What is a proper "stopping rifle" and load for dangerous game?

[Nhoro]

Opens up a can of worms though- Guys are going to be arguing whether to use grape shot or ball on buffalo. Elephant is obvious, ball only. Lion is also obvious-grape. But buffalo is that in between decision.

I vote grape shot first shot and ball from then on.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Opens up a can of worms though- Guys are going to be arguing whether to use grape shot or ball on buffalo. Elephant is obvious, ball only. Lion is also obvious-grape. But buffalo is that in between decision.

I vote grape shot first shot and ball from then on.

Wrong. Ball is for PHs only. The client doesn't need ball. Stay in your lane! Hahaha!

 

[calling4life]

I like this topic because it's brought up regarding bears a lot as well, and I live in bear country.

Is there a general widely accepted definition when it comes to "stopping rifle/caliber?"

Would it be wise to conclude that a stopping rifle/cartridge be a rifle that majorly, even with a missed brain shot (but within a margin, say an inch or maybe two?), will still end the charge or give plenty of time and safety for the follow up kill shot. This is also plenty of time for Average Joe, not movie star took 10,000 takes and is edited to be lightning fast magic type second shot.

I also wouldn't want to rely on the idea that you'll turn the animal, stopper, let's talk stopping.

John Taylor noted that a 600 NE with a missed brain shot may knock an elephant out for up to a half an hour.
Love him or hate him, Mark Sullivan, in his DVDs, generally running a 600 NE or a 577 NE has multiple charges where even he notes the brain was missed by an initial shot or two, and you can see it.
This is important, because when you watch, you see an animal that is still stopped/incapacitated even with a MISSED brain shot. This happens on Cape Buffalo and Hippo in his DVDs, including one cape buffalo where he blows the lower jaw off, something that looks like it would wake even the sleepiest coma patient.
It's also important because I believe he noted his first cape buffalo charge was with a 500NE, the first shot between the eyes missed brain just low and it was noted it had no effect on the buffalo, the second shot then hitting brain and shutting the buffalo down. So, 500 NE had no effect with the miss, where, in later videos we see the 600 or 577 do what needed to be done with a miss. So do we need 577/600 NE level numbers for buffalo...

The question then becomes what does it take to, a majority of the time, incapacitate said animal. Is it a ft/lbs number, is it 7,000+ on elephant, 5,000+ on buffalo etc...
Is it a combination, will bullet diameter really come into play here, for example, to knock out or the like, a buffalo, will it take 5,000+ ft/lbs in a 500+ caliber, but step to say, a 458, and now you need 6,000 +?

I'd cut gun and bullet construction out of this for this specific part. It has to be a given we're using quality here. I can't see expanding vs solid being a factor, unless one wants to argue the potential that a solid may pass through without dumping all energy, thus being less effective, perhaps, I suppose. Then expanding, but at what risk... IDK that this needs to be discussed yet.

I've got to think ft/lbs has got to be the big factor here, perhaps the only factor here, again, talking a head shot, missed brain but that was the aim, and given bullet is sufficient to penetrate skull.

How many here have shot a buffalo in the head, missed brain, but knocked that bull down still?

What were you using, bullet type, ft/lbs of energy? side of head, straight on?

Making a chart of instances like this would likely be the best way to determine this, what does it take on an elephant, a cape buffalo, a leopard, a brown bear, etc... one may be vastly different from the next and you may find the Australian water buffalo needing 7,000+ ft/lbs while the cape buffalo needs 5,000+, assuming because the animal is similar that like is needed may prove perilous.

Pro hunter vs. regular hunter becoming moot, again, remove variables that don't need to be there. What it takes to stop is what it takes to stop, the question of whether or not you can shoot it comes later and is personal enough to be about moot anyway. Also moot because, if it takes 600 NE or greater numbers but you can't shoot it, well, that doesn't magically make the 416 Rigby work, it just means you won't be using a stopper in this sense. Doesn't mean the 416 Rigby isn't good either, just means you better hit brain or you're relying on someone else to stop it.

Or do we want to define a "stopping" firearm/cartridge differently, I can't see why we would, to stop means to stop, it needs to stop the animal, not always, because life just isn't that simple, but majorly enough that you'd stake your life on it time and time again.
We know what Mark Sullivan had, he has stopped double digit numbers of charges at his feet, we know upon which he relied, 600 NE and 577NE. He did stake his life on it, time and time again.

The definition of stopper has to be defined here or we spin our tires.

 

[Rum Runner]

Forgive my ignorance here, but with soft points being such good quality (such as a Swift A-Frames and such), are solids required? Personally, I'd rather stick with an A-Frame...

 

[Rum Runner]

If I were a PH, my opinion mat be different!

 

[Rum Runner]

*may* be different.

 

[rookhawk]

Forgive my ignorance here, but with soft points being such good quality (such as a Swift A-Frames and such), are solids required? Personally, I'd rather stick with an A-Frame...

A soft point bullet can kill an animal in mere seconds. Unfortunately, a stopping rifle must stop a charge instantaneously, not within seconds. That means a hole so big you can push a bowling ball through with a soft is poor consolation if you didn't cause neurological shock dropping the animal at full charge from as little as 2-3 meters from you. Solids in the brain are what stops an animal instantly. And if the animal isn't presenting a clean brain shot, a solid may bore a straight hole through boss, bone, or trees on its way to the brain and spine whereas a soft is deflecting, expanding, and depleting energy before it gets to the central nervous system.

And yes, for a client like you or me, a swift a-frame is a wonderful bullet that kills in seconds to minutes, one of the best!

The only "must use" situations for a client to use a solid would be elephant or white rhino where a soft simply will lose too much energy prior to getting to the vitals or the brain. Everything else is the professional's preference for his client. Sometimes PHs like you to use solids for buffalo, or solids for the 2nd shot on a buffalo. Some professionals like you to use a solid in a smallbore for braining a crocodile as well. But again, this paragraph diverts from "stopping rifle" and "stopping bullet" into the foray of best bullet for a client to use to ensure you recover your game, not the bullet that is used for the express purpose of saving human life.

 

[rookhawk]

@calling4life I just wanted to compliment your post. I thought it was thoughtful and posited some great questions.

 

[Professor Mawla]

A soft point bullet can kill an animal in mere seconds. Unfortunately, a stopping rifle must stop a charge instantaneously, not within seconds. That means a hole so big you can push a bowling ball through with a soft is poor consolation if you didn't cause neurological shock dropping the animal at full charge from as little as 2-3 meters from you. Solids in the brain are what stops an animal instantly. And if the animal isn't presenting a clean brain shot, a solid may bore a straight hole through boss, bone, or trees on its way to the brain and spine whereas a soft is deflecting, expanding, and depleting energy before it gets to the central nervous system.

And yes, for a client like you or me, a swift a-frame is a wonderful bullet that kills in seconds to minutes, one of the best!

The only "must use" situations for a client to use a solid would be elephant or white rhino where a soft simply will lose too much energy prior to getting to the vitals or the brain. Everything else is the professional's preference for his client. Sometimes PHs like you to use solids for buffalo, or solids for the 2nd shot on a buffalo. Some professionals like you to use a solid in a smallbore for braining a crocodile as well. But again, this paragraph diverts from "stopping rifle" and "stopping bullet" into the foray of best bullet for a client to use to ensure you recover your game, not the bullet that is used for the express purpose of saving human life.

@rookhawk
Your assessment is 100 % correct . A shot to the brain or the spine of a charging dangerous game animal , is the only way to bring about instant death .

For body shots ( such as heart or lung shots ) , a larger calibre and heavier bullet ( being propelled at an adequate velocity ) produce more shock to the central nervous system of the animal . It also punches larger wound cavities into the animal ( which in turn accelerates blood loss and causes the animal to hemorrhage ) . Death will be extremely swift , but not instant .

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk
Your assessment is 100 % correct . A shot to the brain or the spine of a charging dangerous game animal , is the only way to bring about instant death .
View attachment 371170

Exceptional shooting Professor Mawla!

 

[Professor Mawla]

Exceptional shooting Professor Mawla!

@rookhawk
Thank you very much . The credit goes to my friend , Niyazur who was holding the six cell torchlight . Were it not for him keeping the torchlight steady , then I would not be among the living today .

 

[Roller]

I like this topic because it's brought up regarding bears a lot as well, and I live in bear country.

Is there a general widely accepted definition when it comes to "stopping rifle/caliber?"

Would it be wise to conclude that a stopping rifle/cartridge be a rifle that majorly, even with a missed brain shot (but within a margin, say an inch or maybe two?), will still end the charge or give plenty of time and safety for the follow up kill shot. This is also plenty of time for Average Joe, not movie star took 10,000 takes and is edited to be lightning fast magic type second shot.

I also wouldn't want to rely on the idea that you'll turn the animal, stopper, let's talk stopping.

John Taylor noted that a 600 NE with a missed brain shot may knock an elephant out for up to a half an hour.
Love him or hate him, Mark Sullivan, in his DVDs, generally running a 600 NE or a 577 NE has multiple charges where even he notes the brain was missed by an initial shot or two, and you can see it.
This is important, because when you watch, you see an animal that is still stopped/incapacitated even with a MISSED brain shot. This happens on Cape Buffalo and Hippo in his DVDs, including one cape buffalo where he blows the lower jaw off, something that looks like it would wake even the sleepiest coma patient.
It's also important because I believe he noted his first cape buffalo charge was with a 500NE, the first shot between the eyes missed brain just low and it was noted it had no effect on the buffalo, the second shot then hitting brain and shutting the buffalo down. So, 500 NE had no effect with the miss, where, in later videos we see the 600 or 577 do what needed to be done with a miss. So do we need 577/600 NE level numbers for buffalo...

The question then becomes what does it take to, a majority of the time, incapacitate said animal. Is it a ft/lbs number, is it 7,000+ on elephant, 5,000+ on buffalo etc...
Is it a combination, will bullet diameter really come into play here, for example, to knock out or the like, a buffalo, will it take 5,000+ ft/lbs in a 500+ caliber, but step to say, a 458, and now you need 6,000 +?

I'd cut gun and bullet construction out of this for this specific part. It has to be a given we're using quality here. I can't see expanding vs solid being a factor, unless one wants to argue the potential that a solid may pass through without dumping all energy, thus being less effective, perhaps, I suppose. Then expanding, but at what risk... IDK that this needs to be discussed yet.

I've got to think ft/lbs has got to be the big factor here, perhaps the only factor here, again, talking a head shot, missed brain but that was the aim, and given bullet is sufficient to penetrate skull.

How many here have shot a buffalo in the head, missed brain, but knocked that bull down still?

What were you using, bullet type, ft/lbs of energy? side of head, straight on?

Making a chart of instances like this would likely be the best way to determine this, what does it take on an elephant, a cape buffalo, a leopard, a brown bear, etc... one may be vastly different from the next and you may find the Australian water buffalo needing 7,000+ ft/lbs while the cape buffalo needs 5,000+, assuming because the animal is similar that like is needed may prove perilous.

Pro hunter vs. regular hunter becoming moot, again, remove variables that don't need to be there. What it takes to stop is what it takes to stop, the question of whether or not you can shoot it comes later and is personal enough to be about moot anyway. Also moot because, if it takes 600 NE or greater numbers but you can't shoot it, well, that doesn't magically make the 416 Rigby work, it just means you won't be using a stopper in this sense. Doesn't mean the 416 Rigby isn't good either, just means you better hit brain or you're relying on someone else to stop it.

Or do we want to define a "stopping" firearm/cartridge differently, I can't see why we would, to stop means to stop, it needs to stop the animal, not always, because life just isn't that simple, but majorly enough that you'd stake your life on it time and time again.
We know what Mark Sullivan had, he has stopped double digit numbers of charges at his feet, we know upon which he relied, 600 NE and 577NE. He did stake his life on it, time and time again.

The definition of stopper has to be defined here or we spin our tires.

"How many here have shot a buffalo in the head, missed brain, but knocked that bull down still?

What were you using, bullet type, ft/lbs of energy? side of head, straight on?"

This is what I would like to hear more of as well. Excellent post BTW.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@rookhawk
Thank you very much . The credit goes to my friend , Niyazur who was holding the six cell torchlight . Were it not for him keeping the torchlight steady , then I would not be among the living today .

Hello Professor,
What made the hole in the head of the tiger?
Best,
Forrest

 

[Professor Mawla]

Hello Professor,
What made the hole in the head of the tiger?
Best,
Forrest

@Forrest Halley
It was a 510 grain Winchester Super Speed soft nosed factory load fired from my .458 Winchester Magnum .

 

[ChrisG]

These conversations always end up with someone being offended. I feel like thats all the fruit these kind of questions bear. No shoulder fired weapon that doesnt destroy masses of nerve tissue is going guarantee a stop. For that, I would recommend something that carries a few ounces of stored chemical energy in the projectile... preferably with like a 30us delay fuse.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@ChrisG I'm offended that you didn't pick a caliber and mud wrestle with the pigs like the rest of us. Are you too good for us?

 

[Scott CWO]

"How many here have shot a buffalo in the head, missed brain, but knocked that bull down still?

What were you using, bullet type, ft/lbs of energy? side of head, straight on?"

This is what I would like to hear more of as well. Excellent post BTW.

On the straight-on, standing buffalo at 10 yards in the picture that I posted, it’s nose was angled up slightly, either due to trying to see us above the high grass or trying to wind us or both. I didn’t like the angle so I opted for a shot just under the jaw that I figured would break the neck/spine, which it did. The bullet was a 500 grain Barnes X bullet. Jamie Wilson and a couple other PHs have told me they don’t think a solid is necessary with a .458 Lott for buffalo, even for follow up shots. However, with a .375 H&H, they recommended the follow up shots to be a with a solid.

My buffalo wasn’t charging so not quite as dangerous or as tough of a shot as a charging buffalo with a lower head, requiring a brain shot. Jaime said we were very lucky it didn’t charge since it was wounded by a lion, disturbed from it’s bed and in high grass. Jaime also carried a .458 Lott but I don’t remember his bullet or load. All of my PHs have carried an open sighted Lott or a .470 NE as a stopper.

From what I have read and been told, solids are the rule for an elephant brain shot or stopping an elephant charge head-on.

 

[Nhoro]

I think a thread like this has merit if people learn the facts and then make up their mind from there.

I carry a 458 Lott. I take kids camps (ages 12-18) about 2-3 times a year at RIFA education camp and elsewhere. So we walk in Big 4 territory. I am not hunting or conducting hunts much.

Therefore I class myself as guiding. Generally accepted self defense shooting is considered to be around 10 m. I would not get a second shot (even a double would be some pretty sharp shooting at that range. So I chose a larger caliber to hopefully get a little help.

Shooting wise, I have just done my guides test, I dropped 1 point in 12 shots ie 11 bulls and 1 in the first ring outside that. But I will tell you that in the last 5 shoots for the exams,the best scores have always been 375 h&h.

I don't think anyone can argue with simple logic:

1. Accuracy is paramount. A shot in the brain= death. And recoil reduces accuracy. Use what you can shoot well and dont be afraid to go down to a 375 rather than shoot badly.

2. A bigger hole is better.Penetration of all of the common rifles is plenty for the job at hand.

Softs or solids-again it is understanding the facts and then making your decision. Softs for buffaloyes you can stick with them. When would you prefer solids-when you are looking at the tail end of a buffalo. Also for charging buff a solids can penetrate deep breaking the spine or neck and damaging lungs/heart/liver/spleen. So if he knocks you down, you hope he expires before he can spend 15 mins squishing you.

 

[daawg1963]

Should the caliber start with a "4" or is a 375 enough gun? What about a 375 with solids? Or a 338 magnum with 250 grain solids or monolithic bullets for that matter? Double rifle or magazine fed? Will a shot that doesn't penetrate into the brain or spine still "turn" a charging animal? Will a shot with a 30 caliber that does penetrate the brain or spine still "stop" the charge? Open question, but particularly interested in buffalo.

haha depends if its pissed and charging buff 460 weatherby my 378 kills 1 shot tho

 

[IvW]

On the straight-on, standing buffalo at 10 yards in the picture that I posted, it’s nose was angled up slightly, either due to trying to see us above the high grass or trying to wind us or both. I didn’t like the angle so I opted for a shot just under the jaw that I figured would break the neck/spine, which it did. The bullet was a 500 grain Barnes X bullet. Jamie Wilson and a couple other PHs have told me they don’t think a solid is necessary with a .458 Lott for buffalo, even for follow up shots. However, with a .375 H&H, they recommended the follow up shots to be a with a solid.

My buffalo wasn’t charging so not quite as dangerous or as tough of a shot as a charging buffalo with a lower head, requiring a brain shot. Jaime said we were very lucky it didn’t charge since it was wounded by a lion, disturbed from it’s bed and in high grass. Jaime also carried a .458 Lott but I don’t remember his bullet or load. All of my PHs have carried an open sighted Lott or a .470 NE as a stopper.

From what I have read and been told, solids are the rule for an elephant brain shot or stopping an elephant charge head-on.

Perfect shot placement for the situation. Much larger margin for error and it is devastating. No need for solids on frontal for buffalo, charging or not. The right caliber with the right expanding bullet will penetrate more than enough and create much more damage than a solid.