What is a trophy and what falls short?

[siml]

Mr. Ward is not a bus driver,he is a slave driver

HHS, that is one of the best laughs I have had on AH, BRILLIANT.

To me a trophy is a fully mature animal, has done his bit for the gene pool.

 

[gizmo]

Trophies are in the eye of the beholder. I personally require nothing more than a mature representative of the species passed his breeding prime for it to be what I consider to be a "trophy". I also feel that any animal I take, cull or otherwise is a "trophy".

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Younger animal it sure seems to be. Are you willing to share the name of outfit?

I can give you the name in a PM if you want.
It is not a member of this forum.

 

[TokkieM]

First of all do I prefer a mature animal with no broken tips.
I am more picky when hunting with a gun than when hunting with a bow.
I couldn't care less how an animal will score.
It is the challenge and experience that is important to me.

When I went for the first time to South Africa to hunt, my PH got me to shoot a Kudu bull with my gun that was far from being a trophy and it was not mature either.
On top of that it had a broken tip.
I did the mistake to trust the judgement of my PH.

That time I didn't have much of a clue about it all and didn't complain about it even if I was not happy about the animal at all.
I was not offered to pay cull price for the animal and the outfitter counted it as taken as one of the animals in my package.
Today I would not have accepted it.

Here is a pic of the bull.

You were right not to be happy. You could have insisted that it does not qualify as a "trophy". My first ever client I made a mistake with on Kudu,low light dead tree in the background and Bam a EC bull that would barely make 42". Client was happy,I wasn't. Went back 2 days later and got him what I considered a trophy Kudu in the EC. Client played for one bull,so did the Outfitter,I played for the other one. That was how things worked back then. I still owe a friend and client a proper Steenbuck,the one we took had a broken left horn and although the right horn would measure well within RW,I believe the client deserves a semetric example of the species for his collection. We tried on his last trip,but ran out of time,I don't intend not getting him a proper Steenbuck even if it takes a while.

 

[TokkieM]

Maybe I posed the question wrong or I am to old school. As a PH I take it personally when I don't measure (another pun) up to my own standards. I believe that if you break it down booking a safaris is just like conducting a business deal,you pay for a service and a product, if you get to shoot or hunt substandard trophies,you are being short changed no matter how hard you hunted them,not to be confused with chasing the tape. PH's & Outfitters are in the service and delivery business,PH's get trained and should have the ability to at least distinguish between a good or poor quality trophy. No PH worth his salt (another pun) will even start a stalk on a animal if he is not sure it qualifies as a trophy,unless he needs to get a better look at it.
I understand the concept of old and mature animals,but old and mature poor quality trophies are in the end still poor quality trophies. It has nothing to do with the Hunter as far as abillity and ethics or satisfaction is concerned.

I am a PH,but first and foremost I am a Hunter and yes it's not always about the inches, but I also know that a complete 19" Impala is not something that qualifies as a trophy I would want against my wall. It may have been a great hunt and experience and I will probably utelize the skin or horns,but it will never be a 22" or 24" Impala that is a representative of the species.

 

[TokkieM]

5' 4" auburn hair with a few little freckles on her nose and married to me for 35 years this August!

Mine insists that she was doing problem animal control when she bagged me

 

[Timt]

I understand the concept of old and mature animals,but old and mature poor quality trophies are in the end still poor quality trophies. It has nothing to do with the Hunter as far as abillity and ethics or satisfaction is concerned.

Don't get me wrong, I won't enjoy shooting an old 38" kudu bull as a trophy just because he is very old. That is a clear cut cull animal for me.

But I very much prefer shooting a 50" kudu with well worn down tips over shooting a 52" kudu with sharp points even if I would take both when the sticks are up.

Either way it has to be a good representative of the species with the right curves and length of a true mature trophy. Its no good shooting a 24" impala that doesn't sweep back or open up at the top for example.

 

[TokkieM]

The photos below are of Kudu that were all hunted on the same property over a period of 5 years in the EC.

Kudu 1

Kudu 2

Kudu 3

Kudu 4

All these Kudu are mature,yet Kudu's 3 and 4 I would not hunt with a client even if 3 did not have a broken horn.
Did I work for them,sure I did,do I respect and appreciate them,sure I do,but they are not what I consider a trophy if I am the client.

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I guess I haven't hunted Africa enough to properly respond to this thread.....but I will try and put my spin on it.

I have never hunted to "make book", as some others have indicated. For my first hunt, I told my outfitter that I was happy with mature, representative animals.......after that, it was the P.H.'s decision if it was "worthy" or not. I pay money to them for their expertise, so I trust their judgement.
It's going on the wall in some way, shape, or form (flat skin, skull mount, antlers only, full shoulder).....because it was a hunt of a life time (really, all hunts are "hunts of a lifetime" if you stop and think about it). But as far as "making book", here is my take on that: Nobody "I" know will ever know what "the book" is, let alone look at it.....or look for my name in it. This goes for any book! (SCI, Roland Ward, B&C, etc). I have duck mounts that were my dogs' first retrieves......if those birds were eclipse males with crappy plumage, they would probably still get mounted, because "I" trained the dogs, and it was "their" first...a special accomplishment. Difficult retrieves, hard won birds, difficult shots, long stalks, etc......those are what make a "trophy" in my book. Personally, I would be happy with any of those kudu if I put a great deal of effort in obtaining them.
What falls short? Well, personally for me, it's any animal I take that I don't feel I "earned"..........a cripple that the dog caught, a buck that just stood there in front of me and let me shoot it, etc.

Guess I don't have the mindset to be a true "trophy hunter"............I don't understand why someone would pass up hunting a nice animal just because of a few inches and it wouldn't get one's name in "the book".

 

[TokkieM]

@Mr. 16 gauge I agree that some trophies will always be special,no doubt about that.
I don't think we should confuse the specific lengths or sizes the book stipulated as wether a trophy is big enough,the book is and always will be a tool and like any tool it can be used right or for other intents. I don't believe that hunting mature representative of a species is chasing the book either. Non of the Kudu above would make the book,but they sure make a couple of good representative trophies of the species.

Won't find my name in any book and it's not because I can't get it in there,it just does not matter to me.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I can give you the name in a PM if you want.
It is not a member of this forum.

I asked not for my knowledge as much as for the AH community. HHS has a concern there are outfitters out there that are intentionally not putting clients on trophy animals and having them shoot them. As I said earlier if this is going on it should eventually be exposed by virtue of hunt reports here on AH and other places.

Now if you don't wish to publish the name on the forums I understand, but no need to PM me the name either.

 

[Nyati]

On my first hunt in SA, I had no clue as to judging a trophy on the field, but had a very professional PH. He said he would not guarantee any "monsters" but would do his best.

He would not shoot any Kudu under 50", mine was over 53" and beautiful in shape. One of my friends shot a 56" ! We were in really thick undergrowth when he directed me to shoot an impala, when we recovered it , he said, my mistake, this one is free, we´ll get another one, and we did, 23". Blesbok 17", Waterbok 31".

If we found an animal he wanted to get rid of he would ask me if I wanted to shoot, and that was free.

We hunted with the same PH the following year, in a different province, and my friends and me got some very good trophies.

For those who are interested only in measurements and are willing to pay for it, it´s very easy, just state your wish, and open your wallet, there are outfitters just willing to fulfill their dreams.

 

[Buff-Buster]

Mine insists that she was doing problem animal control when she bagged me

I'm sure my first wife would claim she was on a "cull" hunt" when she married me

 

[BWH]

Unless I am culling..... If I pull the trigger, then it is a trophy in my book.

 

[Velo Dog]

Trophies are in the eye of the beholder. I personally require nothing more than a mature representative of the species passed his breeding prime for it to be what I consider to be a "trophy". I also feel that any animal I take, cull or otherwise is a "trophy".

+1.
Anyone who has been to my hut to see the eclectic bone collection I have dragged together, can tell you that I have happily taken everything from culls to exceptional.
And anyone who knows me very well can tell you that I do not waste any energy worrying about score books, tape measures or any of that stuff.
I just like to go hunting.
It's not so much about the end result for me, it's almost entirely about the activity itself.

"My greatest trophy from Africa is the smell of thorn bush and nitro powder smoke that lingers in my memory".

 

[Velo Dog]

I guess I haven't hunted Africa enough to properly respond to this thread.....but I will try and put my spin on it.

I have never hunted to "make book", as some others have indicated. For my first hunt, I told my outfitter that I was happy with mature, representative animals.......after that, it was the P.H.'s decision if it was "worthy" or not. I pay money to them for their expertise, so I trust their judgement.
It's going on the wall in some way, shape, or form (flat skin, skull mount, antlers only, full shoulder).....because it was a hunt of a life time (really, all hunts are "hunts of a lifetime" if you stop and think about it). But as far as "making book", here is my take on that: Nobody "I" know will ever know what "the book" is, let alone look at it.....or look for my name in it. This goes for any book! (SCI, Roland Ward, B&C, etc). I have duck mounts that were my dogs' first retrieves......if those birds were eclipse males with crappy plumage, they would probably still get mounted, because "I" trained the dogs, and it was "their" first...a special accomplishment. Difficult retrieves, hard won birds, difficult shots, long stalks, etc......those are what make a "trophy" in my book. Personally, I would be happy with any of those kudu if I put a great deal of effort in obtaining them.
What falls short? Well, personally for me, it's any animal I take that I don't feel I "earned"..........a cripple that the dog caught, a buck that just stood there in front of me and let me shoot it, etc.

Guess I don't have the mindset to be a true "trophy hunter"............I don't understand why someone would pass up hunting a nice animal just because of a few inches and it wouldn't get one's name in "the book".

+1.
Great minds think alike.
As I now grow old and look back, it is the great satisfaction of knowing that I trained thoroughly, then hunted quietly, stalked in close and made a clean shot that really matters, not some fraction of an inch in horn or tooth.

 

[johnnyblues]

I'll put my two cent's in here if I may. Realizing I can only speak as someone without African experience at least until this September comes. Here is how I look at things. While hunting Whitetail here in the States I tell my outfitter I am looking for at least a 150 class buck, I will not hunt where I don't have a very reasonable chance at that class. What I am really hoping for secretly is 160 inch class, and I have been lucky to take 2 in that class, but it's cost me plenty of money on whitetail hunts. Two years ago I made my second hunt to New Zealand for Red Stag and fallow deer, I realize that is a different story completely and realize it's a much more controlled environment. That being said when I hunt Namibia this year I would hope for a large male leopard not one that "looks" small in pictures, I do realize all leopards are a hard earned trophy. Now as far as plains game goes I would want to harvest plains game that when someone who knows African animals better than I do say's "that's a good trophy of the species", and that's where I rely on my PH. If he allows me shoot an animal he say's that's not a good one and it's not well then shame on him. I am not a man of unlimited means so I need to trust my PH. I guess this is just one man's opinion on what's a trophy. For me needs to be a good representative of the species.

 

[Diamondhitch]

This is certainly relative to the species.

Before going on I will say my best trophy is a whitetail that I spent 3 years and countless hours pursuing. Needless to say with that much effort, he was big, however I have taken animals that simply by score are far better including 3 top 10 animals by bow. While they are treasured, the whitetail is still by far my most cherished. This type of effort is certainly not practical on safari and with limited time there is only so much of a relationship that can be developed with any specific animal, no matter how elusive we find him, so we need to use a different perspective.

At home here a 150" is the benchmark of a trophy whitetail. This is the minimum size outfitters aim at for most clients, smaller bucks inevitably end up harvested but 150" is the target. As reference SCI minimums are bronze 125" Silver 138 4/8 Gold 152 6/8". Most bucks that do not make silver are not yet mature <4yrs old.

With Mule deer, 170" is the magic number. SCI bronze 151" Silver 166 4/8" Gold 182 1/8"

300" is the standard for trophy elk. SCI bronze 264" Silver 310 7/8" Gold 349 4/8".

There is certainly a radical difference between trophy status and SCI medal status.

The one thing that remains constant is that animals that do not make SCI are either quite young or broke up to the extreme. Most animals that do not make Silver are also young animals near maturity but not quite there yet. Gold medal trophies tend to be in their prime carrying their best or close to the best rack they will ever grow.

An old worn or broken animal that has regressed back to bronze can be a trophy but young animals in this class are not. Extremely broken animals do not appeal to me regardless of age (Sheep are of course an exception).

As a comparison to Africa, The average animal I have taken there scores well into silver medal class. Many golds and a few bronze animals make up the balance. I would be unhappy with an obviously young animal or an old one that was genetically inferior. These animals would both fall in the class of culls to me.

Long story short, there is more to the equation than score but if pressed for a something tangible such as score, I would say low bronze is a cull, mid-Bronze are good representatives provided they are mature, Silver are trophies and gold are exceptional trophies. Intentionally setting out to shoot young animals is certainly a cull hunt IMO.

 

[UKHunter]

On my first safari I had no clue as to what would make the mark as a trophy animal. I had seen pictures on here of different animals and I had a good idea of what one would look like when shot but not when judging in the field. This is where I placed my trust in my PH. I had paid for a mixed package of trophy and cull animals but I had specifically said that I would really like to get a big Warthog. There is just something about them.

Now all the 'trophy' animals I shot would measure up to be trophy's and I got the Warthog I dreamed of, which would make Rowland award if I have it measured but that this is not the only part of them that makes them a trophy for me. There are other influences such as the hunt, the company, the good times and the hard which play their role.

During the safari while hunting we came across a troop of baboons, my PH offered the chance to shoot one to me for free, which I obliged and took a very big male. Later on we came across some Warthogs and again my PH knew I loved to hunt them and said; 'I need some Warthog meat to make sausages, would you save me the bullet?' so I did. When my friend and I had shot all of our animals we had a few days to spare so he invited his friend over with his pack of hounds to go after bushpig, for no extra fee.

It was all these little and big gestures that for me made not just the animals I took trophy's but made the trip a trophy of a lifetime I will never forget.

 

[UKHunter]

I also have a question for the PH's and outfitters on here;

It has been mentioned by people in this thread that to them a trophy is old animal, battle scared and past his prime with plenty of character, which I would agree with them on. Now to me from a management point of view this animal would also be a cull animal here in England, as he is no longer contributing to the herd and will be time to let a younger stronger male take over and pass on his genes.

So as an outfitter or PH when a clients wants to hunt a cull animal do you just shoot the first juvenile male or female to step out or do you hunt just as hard to find the right animal, be it a baron female or the buck as described above?