recreational shooter who occasionally gets to hunt dangerous game. So, my personal rifle choices are less about ideal performance or being practical and more about being fun and or interesting.

-Matt

I use a 500 NE and 505 Gibbs . They are both brilliant and I do not see the downside with the 505.

 

[StevenQ718]

1. It's difficult to hand load for.
2. Rifles chambered in it are plagued with magazine issues.

Thats why I don't consider it to be an "ultimate stopping rifle" option. A 458 Lott will do anything a 505 will do. But the 458 Lott will be easier to hand load and won't suffer from the magazine issues that plague the 505.

-Matt

505 has more stopping power than 458 Lott.

 

[Flewis]

While I do like the 458 Lott, I think the 505 Gibbs is in a whole different zipp code.

 

[Tam Dl]

I have mentioned this before, but my old friend and PH in Mozambique would always say that the only client that really worried him was a first time buffalo hunter with his new double rifle.

How do you think that compound slur breaks down?

- New Hunter, particularly a man... Unless they did a Safari prep course?
- Double? Is that: 1) A particular problem with the double action? Nobody seems too concerned with double shotguns as a manual of arms issue?; 2) Double means too powerful, a 9.3x74 double would not be a problem; 3) It's an older double (due to cost), maybe needs some time in the shop; 4) He thinks he is Alpha, sorta like that dog that thinks the owner is clueless, and insists on meeting every stranger and situation, pulling on the end of a leash, but in this case the PH actually is squared away. Or he may cut and run?

 

[DLSJR]

About five or six years ago, a group of PH’s got together and made a group purchase of Heym doubles. I don’t know who all the PH’s were besides Alan Vincent and Cliff Walker, but there were 4 or 5 others involved. They were all in 500 NE. I guess they decided the 500 NE was an ultimate stopping round.

 

[Red Leg]

How do you think that compound slur breaks down?

- New Hunter, particularly a man... Unless they did a Safari prep course?
- Double? Is that: 1) A particular problem with the double action? Nobody seems too concerned with double shotguns as a manual of arms issue?; 2) Double means too powerful, a 9.3x74 double would not be a problem; 3) It's an older double (due to cost), maybe needs some time in the shop; 4) He thinks he is Alpha, sorta like that dog that thinks the owner is clueless, and insists on meeting every stranger and situation, pulling on the end of a leash, but in this case the PH actually is squared away. Or he may cut and run?

I am not sure what your somewhat inarticulate issue is. And I offered a slur?

I merely reported the observations of a very experienced PH. He was also RLI which puts us in the same age group and having somewhat related experiences - which includes that whole cut and run thing. But whatever stokes your particular outrage is fine with me. I will simply say that based upon my experiences, I can't argue with him. So, to reiterate, I think a first double rifle is not the best choice for a first buffalo for the vast majority of clients. You should feel free to disagree. However, I am fairly confident nothing you would say would change my observations which are based upon experience. I also am absolutely certain my friend would understand what he was dealing with in the first five minutes - regardless how many safari prep courses a client may have attended.

But I could be wrong. I would be happy to actually discuss this topic with you if you can formulate whatever position it is that my observations seem to trigger into some sort of logical argument? After all, thinking it is clever to insult the courage of a man you do not know is rather immature at best. So please, let's actually discuss my observations, and why you disagree. I am sure the readers of this thread would benefit.

 

[Franco]

Well this is certainly getting interesting.

The basic fundamental of a forum is to seek and share knowledge as well as share experiences and opinions with the understanding, ignoring absolutes - not everyone is going to agree.

As the discussion seems now to have drifted to a first time buffalo hunter with a new double, I am inclined to offer my 2 cents - because I AM THAT GUY.

Those of you who have followed my initial contributions to this forum know my story; for those who haven't, long story short - at 65, not having hunted anything larger than a pheasant in the previous 40 years, armed with a Heym 450-400 Double, a Heym 375 H&H, and a Weatherby 300 mag, I set out to experience the glory and romance of Hemingway, Roosevelt, Selous, etc.

A broken femur eliminated a planned Safari Prep Course; my PH rescheduled me to the last hunt of the season rather than forfeit all my upfront fees.

The PH was fully aware of my lack of experience, and equally aware of my absence of an agenda. I was there for the experience - not a body count.

With respect to Red Leg's comment attributed to his friend having concerns about a newbie with a double - all I can say is "DAMN STRAIGHT". I would not want a PH who wasn't.

To lend some personal insight; in addition to my tenure as a professional pilot, I was very active on the airshow circuit flying a variety of WWII fighters and bombers. As it pertains to this discussion, I was also an instructor and check pilot in most of those aircraft. I considered every one of those flights as having the potential to get me killed.

A PH is no different, they have the right and obligation to question their clients ability. They are ultimately responsible for that client's safety and have a tolerance factor of zero for failure.

I witnessed several of my cohorts allow a situation to get out of control because they were being a "nice guy", or the person they were checking out was wealthy and they didn't want to alienate them. Whatever the reason, the result was the same - they're dead.

While in no means am I any kind of expert, nor do I share the years of experience many of you do - but, 3 elephants, 6 cape buffalo, 3 hippos, 2 crocs, a rhino, a lion, and around 40 plains game animals does give me a perspective.

To be effective with a double means up close - sometimes really close; if a PH has concerns about putting a client, any client - new or not, in that kind of a situation on their first pairing - LET HIM.

If a client takes offense - LET HIM, because if the PH isn't concerned - you are not getting what you're paying for.

Did I shoot my double on that first trip - you bet, I shot 3 cape buffalo with it. But not before I had shot a number of plains game and a cape buffalo with my 375.

I'll segue back to the caliber discussion after dinner.