What is it about European cartridges in North America?

[Nevada Mike]

Noting said about the quality of American firearms..... but the Americans do it in a different way, with a different result.

Same with the Brits.... they perfected the SxS rifle and shotgun in a way witch is unparalleled.

This does not mean, you cannot have a beautiful continental or american....


HWL

I would have to agree that the Brits developed the SxS to it's ultimate form. I own a few Brit SxS guns and have not found many that could rival them, but Hartman & Weiss also produce a nearly perfect version, and the high end Italian makers have innovated while retaining the virtues of the British SxS.

With regards to bolt action rifles, there are many makers who easily surpass even the best British gunmakers. I can buy (and have bought) excellent, custom built rifles that surpass the best efforts of the Brits for about half the money. Perhaps without the big name appeal, but so what?

 

[JimP]

In regards to the more beautiful and ornate European arms, wasn't Europe have more of a hierarchy of firearms ownership and the availability of hunting where those who owned firearms could afford the luxury of hand made and custom rifles and shotguns?

Here in the US firearms were more for survival and most couldn't afford the expense of a handmade custom rifle or shotgun. We wanted one that would work.

As for calibers there were those that were developed here in the US and then there were those that were developed by the Europeans. So is the 7x57 any better than the 30-06 or is the 30-06 any better than the 8x57? Granted the US government had to pay quite a bit when the old 03A3 came out because of how much they copied off of the Spanish Mauser but that was settled in a court of law.

 

[Opposite Pole]

A cartridge always needs a rifle to be brought to life.

The Continent and Britain have rifles to offer, the Americans do not have.

This alien rifles transfer the European cartridges.

This package of rifle and cartridge is, what it makes it irresistible

Those, who have handled this rifles, know what I am talking about.


HWL

I’m European but I disagree. Yes, traditionally European hunting firearms (UK is in Europe btw) were made by very competent craftsman for the privileged members of the society for early morning entertainment. This meant certain level of craftsmanship was expected. Meanwhile, across the pond, our American friends had a country to build and applied their no nonsense, pragmatic attitude to everything including firearms. Guns were tools rather than fancy toys and a very different set of requirements had to be fulfilled. Perhaps even today, most firearms sold in US still fall into the category of pragmatic, utilitarian tools (nothing wrong with that) but take a look at workmanship of people like John Bolliger - Americans have nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[bruce moulds]

what can it do more than the other 2 other than shoot the tightest groups at 300m in really accurate target, bench, or fclass guns.?
bruce.

Interesting no mention of the 6.5x47 Lapua, my favorite cartridge, US or European. It does everything, and more than the 6.5 CM and the Swede.

i will repeat the question.
what can the 6.5 lapua do that the creedmoor or the swede can't.
if you make a statement like that there must be reasons.
i have not as you suspect owned one, bur witnessed many on fclass ranges after the cartridge came out.
we know it has less capacity than the creedmoor or the swede, so it cannot be faster.
it is known to have the greatest accuracy potential of the three, but only in rifles capable of demonstrating that, and shot off benches.
the cartridge was developed with the sole purpose of going head to head with the 6br in 300 meter competition.
what we have found with time is that the creedmoor is the smalles capacity that will allow the use of h4350 burning rate powders required to get heavier bullets up to worthwhile speeds, important in hunting.
my own foray into the small case 6.5 realm was the 6.5 super lr, for the very reason of using 4350 with 140 gn bullets.
wonderful to shoot as in user friendly, and accurate, but not a cartridge i would use as a mainline hunting round.
interested in your reasoning as to what the lapua can do that the cm and the swede can't for hunting.
bruce.

 

[crs]

Thank you Professor Mawla for your VERY considerate and pertinent comment just after Baxter B made his condescending remark.

That says it all.

 

[baxterb]

Thank you Professor Mawla for your VERY considerate and pertinent comment just after Baxter B made his condescending remark.

That says it all.

Come again? Condescending? To whom?

 

[Joker12]

Truth in lending, from a typical North American game animal's perspective, there is no meaningful difference between a group of cartridges such as the 7x57, 7x64, 6.5X57, 8X57, .270, 280, AND 30-06. However, the rifles in which many of these European creations are chambered can be very special indeed. The rimmed versions such as the 7x57R, 7x65R, and 6.5x57R are often housed in some of the most beautiful single shots and combination guns ever created - perfectly balanced and useful firearms that make pre-64 Model 70 feel like a pipe in a 2x4. This Bradshaw 7x65R is an example.

When one moves up into the realm of the 9.3, whether the 62mm in a bolt action or the 74R in a host of wonderful double rifles, they occupy a relatively low recoiling hard hitting niche not really filled by a corresponding caliber except perhaps the venerable Whelen. The 62 and 74R are something like the .338 Win Mag without all the drama. And of course you would have a hard time finding a 35 or .338 in a configuration like this pre-war German double.

The British, of course, pretty much defined the general purpose and dangerous game calibers for Africa, so I would assume your question didn't really refer to something like the .375.

My Rigby Highland Stalker in .275 (an Anglicized name for the 7x57) essentially does nothing that a Remington 700 won't do in .280. But that Rigby represents a level of tradition and craftsmanship somewhat missing in the usual Remington.

It is the special quality of so many of those firearms that is the attraction for me.

Your Rigby also costs much more than a pedestrian factory rifle. Not a fair comparison. As to the pre64 M70 I dare say that with what one pays for the Rigby a good custom maker can turn the Winchester into every bit as lovely a piece and lets not forget that the old M70 earned its stellar reputation with absolutely reliable accuracy and function. The kind that you can bet your life on.

 

[Red Leg]

Your Rigby also costs much more than a pedestrian factory rifle. Not a fair comparison. As to the pre64 M70 I dare say that with what one pays for the Rigby a good custom maker can turn the Winchester into every bit as lovely a piece and lets not forget that the old M70 earned its stellar reputation with absolutely reliable accuracy and function. The kind that you can bet your life on.

I am sorry. I am missing your point. Did you read the post you quoted? Put a pre-64 in a finally crafted piece of walnut (as did O'Conner - Al Biesen's work) and replace that trigger along with a bit of attention to the action, and one indeed does have a wonderful rifle. It will also be very different from the original factory product.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

- Just thought of something, the .450-400 3" Nitro Express was an obsolete British cartridge actually resurrected by Hornady. Even though my rifle is a German Merkel I shoot USA ammunition out of it. Go figure.

@Longwalker
If it wasn't for companies like Hornady and federal bringing some of the older cartridges back there would be a lot of beautiful doubles and bolt actions going very cheep because of lack of ammo.
After kynoch closed its doors this did actually happen until the likes of Woodleigh and Hornady realised there was a market for the old cartridges and breathed new life back into them.
For a lot of years after WW11 the Americans had a bad case of NIH ( not invented here) and so a lot of great European cartridges didn't even get a look in. If they did they were badly underloaded. Then came the magnum craze of the 60s to the late 80s so virtually nothing happened as all and sundry wanted these new wiz bang toys.
Now the wheel is moving again we are starting to look more at what we use in the field. I could have had a 9.3x62 the same as a few mates and it is a grand cartridge but I chose the 35 Whelen and learnt to load it properly. It's not as common in Australia as the 9.3 but it does have a certain mystique and class about it in Oz.
I think because of the NIH the USA is now playing catch up and realizing the the continental cartridges are as good and in some cases better than their own.
With our world shrinking and more people hunting os we're coming to appreciate other cartridges virtues.
This I is only my opinion and I may be wrong.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I agree with you, but I will say that there are custom and semi custom American makers who will rival the best that Europe has produced.

@WAB
They will also be more expensive than the European rifles as full HIGH grade custom work doesn't come cheap in the USA. Just look at the cost of engraving or a Turnbull restoration. I rest my case your honour.
No matter what you do to a Ruger No1 it will never be a Farquahson or a K95 Blaser, both exude pure class.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

In regards to the more beautiful and ornate European arms, wasn't Europe have more of a hierarchy of firearms ownership and the availability of hunting where those who owned firearms could afford the luxury of hand made and custom rifles and shotguns?

Here in the US firearms were more for survival and most couldn't afford the expense of a handmade custom rifle or shotgun. We wanted one that would work.

As for calibers there were those that were developed here in the US and then there were those that were developed by the Europeans. So is the 7x57 any better than the 30-06 or is the 30-06 any better than the 8x57? Granted the US government had to pay quite a bit when the old 03A3 came out because of how much they copied off of the Spanish Mauser but that was settled in a court of law.

@JimP
The Germans were paid because of the infringement on the copy of the Mauser magazine nothing else. At the outbreak of the war the USA stopped paying anyway.
Bob

 

[PerH]

Many of the euro cartridges sadly in the Americas is loaded under Saami,and that is lower pressures and thereby its performqnce is not only lower but leaves much to wait from them. Use Cip ammo and preferably the German ,Swedish,Finnish and those who load to old millitary specs of others and its something different that make it like it should be ..

 

[PerH]

Examples are 8x57 is one clearly good example of it based on the light 170 grain soft bullets used in 8mm"I" aswell as 8x57IS .

 

[Bonk]

One thing I really like about Euro calibers is they get the job done without relying on speed. Someone else mentioned it above and I agree with them. Big for caliber bullets with an excellent SD moving at reasonable speeds. It's been a formula that's worked well for over 100 years. Small bullets moving at extreme speeds is an American thing and, IMO, it's a flawed ideology.

I also agree with the comments about the rifles. There's just something about a CRF Mauser style rifle in a Euro caliber that is way more appealing to me than a push feed 270 or 300Win. Same for a light to medium caliber double rifle. I love my 9,3x74R O/U Zoli double. When my friends come over it's the first one they ask to shoot despite all the other mall Ninja crap I have in the safe.

 

[shark_za]

My whole handgun battery rely mainly on US calibers: .45acp, .357 Mag, 10mm auto, .44 Mag and .454 Casull plus .22lr and 9 Para from EU

Lets call this one a trans Atlantic collab.
And .22 LR is American even if the BB Cap was invented in France.

 

[IvW]

One thing I really like about Euro calibers is they get the job done without relying on speed. Someone else mentioned it above and I agree with them. Big for caliber bullets with an excellent SD moving at reasonable speeds. It's been a formula that's worked well for over 100 years. Small bullets moving at extreme speeds is an American thing and, IMO, it's a flawed ideology.

I also agree with the comments about the rifles. There's just something about a CRF Mauser style rifle in a Euro caliber that is way more appealing to me than a push feed 270 or 300Win. Same for a light to medium caliber double rifle. I love my 9,3x74R O/U Zoli double. When my friends come over it's the first one they ask to shoot despite all the other mall Ninja crap I have in the safe.

Cannot agree more....

 

[Tanks]

One thing I really like about Euro calibers is they get the job done without relying on speed. Someone else mentioned it above and I agree with them. Big for caliber bullets with an excellent SD moving at reasonable speeds. It's been a formula that's worked well for over 100 years. Small bullets moving at extreme speeds is an American thing and, IMO, it's a flawed ideology.
...

You are not going to get many shots in Europe at game over 400+ yards where out west that distance is a chip shot. Horses for the courses.

Heck, just look at prairie dog shoots at distance.

 

[JimP]

There are a number of North American cartridges that do the very same thing as the European cartridges do.

But then when you try to hunt a animal with those big slow cartridges in the western portion of the US you will quickly find where they don't come up to snuff. They are fine for medium ranges and or closer shots such as you may encounter in most of Europe but when you are shooting 400 yards across a canyon at a elk sized animal you are going to need some speed for that flatter trajectory and the energy to dispatch the animal when it is hit.

But one of the most popular North American deer rifles shoots the old tried and true 30-30 cartridge, but that round just won't do the job when you head out west to wide open country..

 

[IvW]

There are a number of North American cartridges that do the very same thing as the European cartridges do.

But then when you try to hunt a animal with those big slow cartridges in the western portion of the US you will quickly find where they don't come up to snuff. They are fine for medium ranges and or closer shots such as you may encounter in most of Europe but when you are shooting 400 yards across a canyon at a elk sized animal you are going to need some speed for that flatter trajectory and the energy to dispatch the animal when it is hit.

But one of the most popular North American deer rifles shoots the old tried and true 30-30 cartridge, but that round just won't do the job when you head out west to wide open country..

There are plenty European cartridges that can easily make that 400 yard shot at an elk.....in either Rimmed or rimless...
7x64 Brenneke, 7x65R, 8x68S, 300 H&H, 30R blaser, 7x75, 8x75 and so on....most can be had in a break action single shot a true mountain rifle...

 

[Happy Myles]

American Military cartridges had an enormous impact on U.S. development. Both the 06 and 308 provides cases, bullets, and ammo for ease of use, practice and inexpensive load development load development here in the States. Most of us older fellows were required by draft to serve our country in military service and after WWII one of the most popular past times was hunting. We read Outdoor Life, Field & Stream, and Sports Afield. Jack O’Connor was read religiously and he hunted the world religiously using two Winchester Model 70 .270s, based on the same 8 x57 case as the 06 Those who had made a few bucks went to Africa and happily adopted two European rounds, the 375 H & H, and the 300 H & H. Besides a 22LR what more did we need?

Opposite Pole, I agree on John Bolliger crafted rifles I own ten of them. Kindest Regards