What caliber and the pros and cons of each

[matt85]

i wouldnt rely on those recoil number too much... they dont translate well into actual felt recoil. according to most calculators my 505 Gibbs generates between 100 and 120 ft/lb of recoil but i can assure you its actually pretty easy to shoot.

13 pounds is MUCH too heavy for a 450 NE! anything over 11 pounds is excessive for this chambering. only time i want over 11+ pounds is when we are talking 500 NE or bigger.

-matt

 

[glh]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. Thank you for all the posts and help. I am not as worried about the recoil at this point. I recently purchased a .300 win mag bolt action that weighs 6.5 pounds (installed the Limbsaver Airtech before even shooting it). I calculated the recoil for that rifle and the ammo I was using and it came out to 36.5 ft-lb's of recoil with a recoil velocity of 19 fps (may be even more depending on how much powder the factory ammo I was shooting is actually loaded with. I think I am going to go with the 450 NE 3 1/4". According to the recoil calculations, in the configuration I am going to have it in ( 13 pound rifle using a 500 gr. bullet at 2150 fps has around 42 ft-lb"s of recoil and a recoil velocity of 14.5). I will still be using the Limbsaver recoil pad on it though.

Your choice of the .450-3.25" is wise.Your assumption of 2150 fps out a .450-3.25" with 500 gr. bullet is pushing the chamber pessure envelop of a double rifle.First of all,13 lb. is excessive and 10-11 lb. much more sensible unless you do not plan to carry the rifle very much.Much of the total gun weight will be determined by the weight of your barrels,find a barrel maker who will contour them in the lightest contour possible or you will be over 11 lb.
All the paper calculations about recoil levels is pretty much bunk,if the gun is properly balanced and stocked correctly it will be fine.A custom stock from someone who knows about properly stocking a double is money well spent.
Good Luck!

 

[Scott Slough]

No problem, I appreciate you pointing that out, as I like my information to be as correct as possible. I may go with the 450 NE, as I plan to make the rifle 12 pounds and use the LimbSaver recoil pad. Does anybody use these recoil pads on their big bore rifles? If so, how effective would you say they are? Thanks for the replies, keep them coming!

If you are building your OWN rifle for YOU to shoot, I hope you are a little obsessive about correct information. Measure once ... blow your head off! Measure twice ... machine once!!

 

[TSR]

Your choice of the .450-3.25" is wise.Your assumption of 2150 fps out a .450-3.25" with 500 gr. bullet is pushing the chamber pessure envelop of a double rifle.First of all,13 lb. is excessive and 10-11 lb. much more sensible unless you do not plan to carry the rifle very much.Much of the total gun weight will be determined by the weight of your barrels,find a barrel maker who will contour them in the lightest contour possible or you will be over 11 lb.
All the paper calculations about recoil levels is pretty much bunk,if the gun is properly balanced and stocked correctly it will be fine.A custom stock from someone who knows about properly stocking a double is money well spent.
Good Luck!

Thanks for the info. Huh, in the book African Dangerous Game Cartridges, there are several 500 gr loads listed. In any case, I plan to load it to have a velocity of 2050 or 2000. Trying to find load data this point. When I thought of the 13 pounds, I figured I could train around the weight. However, If you say the 11 pounds would be sufficient, I may go with that. What I ultimately need to do is find someone here in Utah that would allow me to fire a round or two off (I would willingly pay for the round being fired) and get the full experience before deciding on the weight and other things. Thanks for the help, you, as well as others, have given me many things to think about.

 

[matt85]

a 500gr bullet at 2050fps from a 24" barrel is much more realistic for the 450 NE 3.25". the tradtitional load would be a 480gr bullet at around 2150fps from a 28" barrel.

11 pounds is an excellent weight for the 450 NE 3.25" as long as the gun is decently balanced with most of the weight towards the rear of the gun.

-matt

 

[Velo Dog]

11 pound is about perfect for the .450 NE and 10 is not an outrage.
I'm a recoil whimp and 11 pounds is not too terribly light for me in the .500 NE chambering, with the classic 570 gr bullet, soft or solid, at about 2125 fps.
(But it is getting down there in weight).
Therefore, in caliber .450 NE, 11 pounds would be a very fine rifle weight, as long as it balances properly (like Matt85 and others have already said).
At the end of the day, it is delightfully surprising how much recoil a hunter's shoulder can take if he or she makes up their mind to train into it gradually (with a properly fitting rifle or shotgun).

 

[matt85]

At the end of the day, it is delightfully surprising how much recoil a hunter's shoulder can take if he or she makes up their mind to train into it gradually (with a properly fitting rifle or shotgun).

+1

ive fired some incredibly powerful rifles with recoil well above what any person should ever want to shoot. i can tell you if you train yourself to shoot these large bore guns its actually fairly easy. ive taken a number people who have never fired any thing bigger then a 30-06 and taught them to shoot a 505 Gibbs with just some basic lessons.

450 NE 3.25" = 480gr/500gr at around 2050fps
505 Gibbs = 525gr at 2300fps or 600gr at 2100fps

the 450 NE 3.25" is actually pretty light by large bore standards and should be easy to master in a proper rifle with a little practice and technique.

-matt

 

[TSR]

Well in that case I will try to keep it around 11 pounds or so. If I need to, I can always add a little weight later on. Does anybody know of a hand load for the 450 NE 3 1/4, using the Barnes 500 gr. TSX? Thanks for all the help.

 

[matt85]

thats not normally a bullet you would use in the 450 NE 3.25" but im betting you could get it to work with some careful tinkering. Barnes take up a great deal more room in the case then standard lead bullets because copper weighs less then lead. ive never seen data for Barnes bullets in the 450 NE cartridge so im pretty sure you would have to come up with a oad on your own.

given the low velocity of the cartridge i would actually recommend the 480gr Woodleigh RN bullet. this is pretty much the traditional bullet style for this cartridge and has proven very effective for over 100 years.

-matt

 

[glh]

thats not normally a bullet you would use in the 450 NE 3.25" but im betting you could get it to work with some careful tinkering. Barnes take up a great deal more room in the case then standard lead bullets because copper weighs less then lead. ive never seen data for Barnes bullets in the 450 NE cartridge so im pretty sure you would have to come up with a oad on your own.

given the low velocity of the cartridge i would actually recommend the 480gr Woodleigh RN bullet. this is pretty much the traditional bullet style for this cartridge and has proven very effective for over 100 years.

-matt

The 480 gr. bullets are most commonly recommended in the .450-3.25" and there are several good ones that would serve very well.The 500 gr. Barnes may be difficult to regulate when matched with a conventional solid and you will want to be able to shoot both.I believe the .450- 3.25" was originally developed with the 480 gr. bullet and it has carried on throughout the years.I don't think any animal would know the difference after being hit with 500 gr. or 480 gr. as long as velocities were similar.
The best load data I've found for many of these nitro cartridges is the A-Square Any Shot You Want manual,much good pressure tested loadings.Have also found that these manual suggested loads regulate well as compared to the Hornady factory stuff.
Many of these doubles have a somewhat anemic firing pin strike and will not work well with a "hard" primer.Have had the best results with the Fed. 215 and confident that it will ignite just about any powder charge.
I keep thinking of this stuff and will try to post more as it comes to me.

 

[Pondoro]

I am shooting an english double in .475 3.25 NE....this is a .450 necked up to 0.483..

I get an average of 2150fps over the crono with Kynoch factory...480 grain woodleigh from a 23" barrel..

Yesterday I got a 65mm group at 40 yards with this ammo....so the rifle seems to be regulated for such a velocity...

Is this higher velocity than average in these calibers..?

 

[matt85]

I am shooting an english double in .475 3.25 NE....this is a .450 necked up to 0.483..

I get an average of 2150fps over the crono with Kynoch factory...480 grain woodleigh from a 23" barrel..

Yesterday I got a 65mm group at 40 yards with this ammo....so the rifle seems to be regulated for such a velocity...

Is this higher velocity than average in these calibers..?

with a 23" barrel id say 2150fps is higher then normal. but if its working then who cares.

-matt

 

[Heym 88]

matt.....did you get your rifle from Butch yet, I haven't been on here in a while so wasn't sure I missed anything.

 

[matt85]

matt.....did you get your rifle from Butch yet, I haven't been on here in a while so wasn't sure I missed anything.

nope

-matt

 

[Heym 88]

man that sucks, but I now butch is doing all he can with his disabilities. I just hope like hell I have no issues with mine, so far so good.

 

[matt85]

i get the feeling im not very important, i would not recommend Searcy rifles. seems most of them were pretty decent guns but if there is a flaw with any of you you can pretty much expect to be ignored. he has had my rifle for around a year now and not so much as an email or a call in the last 7 months saying he would be getting around to it any time soon.

im not really sure what to do... i have $11,000 wrapped up into the rifle and as it stands its not really fit for use or even fit to sell. it sorta works as long as you never plan to reload for the cartridge but seeing as its chambered in 500/416 NE you arent likely to find factory ammunition.

-matt

 

[Heym 88]

well I sure hope you get it back with no issues, you certainly deserve it.

 

[Pheroze]

well I sure hope you get it back with no issues, you certainly deserve it.

I agree. Sounds like a terribly disrespectful approach to a person who is quick to help others. I hope this is resolved soon.

 

[matt85]

thank you Pheroze, i really hope i can get the rifle back fixed at some point in the near future.

-matt

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I am going to be building a double rifle as my final project in my machining school (if I can find a blasted blueprint for a boxlock action, if anybody knows a source please tell), but I am having a hard time choosing a caliber. Originally I was going to use the .375 H&H Mag. as my cartridge, but according to Ellis Browns book, it is a high intensity round as far as pressure goes. My other two options I am looking at are the 450/400 NE 3", and the 450 NE. I wish to have answers broken up into categories, such as strengths and weaknesses of each, ease of, cost of, and availability of, reloading and reloading supplies, recoil (I am going to be putting LimbSavers AirTech pad on this so it should take the recoil down a bit), and any other info that would help. Any help on this is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

TSR...........was wondering how your project Double is coming along. I wanted to ask you and the rest of the AH community a question on the 375 H&H as a double rifle caliber. From my reading and research, I thought the H&H was not used in doubles and the 375 Flange was.