What is a wild lion?

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thanks Phil. To this point- how do we know if the lion is born in the wild? Serapa is a great example- they have lions roaming their large property. If one of those lionesses has a litter of cubs, are those cubs considered wild born? I'm wondering what makes a property wild.

Can future generations of a captive bred lion ever be considered wild born? ie. Two captive bred lions released into a national park. They have cubs. Are those cubs wild? Is the national park what makes them wild? The size of the park?

Of note, I remember reading on AH somewhere that some captive bred lions had been exported to other african countries trying to revive their wild populations, introduce some genetic diversity, etc. Even though they're living in the wild as wild lions, do they still count as not wild?

In regards to the cubs question, I think again it comes down to the situation in which the cubs were born. Are they born within a "small" enclosure where the mother is fed and thereby the cubs too? Or were the cubs born in either a "large" enclosure where the mother is not fed and relies on her own hunting to feed herself and thereby the cubs too or in a completely fence free wild area?

If it's the former, they were obviously born in captivity and at least partially raised this way. That cub will forever more be deemed as a captive bred lion, no matter if it is ever released into a more wild system.

My understanding, and possible misunderstanding is that even if either of the parents were captive bred, if it's the latter, the cub will be forever more considered wild.

My impression is the size of the park really doesn't come into play. And I'm not sure who "they" are that are making this delineation between wild and captive bred. I don't think they want to get into the size of the park or property. If you think about it, where would you draw that line? I believe the intent is to look at the ecosystem the lion is living in and determine if the lion can make it's own living by hunting it's own food? Or would it require being fed?

If I'm correct and that's a big IF, it sort of makes sense to me and sort of doesn't. From the outsiders point of view, it makes sense. Is the lion taking care of itself or not? If so, it is wild. If not, then it isn't. Where it doesn't make sense to me is that the lion if born in captivity will never learn to fend for itself if released into an area where it would be capable of doing so. It's as if this adult lion which has been fed and cared for by humans, if released and no longer taken care of will just lay down and die waiting for a truck to come by with some meat. I know without question that captive bred lions won't do this, they will in fact begin to and be successful hunting for themselves.

But in the end a line has to be drawn somewhere and I'm sure there will always be legitimate questions regarding that line placement.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

This is what you find on the internet when you search_"USFWS defines 'wild' lion vs captive bred"

Understood.

 

[billc]

It was not my intention to come across as an anti hunter. There is a big difference between an anti and an ethical hunter.

You should read the post again. .....and in many cases classified as canned lion hunting......

This is what the greenies or antis call it and the way they see and termed as such by them.

We are all sick of antis and greenies that influence governments etc. and make hunting out to be a bad thing. What they don't realise is that Hunting pay's for conservation and in Africa if it pays it stays, if not it has to make way for something that does.

Unfortunately the Captive bred lion industry, as does any form of business, had some unscrupulous operators who were so influenced by the US$ that they faltered and allowed for unethical/illegal practices to take place. The antis jumped on this and used footage etc. against the whole captive bred lion industry in SA and the result is above restrictions now put in place by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

They do not seem to distinguish between "wild" or "captive bred" lions. The hunter needs to prove that the Lion hunted in SA for example has contributed to conservation of the species. How the hunter needs to do that I have no idea.

I for one am not a anti or a greenie, I am however an ethical hunter and despise unethical hunting practices. Call it what you want, "put and take", "drugged", "small fenced", "trailer", "canned", "captive bred" each hunter can decide for himself where he is willing to draw the line.

Many mistakes are made by authorities with regards to hunting and conservation. Botswana is a prime example, they have stopped hunting(again due to greenie pressure), this will prove to be a big mistake as they are way overpopulated with elephant.

The same in Kruger park, way too many elephant for the carrying capacity. After stopping the culling program, they dropped the fence between SA and Mozambique, the elephants don't leave, the poacher just have free access to our Rhinos now.

I have been a hunter since I was 5, we as a family go on venison hunts each year as we enjoy eating game meat, we enjoy being in the bush and we enjoy the practice of fair chase ethical hunting. Both my daughter and my son hunt. I enjoy every moment doing this with them but at the same time I strongly encourage ethical, fair chase hunting practices.

I am a Professional Hunter, Tour Guide, Fishing Guide and a conservationist who believes the only way forward for Africa's wildlife is the practice of sustainable utilisation but it needs to be done in a properly managed and controlled way.

If these viewpoints make me a greenie or an anti, so be it.

Nope don't need to read your comments again because your ethics are yours and mine are mine. I am just not as narrow minded to say because I don't like something there for no one should do it. I am for all hunting period if I like it or not because it is not my job to tell others how to enjoy the way they hunt.

 

[enysse]

I will say this..........

The ban was never about lion conservation and coming up with ways to increase their numbers and further wildlife conservation. It was always about just banning hunting. Your average USA citizen knows absolutely nothing about hunting in Africa. And I do mean nothing. They just know they don't want elephants, lion, leopards, hippos, rhinos, hippos, zebras and giraffes killed. This was something I learned 10 years back. Whenever someone asked me what I hunted? It mattered only on the specie, never the method, just the specie. When you asked them about conservation or who took care the wildlife, they were pretty oblivious to the whole subject. Until you change the perception of your average voter, you are going to see more and more regulations. Your average USA citizen today equates a hunter in Africa with a killer of endangered species in Africa. They honestly think we are the major cause of wildlife numbers declining. Until you change that perception, you are going to have these threads like this on AH......where we talk circles about RSA lion hunts.

All these regulations are about satisfying the citizens so the politicians can sleep quietly at night.

 

[Philip Glass]

It was not my intention to come across as an anti hunter. There is a big difference between an anti and an ethical hunter.

You should read the post again. .....and in many cases classified as canned lion hunting......

This is what the greenies or antis call it and the way they see and termed as such by them.

We are all sick of antis and greenies that influence governments etc. and make hunting out to be a bad thing. What they don't realise is that Hunting pay's for conservation and in Africa if it pays it stays, if not it has to make way for something that does.

Unfortunately the Captive bred lion industry, as does any form of business, had some unscrupulous operators who were so influenced by the US$ that they faltered and allowed for unethical/illegal practices to take place. The antis jumped on this and used footage etc. against the whole captive bred lion industry in SA and the result is above restrictions now put in place by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

They do not seem to distinguish between "wild" or "captive bred" lions. The hunter needs to prove that the Lion hunted in SA for example has contributed to conservation of the species. How the hunter needs to do that I have no idea.

I for one am not a anti or a greenie, I am however an ethical hunter and despise unethical hunting practices. Call it what you want, "put and take", "drugged", "small fenced", "trailer", "canned", "captive bred" each hunter can decide for himself where he is willing to draw the line.

Many mistakes are made by authorities with regards to hunting and conservation. Botswana is a prime example, they have stopped hunting(again due to greenie pressure), this will prove to be a big mistake as they are way overpopulated with elephant.

The same in Kruger park, way too many elephant for the carrying capacity. After stopping the culling program, they dropped the fence between SA and Mozambique, the elephants don't leave, the poacher just have free access to our Rhinos now.

I have been a hunter since I was 5, we as a family go on venison hunts each year as we enjoy eating game meat, we enjoy being in the bush and we enjoy the practice of fair chase ethical hunting. Both my daughter and my son hunt. I enjoy every moment doing this with them but at the same time I strongly encourage ethical, fair chase hunting practices.

I am a Professional Hunter, Tour Guide, Fishing Guide and a conservationist who believes the only way forward for Africa's wildlife is the practice of sustainable utilisation but it needs to be done in a properly managed and controlled way.

If these viewpoints make me a greenie or an anti, so be it.

IvW I'll take one more stab at this I suppose. Thank you for your nice comments however my point remains that you paint with too broad a brush and use anti hunter language when you call ranched lions canned. Cause and effect: many Hunters did not like lion hunting and even PHASA wanted lion ranchers out of business so USFWS puts in a permit system-effectively a ban. Now for instance due to the lion ban, which was started by hunters criticizing each other's practices, Tanzania has turned hundreds of thousands of acres back to cattle and villagers forever losing the wildlife. Cause and Effect.
Hunters can hang together or hang separately this is a simple truth!
Regards,
Philip

 

[rinehart0050]

@Philip Glass as always, your commentary is spot on. If you care about hunting, you have to defend and fight for hunting- the specifics are less important.

Back on topic, I still haven't seen any specific and clear guidance from USFWS on what Dan Ashe's pronouncement of "wild" lion really means. I applaud any hunter brave enough to try and import an RSA lion to the US right now. Hopefully, in a year or two, as the dust from the election settles, some clarity will emerge. Sadly, that will probably mean prices going back up to levels that I can't afford. I glad to have hunted my lion when I had the chance, trophy or not- the memories will be with me forever.

 

[Philip Glass]

@Philip Glass as always, your commentary is spot on. If you care about hunting, you have to defend and fight for hunting- the specifics are less important.

Back on topic, I still haven't seen any specific and clear guidance from USFWS on what Dan Ashe's pronouncement of "wild" lion really means. I applaud any hunter brave enough to try and import an RSA lion to the US right now. Hopefully, in a year or two, as the dust from the election settles, some clarity will emerge. Sadly, that will probably mean prices going back up to levels that I can't afford. I glad to have hunted my lion when I had the chance, trophy or not- the memories will be with me forever.

Thanks!
As you know I am waiting on my Zim lion permit now. I am told and hoping changes in admin will lead to the issuance of the permits. I think we would all be VERY interested to hear the story of the first permitted RSA Lion to arrive in the states. I am sure there are several in process now.
Regards,
Philip

 

[IvW]

IvW I'll take one more stab at this I suppose. Thank you for your nice comments however my point remains that you paint with too broad a brush and use anti hunter language when you call ranched lions canned. Cause and effect: many Hunters did not like lion hunting and even PHASA wanted lion ranchers out of business so USFWS puts in a permit system-effectively a ban. Now for instance due to the lion ban, which was started by hunters criticizing each other's practices, Tanzania has turned hundreds of thousands of acres back to cattle and villagers forever losing the wildlife. Cause and Effect.
Hunters can hang together or hang separately this is a simple truth!
Regards,
Philip

Agreed hunters should hang together, ethical hunters that is.

I did not generalize as you imply, that all ranched lions or lion hunts are canned.

I said: Quote"Captive bred or wild born does not make a difference. Self sustainability is where the line will be drawn. If you have captive bred lions, feed them in a small enclosure, breed them raise the young and you release them a week before the hunter arrives(most are released the morning of the hunt), it is obviously a captive bred lion, actually a "put and take" lion or lioness and in many cases classified as canned lion hunting. As the lion/lioness was bred for the sole purpose of being hunted and could never survive on its own in the wild.

If you buy lions from a captive bred stock or a game reserve for that matter, release them on a property where they can be self sustainable(they can breed and hunt) and once you have a self sustaining population and allow hunting of such a lion or lioness it would be considered a wild lion. They will obviously have to be free roaming and self sustainable on such property for a long time in order to get to this level." Un-quote.

So if this reads that I classify all captive bred lions as canned, I apologise as this is not what I meant.

Let me give you some examples of what does happen on many of these hunts, believe it or not.

I have seen lions drugged from their enclosure at 06h00 in the morning and then a show is put on while sitting at breakfast with a client that the trackers have just picked up fresh tracks of lions. The party leaves and start tracking the fresh lion tracks, shortly after that the lion is spotted and shot.

There are outfits who are in the business purely to make money and make as much of it as possible with no regard for hunting ethics whatsoever. These unethical and illegal practices are not restricted to lion hunting in South Africa.

That is what I am opposed to as I am an ethical hunter not a anti hunter.

I have personally witnessed this as well as a leopard that was drugged from a cage set loose with some dogs right behind it, the cat made it to a tree, the client was informed that x had been driving down the road, the leopard crossed it and his dogs treed it. He left the breakfast table and shot the leopard not believing his luck.

Caracal and serval befall the same fate, caught in traps and then kept in a cage until a luckless hunter enquires about one.

I was in a camp hunting a different client when the outfitter had a client in camp who had booked a leopard hunt. It was a female and her large male cub on the bait. They ended up conning the client into shooting the small male. They had no permit to hunt a leopard. I called Nature conservation regarding the issue while the leopard was still on the property. Nothing was done about it. The skin was eventually exported illegally to the USA. The operator was eventually arrested, fined but still operates today.

Put and take hunting is also unfortunately a common occurrence in SA.

There are unscrupulous operators out there. Many have been charged with breaking hunting regulations/law, many have been implicated in rhino poaching scandals, the list goes on and on but they stay in business, they change business names and continue to operate and con clients.

If you like to hunt like this and deceive your client like this, go ahead but this is not for me. Call it what you like but this is not hunting.

I have hunted captive bred or "ranched" lions as you call them but not in the scenarios as above. From a conservation point of view it is better for the wild lion population that there is captive bred lion hunting.

@phillip, you are right "Hunters can hang together or hang separately this is a simple truth!" just be well aware that there are many con men in the hunting industry, to take as many of your US$ as they can, with no regard for ethics.

@rinehart0050, "If you care about hunting, you have to defend and fight for hunting- the specifics are less important."
I agree with the first part of your statement, however the second part I disagree with, the specifics are very important.

I repeat, I am not opposed to captive bred/ranched lion hunting, I am however strongly opposed to un-ethical hunting practices that unfortunately take place in South Africa, a fact we cannot shy away from.