Wanted 70 lb Elephant

[rookhawk]

Just a quick statement check on how big of elephants are coming out of Africa each year. Where is that data? That data is provided by PHs as bragging rights for their various hunting associations. I know for a fact that many elephants larger than these "biggest ivory of the year" claims are hunted each year.

Reasons why they go unreported, all 100% legal:

1.) The client says "do not tell your buddies about this, respect my privacy

2.) Do not advertise that you take elephants this size, it may cause the antis to jump all over me.

3.) The operator or PH has opted at client's request to hire an "eye in the sky" private plane to search the region for sign of good elephants. If such intelligence is provided to the operator and they drive to that block and get on tracks the next day, that is not acceptable to some of the professional hunter organizations. Again, zero illegal about this but they become inelligible for "biggest elephant of the year" awards in the PH associations.

Bottom line, there are a lot more big elephant out there and lawfully harvested than the claims made by some on this forum. Nothing untoward is going on, but the source of the data isn't the official CITES export paperwork or the national parks official scales, its the reported information as shared and accepted in the politics of PH associations if reported to them at all.

 

[Scott CWO]

Here I have to disagree, respectfully. When I toured the skinning shed in Zimbabwe on my operators "lower quality elephant area" concession I admired the three sets of tusks from the client that just left the week earlier than my arrival, their skulls still next to the shed mostly buried. All three sets were in the mid to high 60s. I was there very, very late in the season so the rains were pushing the elephants into Botswana and there numbers were becoming scarcer by the day. The largest we saw in three days was one 53lbs on both sides while I was there.

Any advice of how great Botswana is for elephant is likely talking about a race of elephants that is migratory from the area of Hwange/Matetsi area of Western and Northwestern Zimbabwe that flows through into Botswana. Arguing that one country is good and the other is not is subjective, as the elephants of this variety are crossing the national boundaries every year.

I recommend Zimbabwe over Botswana for a few reasons. 1.) Price. Zimbabwe is going to be less expensive than the insane prices in Botswana caused by very affluent people flocking to the limited quota hunting that just returned to Bots after a decade of lockdown. 2.) Zimbabwe's accommodations and logistics will be better on the whole because they have been operating every year rather than getting back into the game and making roads for the first time in a decade or more. 3.) US importability. The "case by case basis" determination for USFWS approval to import ivory is very strict. Ultimately, years of financial reports showing ongoing commitment to the local community, sources and uses of funding, hiring from the local community, humanitarian relief by drilling wells and donating to schools, year over year game counts showing healthy numbers, annual spend and results of anti-poaching efforts, financial benefit to the local community, and finally that the death of the individual elephant was a net-benefit to the survival of the species overall.

Point #3 above is going to take years of historical track record in arrears to make for a viable US import application. With Botswana's absence of dangerous game hunting for more than a decade, they will not have the robust data set for these concessions to satisfy the USFWS requirements for case-by-case basis approval of a hunted elephant in my opinion.

I would respectfully disagree with your generalizations in #2 and #3.

Most of the Bots operators have great camps and some are used every year for photo safaris. You must evaluate camps individually, not as a whole. Besides, I hunted from a very comfortable "fly camp" as I was there for the hunting, primarily. The main camp was occupied by a buffalo and leopard hunter who had arrived before me. After he left, I was asked if I wanted to move and I declined. We had everything we needed and the food was excellent.

It is common knowledge that Bots has an overpopulation of ele in many areas and some of the operators have continued to fund the communities in the seven year absence of hunting. Again, do your research on an individual basis and not country by country. Importability was high on my list of criteria and my top consideration was historical size of ivory and location. I hunted a proven area bordering a national park and a game reserve that only allows photographic safaris. The area produced numerous 70+ pounders in the past before hunting was stopped.

As for migration from Zim, yes that helps but the areas surrounding the Okavango Delta/Moremi Game Reserve and Chobe NP do hold their own populations of tuskers with the genetics for big circumferences of ivory.

 

[Scott CWO]

I would also concur with advice to hunt Maswa with Mike Fell for a longer tusked ele that may break 70 pounds. A friend and I will be hunting there with him in 2023 and splitting a full bag, each with our own 21-day licenses. Not sure about importability but bordering the Serengeti NP can't hurt.

 

[WilhelmM]

I would also concur with advice to hunt Maswa with Mike Fell for a longer tusked ele that may break 70 pounds. A friend and I will be hunting there with him in 2023 and splitting a full bag, each with our own 21-day licenses. Not sure about importability but bordering the Serengeti NP can't hurt.

Wish you both good luck. Mike Fell has been hitting the jackpot consistently as of late. His Instagram page has pictures of some incredible specimens for a variety of species. Just out of curiosity... what are you and your friend targeting primarily?

 

[Scott CWO]

Wish you both good luck. Mike Fell has been hitting the jackpot consistently as of late. His Instagram page has pictures of some incredible specimens for a variety of species. Just out of curiosity... what are you and your friend targeting primarily?

We are hunting everything in the full bag but my priority species is a big lion. My friend's priority will be the leopard. He will probably hunt the ele since I just got a big bull in Bots. I will hunt the hippo and him, the croc. We can both hunt two buffalo. I will definitely hunt a topi, Robert's Gazelle, Thompson's Gazelle, Defassa waterbuck, white-bearded wildebeest and a roan if I don't get one in Zambia in 2022. Might also hunt some other plains game? We are bringing our wives for two of the three weeks. Should be a fun trip.

 

[WilhelmM]

We are hunting everything in the full bag but my priority species is a big lion. My friend's priority will be the leopard. He will probably hunt the ele since I just got a big bull in Bots. I will hunt the hippo and him, the croc. We can both hunt two buffalo. I will definitely hunt a topi, Robert's Gazelle, Thompson's Gazelle, Defassa waterbuck, white-bearded wildebeest and a roan if I don't get one in Zambia in 2022. Might also hunt some other plains game? We are bringing our wives for two of the three weeks. Should be a fun trip.

Sounds fantastic

 

[WAB]

Quick update on imports. I was picking up a crate at Coppersmith’s today. In visiting with Michael I asked him if they had seen any approvals on elephant. The answer is no. USFW is supposedly reviewing applications on a case by case basis, but to date, as I understand it, have not approved any. Bottom line, I would not plan on importing ivory from any African country anytime soon.

 

[Scott CWO]

Quick update on imports. I was picking up a crate at Coppersmith’s today. In visiting with Michael I asked him if they had seen any approvals on elephant. The answer is no. USFW is supposedly reviewing applications on a case by case basis, but to date, as I understand it, have not approved any. Bottom line, I would not plan on importing ivory from any African country anytime soon.

Since the lawsuit just concluded successfully, the USFWS has just begun the case by case reviews. It's too early to say either way. The USFWS will have a hard time arguing that Zim and Bots elephants cannot be imported from some of the areas in these countries due to all the work Conservation Force has done with the governments of both countries, the operators and the USFWS. Either way, I am having replicas made.

 

[cal pappas]

How about Jaco Viser of @NKWE SAFARIS in Botswana.

 

[WAB]

Since the lawsuit just concluded successfully, the USFWS has just begun the case by case reviews. It's too early to say either way. The USFWS will have a hard time arguing that Zim and Bots elephants cannot be imported from some of the areas in these countries due to all the work Conservation Force has done with the governments of both countries, the operators and the USFWS. Either way, I am having replicas made.

I hope you’re right. Unfortunately the folks at USFWS are antis and don’t want to allow the import. I totally agree on the replicas. That is the route I will go if I’m fortunate enough to take another bull.

 

[IvW]

Here I have to disagree, respectfully. When I toured the skinning shed in Zimbabwe on my operators "lower quality elephant area" concession I admired the three sets of tusks from the client that just left the week earlier than my arrival, their skulls still next to the shed mostly buried. All three sets were in the mid to high 60s. I was there very, very late in the season so the rains were pushing the elephants into Botswana and there numbers were becoming scarcer by the day. The largest we saw in three days was one 53lbs on both sides while I was there.

Any advice of how great Botswana is for elephant is likely talking about a race of elephants that is migratory from the area of Hwange/Matetsi area of Western and Northwestern Zimbabwe that flows through into Botswana. Arguing that one country is good and the other is not is subjective, as the elephants of this variety are crossing the national boundaries every year.

I recommend Zimbabwe over Botswana for a few reasons. 1.) Price. Zimbabwe is going to be less expensive than the insane prices in Botswana caused by very affluent people flocking to the limited quota hunting that just returned to Bots after a decade of lockdown. 2.) Zimbabwe's accommodations and logistics will be better on the whole because they have been operating every year rather than getting back into the game and making roads for the first time in a decade or more. 3.) US importability. The "case by case basis" determination for USFWS approval to import ivory is very strict. Ultimately, years of financial reports showing ongoing commitment to the local community, sources and uses of funding, hiring from the local community, humanitarian relief by drilling wells and donating to schools, year over year game counts showing healthy numbers, annual spend and results of anti-poaching efforts, financial benefit to the local community, and finally that the death of the individual elephant was a net-benefit to the survival of the species overall.

Point #3 above is going to take years of historical track record in arrears to make for a viable US import application. With Botswana's absence of dangerous game hunting for more than a decade, they will not have the robust data set for these concessions to satisfy the USFWS requirements for case-by-case basis approval of a hunted elephant in my opinion.

3 elephant one client same "lower quality elephant area" in Zim and all three are mid to high 60lbs? I find that very hard to believe....

 

[IvW]

Just a quick statement check on how big of elephants are coming out of Africa each year. Where is that data? That data is provided by PHs as bragging rights for their various hunting associations. I know for a fact that many elephants larger than these "biggest ivory of the year" claims are hunted each year.

Reasons why they go unreported, all 100% legal:

1.) The client says "do not tell your buddies about this, respect my privacy

2.) Do not advertise that you take elephants this size, it may cause the antis to jump all over me.

3.) The operator or PH has opted at client's request to hire an "eye in the sky" private plane to search the region for sign of good elephants. If such intelligence is provided to the operator and they drive to that block and get on tracks the next day, that is not acceptable to some of the professional hunter organizations. Again, zero illegal about this but they become inelligible for "biggest elephant of the year" awards in the PH associations.

Bottom line, there are a lot more big elephant out there and lawfully harvested than the claims made by some on this forum. Nothing untoward is going on, but the source of the data isn't the official CITES export paperwork or the national parks official scales, its the reported information as shared and accepted in the politics of PH associations if reported to them at all.

Not sure what to make of this either?

Which PH assosiations are you referring to?
Who uses a plane to spot and stalk elephant? Seriously?

 

[WAB]

3 elephant one client same "lower quality elephant area" in Zim and all three are mid to high 60lbs? I find that very hard to believe....

If along the Bots border means the plum thickets, that’s not a low quality area. I’ve seen pics of some monster bulls taken there.

 

[IvW]

If along the Bots border means the plum thickets, that’s not a low quality area. I’ve seen pics of some monster bulls taken there.

High quality area for large elephant are around Hwange correct other area is SE, close to Kruger and Gona-re-Zou in particular Malapati. However Malapati safari area was disbanded in 2018. Sengwe has 3 blocks or rather strip corridor, a narrow piece bordering Kruger it is also a campfire/community area from just west of the Bubi river towards Crooks corner....a hit and miss afair as big bulls from Kruger visit a certain time of the year cross over at night and dissapear before sunrise back to Kruger...good buff and nyala.....but poaching is rife....
Last 100lb + elephant I tracked was here....estimated min 120lbs....long thick tusks reaching to the ground, one slightly thinner than the other....
So best bet in Zim would be around Hwange, Tsholotsho probably.....

 

[Tundra Tiger]

@WAB... Not all of us are on the dark side of things. I work for USFWS and, sadly, 'we' often decide things I don't agree with. But I am just a grunt WAY off the beaten path in rural AK. I mind my own business and my little corner of the world. Some of us are very much not antis. Some of us have been to Africa once and are dying to go again.

 

[IvW]

As an example from back in 2014 Zim.....

Largest elephant to come out of a safari area...61.6/55 lbs
Best of three, 6 tusks average 51.93 lbs

 

[WilhelmM]

On the topic of trophy imports, if the process for getting ivory imported is simply too long and not worth anyone's time, why not get a replica made? I understand people like the real thing but some companies have been making picture perfect recreations of an animal taken, simply through some references from photos by the hunter.

It's kind of ridiculous how some outfitters in the past haven't seen business simply due to the hunter not being able to bring home a trophy. In a way, that kind of confirms the anti hunter's perception of us, even if untrue. It's about the experience, not the mount.

 

[rookhawk]

On the topic of trophy imports, if the process for getting ivory imported is simply too long and not worth anyone's time, why not get a replica made? I understand people like the real thing but some companies have been making picture perfect recreations of an animal taken, simply through some references from photos by the hunter.

It's kind of ridiculous how some outfitters in the past haven't seen business simply due to the hunter not being able to bring home a trophy. In a way, that kind of confirms the anti hunter's perception of us, even if untrue. It's about the experience, not the mount.

You ask a great question. The answer is complex as the people that hunt elephants.

1.) You can absolutely get replicas made. Casts are really close to perfect replicas as indeed, your real ivory is cast to make a second set. The cool/smart kids on the block get beautiful replicas made and have them fitted to stands/displays. Someday, if their real ivory ever shows up in the USA, they then can throw the copies in the trash and the real ivory will fit precisely into the stands where the replicas were previously. Oh, and this is very cheap. $1000. Forget the picture based replicas, these casts are made in Africa with the artist holding your real ivory in one hand and making the same defects in the finish of the replicas in the other hand. Even the CITES official weight stamps transfer over to the replicas.

2.) You can go on a management hunt and kill 20-30lb elephant that is not exportable. It is much, much less expensive. You can then go get replicas made if you want and have a Trophy In your home.

3.) But if you want really big ivory, you’re going to pay an unholy sum. And those that will pay 3x-5x more for their elephant hunt to get a really big elephant also want to export the ivory. And that’s the issue, most people want their ivory, obsessed to a point they will not hunt (support the economy) if they cannot get their genuine ivory. No need to take my word for it, look at the declining prices, the amount of operators closing down, and the reduction in tourism. Clearly owning their ivory is the most important thing for many hunters.

The most humourous and ironic part of all of this is I do not believe most people that paid an ultra premium for their exportable elephants will get them to the USA anyway. As I mentioned earlier, the case by case approval process requires a lot of giving back and supportable financial data. Many of these operators do not have evidence of schools they support, antipoaching data for 4 years, bore hole receipts they spent for the local tribe, etc, etc. The data must show the death of an elephant enhanced the chances of the species as a whole’s survival.

 

[Hunter4752001]

Did someone say they wanted a 70lb elephant?

 

[Milo]

Did someone say they wanted a 70lb elephant?

That one might be in my price range.