Westley Richards .500 Nitro Express

[Pondoro]

16 tons is the correct working pressure for the .500 3" NE according to this:

http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/500 Nitro Express 3in.html

You seem overly sceptic on this Roohawk..?

The working pressure for the .500/465 NE is 14 tons according to this:

http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/500-465 NE.html

 

[Russ-F]

I keep asking for a muzzle diameter because I don’t trust the proof house. The gun isn’t what it says it is by all data provided, and the proof house couldn’t even spell tons correctly. (TCNS)

Inspector I in 1956 may have been having a sloppy day overall.

There’s no spelling mistake as regards ‘TONS’ (TCNS). It’s a single multi-letter stamp which can become a bit worn or chipped in places & that’s what’s happened here with the O looking like a C.

 

[Russ-F]

A couple thoughts from the peanut gallery here. Please don't take it as casting shade on your gun, its a British made double rifle, so it isn't all bad.

The gun has been worked over in a number of troubling ways. Take stock in everything @Red Leg wrote herein.

The gun is the lowest grade double rifle Westley Richards made, and the crudeness of it is significantly below what we call a "gold letter" model from the 189-1910 era guns. Nonetheless, saying its the worst Westley Richards ever made is like saying the Ferrari 308GT is the worst car they made in the past 40 years...it's still a ferrari! The labeling (gold inlay) is really rough...not anything like the steady hand of the several WR gold letter models I've owned which causes me to raise an eyebrow at what I'm seeing.

35,840psi is the proof pressure listed on the proof marks. The 16 tons per Square was BRITISH LONG TONS so please make sure to keep that in mind. So the 3" 500NE has a proof pressure of 40,600 psi so its safe to say that indeed, this is not a "Full, modern, 3" 500 NE" gun. So what is it? Chamber cast is essential to find out if its a 3-1/4" chambered gun. Shooting 3" loads could have caused some fairly serious issues to the gun so getting it inspected is important at this point. Also, VERY CAUTIONARY warning as the bushed strikers look wrong. They are bulging out of the action in an odd way. Please do NOT fire this gun as it is right now. Something is very wrong.

Some data points to try to figure out what it might be based on proof marks. 500 Nitro for Black Express 3" had a service pressure of 11 tons per square, so the 16 tons per square proof pressure would be a possible option. The service pressure of 500NE 3" was 16 tons per square, so that matches the proof pressure of 16 tons per square, ruling that out as an option. (proof pressure for safety testing is higher than working/service pressure) So it isn't for a 3" 500NE with a 570gr bullet and 80 grains of cordite at 2150fps out of a 28" barrel...it has to be something less than that.

I would pay Wesley Richards to run a history and build report on the gun, their notes might say exactly what it was. It could be some 500 3-1/4" light nitro odd-ball using a lighter bullet, many strange things were made. The "BNP" mark for Birmingham Nitro Proof at least indicates its a nitro load of some sort, not black powder only. The proof mark just says ".500" which is an odd mark compared to all that I've seen and owned to date as well. Definitely worth a chamber cast to make sure its not a 500-465, 500-416, 500-something-else.

Update: there is a circa 1957 WR that sold through one of the normal dealers awhile back. Virtually identical to your gun in fit/finish. Even the less than professional gold name compared to the earlier years. It weighed 10lbs 7 ounces. It was a 500-465 NE. I'd weigh your gun to see if that matches yours? The case length was often 3-1/4" and the service pressure of 14 tpsi would match the 16tpsi proof pressure well also. The 500-465 is a 500NE case necked down to hold a .470 caliber bullet. That would all add up nicely to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

There’s nothing to suggest it’s anything other than a normal 3” chambered .500 NE

The pressure displayed is the service pressure - not the pressure the proof rounds produced. It’s correct for the normal .500 x 3” NE load.

After 1954 proof marks normally displayed just the service pressure which a firearm was proofed for rather than the shot charge or bullet weight/powder charge. Plus of course nominal bore size & chamber length.

Here’s one example cribbed from the Lewis Drake website showing post 1954 marks on a .375 H&H

 

[Thomas Rutledge]

Large Bore Greener .577 Rifle

• Thomas Rutledge
• Sep 13, 2018

Is this a proof pressure or a service pressure?

Thanks.

 

[Russ-F]

Thomas,
Your gun was reproved in 1994 under different rules of proof to the Westley Richards .500 which this thread relates to.

The British proof regulations started to change from 1984 to allow the use of metric units & proof marking conventions - one aspect of which was the adoption of the actual ‘proof pressure’ being marked on the barrels rather than the ‘service pressure’. However guns could still be optionally proofed until 1989 using the imperial measures including the ‘service pressure’. For example a shotgun of mine was made in 1986 & was marked with the service pressure in tons.

In general terms if a Birmingham or London proofed / reproofed gun has imperial measure marks (i.e. Tons) then the indicated pressure will be the ‘service’ pressure (i.e. the working pressure). If the gun was proofed or reproofed after 1989 & the pressure markings are in metric units then it will be the actual ‘proof pressure’ that’s indicated.

This does not in itself change the allowable ammunition of course - it’s just different ways of marking the proof procedure.

Frankly the vast majority of double rifles were made & proofed using the imperial measures & thus marked with the service pressure. This of course includes the .500 x 3” NE rifle featured in this thread.

So to simplify even more: ‘Tons’ = service/working pressure.

 

[rookhawk]

So to answer the riddle, the proof mark of the script for 2840 bar is the crossed swords, V-2-C. That is the 1994 Birmingham proof marks.

According to @Russ-F , in 1994 they were using Proof pressure. The 2840 bar translates to 41480.79 PSI.

The Kynoch 1902-1903 Original Ballistics for the 577 x 3 inch Nitro Express using 100gr of Cordite and a 750 grain bullet out of a 30" proof barrel at an observed 2100fps was at 15.0 tons per square inch. That would translate to 33,600psi.

So if my math and assumptions, coupled with @Russ-F 's claims, the PSI of 41,480 Proof Pressure would greatly exceed the service pressure of PSI 33,600 meaning it if in good working order, the gun is able to handle a full 577 NE load.

*Always check your sources yourself, do not rely on my statements.

 

[Thomas Rutledge]

Really an academic question. I would never shoot a full nitro load in my 10.5 lb rifle. I would consider spicing up the load a bit to improve my regulated load but I am pretty close now.

Thanks, Tom

 

[rookhawk]

You didn’t say it was your 10.5lb .577 black powder express rifle in the picture. No, you wouldn’t want to shoot a .577 NE load out of a 10.5 lb gun made in the black powder era.

 

[450/400]

This is a photo of my 1955 Westley Richards ‘White Hunter’ proof and re-proof marks.

 

[Thomas Rutledge]

This is a photo of my 1955 Westley Richards ‘White Hunter’ proof and re-proof marks.View attachment 264319

Great looking ride! More pictures for us to drool over?

Tom

 

[450/400]

Great looking ride! More pictures for us to drool over?

Tom

Just a few quick photos. Don’t want to hijack someone else’s thread.