What is it about 404 Jeffery?

[Jack Stevens]

I think well constructed 400g bullets at 2150 fps should be all she needs. Bullet placement is paramount of course.

That was certainly the assessment of “Pondoro” Taylor in his famous book on rifles and cartridges for Africa. He states that “THE” elephant rifle was always assumed to be Jeffery’s .404.

Despite the mediocre bullet construction of that period, the 400grn projectiles killed all manner of large DG and the smaller but still dangerous beasts, like lions. It did so within the relatively mild (“mild” for a 400-class cartridge) Kynoch-Jeffery velocity “window.” That window was a muzzle velocity of 1975fps on the low end to a high of 2125fps, which was Jeffery’s own spec m.v.

Today, the issue of mediocre .404 bullets is a nonissue, whether softs or solids, and modern bullets will be as or more effective within that K-J window than the bullets made in Taylor’s time.

Hence, there’s no need to significantly heighten the felt-recoil and concussive muzzle blast of Jeffery’s 404 by loading it to .416 Rigby m.v. (i.e., 2300-2350+ fps). If you want a 400grn bullet launching at that velocity, then get a Rigby.

Newsflash for the uninitiated: adding 200-250fps behind a premium 404 bullet, as Hornady did with their 404 ammo, won’t kill DG any deader than if sent at Jeffery’s original m.v.

 

[Rule 303]

If Jeffery could have got a hold of magnum actions he would have built the 404 on them. Yes the 404J and 416Rigby can be built on a standard length action. However, in todays world, with monolithic bullets why would you hamstring yourself with an action length that does not allow you to get the best out of these bullets. The monolithic bullets are longer for a given weight and can do with being seated out so not to enter powder space.

Re the extra 200 to 250 fps muzzle velocity. Yes, this equals more recoil but also extends the useful distance of the cartridge. So if a miss hit on an elephant the extra muzzle velocity won't mean much if the ele was close as the extra shot should still have the ele within 100mts. But if it was nearer the 100 mts then the bullets wont be under the 1750fps when they get to it. Not to mention plains game at 200 to 300 mts. In other words a bit more of a safety margin. But this comes back to the individual and what recoil, distance etc they are comfortable and capable with.

Want a 404 or 416R and don't want a magnum action, then get a P14 or M17 Enfield or Rem30 action.

 

[dogcat1]

Well, quite a thread. I am having a .404 J built on a magnum action. I cannot think why you would not want to do that...
I picked it because it works and the various PH's I hunt with all tell me that it is one of their favorites. PH's like what you shoot well. In my case, I shoot a .375 HH well, and thought the .404 would be a nice step up....

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If Jeffery could have got a hold of magnum actions he would have built the 404 on them. Yes the 404J and 416Rigby can be built on a standard length action. However, in todays world, with monolithic bullets why would you hamstring yourself with an action length that does not allow you to get the best out of these bullets. The monolithic bullets are longer for a given weight and can do with being seated out so not to enter powder space.

Re the extra 200 to 250 fps muzzle velocity. Yes, this equals more recoil but also extends the useful distance of the cartridge. So if a miss hit on an elephant the extra muzzle velocity won't mean much if the ele was close as the extra shot should still have the ele within 100mts. But if it was nearer the 100 mts then the bullets wont be under the 1750fps when they get to it. Not to mention plains game at 200 to 300 mts. In other words a bit more of a safety margin. But this comes back to the individual and what recoil, distance etc they are comfortable and capable with.

Want a 404 or 416R and don't want a magnum action, then get a P14 or M17 Enfield or Rem30 action.

If a standard 98 Mauser action works with longer 375 or 416 Rigby, it can be made to work with longer than normal 404J cartridges. The same tricks apply (trim the locking ring). I shoot 400 gr Berger bullets just fine seated at standard COL. But I'm not interested in gassing them up to 2350 fps or shooting 450 gr bullets. If I wanted to do that, I might open up the magazine port to allow ejection of longer loaded cartridges ... if it was even necessary. Or, as you suggested, turn the junker P14 gathering dust in my safe into a 404. But finding aftermarket stuff for P14 is more limited than 98 Mauser. Or I could just go buy a 416 Rigby. Anyway, I don't need/want the extra gas/bullet weight.

My daughter is a big gal but I'm not sure I'd hand her my 404 to shoot with just 400 gr at 2150 fps. I definitely wouldn't hand her a 416 Rigby!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Well, quite a thread. I am having a .404 J built on a magnum action. I cannot think why you would not want to do that...
I picked it because it works and the various PH's I hunt with all tell me that it is one of their favorites. PH's like what you shoot well. In my case, I shoot a .375 HH well, and thought the .404 would be a nice step up....

Standard action has shorter bolt throw. Depending on who you talk to, the longer bolt throw presents greater risk of jamming the rifle due to "short stroking" (i.e. trying to close the bolt before empty case is ejected). At least in theory shorter bolt stroke should cycle faster. Faster cycling, in theory, should be more desirable for dangerous game rifle.

 

[Rule 303]

I have seen several slim, light weight lady's shooting big calibres and they do it well as well as smaller blokes, so size and gender are not a guide as to what a person can handle.

If you want to weaken a Mauser action by trimming metal from the front go for it, but not for me. Does not require much if any aftermarket stuff to turn a P14/M17 into a 404 or 416. Mostly just smith work on the magazine, feed rails, maybe bolt. Re the extractor, can't get an M17 extractor for the P14 then use a Rugger 77 extractor, they the same just a bit shorter on the tail. Works well on one of my M17's.

 

[steve white]

The 404 is the ultimate "Goldilocks" African rifle.

 

[jruby]

I love reading about these large bore rifles, The history and the ballistics. I will never hunt across the pond. SO reading and hearing about them is as close as I will ever get. I do admire them. I do not feel they are needed or have a purpose in North America. I have a 404 (,411) B&J express but the only thing I think it will kill is paper in my lifetime.

 

[Rule 303]

I love reading about these large bore rifles, The history and the ballistics. I will never hunt across the pond. SO reading and hearing about them is as close as I will ever get. I do admire them. I do not feel they are needed or have a purpose in North America. I have a 404 (,411) B&J express but the only thing I think it will kill is paper in my lifetime.

Hey, if you have rabbits, foxes or pigs etc near by use it on them, great fun. I have used my 416 Rigby on cat, rabbits all the way to Elephant. Hunting small game with it makes you more proficient with the rifle/cartridge.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have seen several slim, light weight lady's shooting big calibres and they do it well as well as smaller blokes, so size and gender are not a guide as to what a person can handle.

If you want to weaken a Mauser action by trimming metal from the front go for it, but not for me. Does not require much if any aftermarket stuff to turn a P14/M17 into a 404 or 416. Mostly just smith work on the magazine, feed rails, maybe bolt. Re the extractor, can't get an M17 extractor for the P14 then use a Rugger 77 extractor, they the same just a bit shorter on the tail. Works well on one of my M17's.

No need to trim the locking ring for standard COL 404 cartridges. If Duane Wiebe can build scores (hundreds?) of top shelf bespoke 375 rifles on standard Mauser and if PH Harry Selby shot a 416 Rigby standard action for almost 40 years, obviously the action is not "weakened" by trimming the tiny bit of metal from locking rings necessary for those builds.

 

[MS 9x56]

I have to ask - what is it about the 404 Jeffery that has lead to such a cult-like following? From what I can see, there is little to no factory availability on rifles (sub $4k) and factory ammo and reloading supplies are in sparse supply as well compared to other options.

416 rem, ruger, and Rigby are readily available as are brass, factory ammo, and reloading gear. They offer greater SD using a 400grain bullet, and seem to shoot flatter (if only slightly).

I know I’m probably stirring the pot a bit, but I’m honestly looking for the answer. Would also be nice if at least ONE manufacturer could build a 404 Jeff for south of $2k!

I think Ruger did!

 

[Rare Breed]

My 400 grain Hornady factory ammo is 2300 FPS. Interesting

 

[Rule 303]

No need to trim the locking ring for standard COL 404 cartridges. If Duane Wiebe can build scores (hundreds?) of top shelf bespoke 375 rifles on standard Mauser and if PH Harry Selby shot a 416 Rigby standard action for almost 40 years, obviously the action is not "weakened" by trimming the tiny bit of metal from locking rings necessary for those builds.

You can use Woodleigh 400 grain Hydros and similar mono mentals in those actions without loosing powder space and velocity or chopping a fair bit of metal from the rear of the locking lug recess. If you choose not to use those bullets fine but why handicap yourself by using an action that is on the short side, regardless of who and how many have been made. If you are happy doing this go for it, if not go the longer actions after all there is a reason they were made. It gets back to whatever floats your boat.

 

[John Telford]

404 has indeed seen a dramatic resurgence in popularity. Consequently, loaded ammo and component availability is growing (albeit cautiously) to meet demand. ANY of the thumper calibers are expensive to shoot. No news there. But I anticipate this African "darling" will only increase in popularity ... and suppliers will meet the demand. Will 404 become cheaper to shoot? Maybe a little. I suppose if cheap shooter interested me I would buy a new American mass produced for-shit-quality-control plastic stock rifle in a US bred novelty cartridge (tons to pick from).

Trying to remember the last time I saw 416 Taylor ammo on the shelf ... um ... like

If Jeffery could have got a hold of magnum actions he would have built the 404 on them. Yes the 404J and 416Rigby can be built on a standard length action. However, in todays world, with monolithic bullets why would you hamstring yourself with an action length that does not allow you to get the best out of these bullets. The monolithic bullets are longer for a given weight and can do with being seated out so not to enter powder space.

Re the extra 200 to 250 fps muzzle velocity. Yes, this equals more recoil but also extends the useful distance of the cartridge. So if a miss hit on an elephant the extra muzzle velocity won't mean much if the ele was close as the extra shot should still have the ele within 100mts. But if it was nearer the 100 mts then the bullets wont be under the 1750fps when they get to it. Not to mention plains game at 200 to 300 mts. In other words a bit more of a safety margin. But this comes back to the individual and what recoil, distance etc they are comfortable and capable with.

Want a 404 or 416R and don't want a magnum action, then get a P14 or M17 Enfield or Rem30 action.

Jeffery did build on the magnum action as did other gun makers. Recall the .404 was public domain from day one so anyone was allowed to build one. Of my 5 .404 Jeffery’s three are built on magnum actions The other are pre 1912 so these are on Standard actions. One of the magnums is built on the solid side wall DSQB mauser action. Only 20 in existence!

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

My 404 is on a standard 98 Mauser action,I did most of the work at the rear end of the receiver leaving the front mostly alone, cycles fine, no hang ups. I still need to make a perch belly magazine floor metal for it, can’t quite fit in the last round
Gumpy

 

[Ontario Hunter]

My 404 is on a standard 98 Mauser action,I did most of the work at the rear end of the receiver leaving the front mostly alone, cycles fine, no hang ups. I still need to make a perch belly magazine floor metal for it, can’t quite fit in the last round
Gumpy

What's the overall length of your cartridges?

 

[Rule 303]

What's the overall length of your cartridges?

I know your asking the Grumpy one but the shortest 375H&H, with 200grain projectile I use is 88.7mm, I can shorten them by about 2mm. The standard Mauser 98 mag length is about 84mm from memory. The 300grain pills are somewhat longer and sit on top of the powder (AR2209/H4350). This in a Rem700 action factory made for the 375H&H. The 300 grain Hydros I have to use a faster powder AR2206H to get about same velocity as to fit the action I have to seat them way deeper than in the CZ550 I had. Luckily they still shot to the same POI as the soft nose.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Of my 5 .404 Jeffery’s three are built on magnum actions The other are pre 1912 so these are on Standard actions. One of the magnums is built on the solid side wall DSQB mauser action. Only 20 in existence!

I think we can all agree you can never have “too many” 404s.

 

[Jack Stevens]

I think Ruger did!

Yes, if I recall correctly, Ruger did a limited run of the bolt-action .404 RSMs in the 1990s, but screwed up the barrel by either going with the wrong bore diameter or the wrong twist rate. Can’t recall which exactly.

Too bad too. A proper .404 RSM, with its integral full quarter-rib, would’ve been both beautiful and affordable.

 

[harris88]

Sure, the SD of a 400 grain .423 is lower than with the .416s, but it's still quite a bit higher than with the tried and true 300 grain .375 AND you get a larger frontal area too. Something to seriously consider with solids.

Then there is the beltless design and the long sloping shoulders for not only smooth feeding but also to make it easier to insert a cartridge in the magazine. I'm sure many of us are familiar with the magnum belts sometimes colliding when you're trying to push your ammo against the back of the magazine - doesn't happen with the likes of the .404J.

Finally, modern guns and powders have significantly increased the energy output, making the .404 quite the powerhouse.

In my opininion, for dangerous game, one can get more gun with the .404 than with the common .416s without going into the .458 Lott territory in recoil (when comparing otherwise identical guns). And it's possibly this quality that makes it so appealing.