W & C Scott and Sons 12ga

[rookhawk]

I can't see all the necessary proof marks on the gun. I still await the OP to confirm that its an auto-resetting safety or not.

My working theory:

1.) The gun was a live pigeon gun (A non-resetting safety and Full/Full barrels would indicate pigeon gun, a resetting safety and Full/Full choke with 2-3/4" proof marks would suggest a fowling gun)
2.) If it had 1-1/4 ounce proofs for a 2-3/4" BLACK POWDER shell, this would mean it had been proofed for the same SERVICE PRESSURE as a 2-1/2" shell.
3.) Either the OP is mistaken that the gun has 3" chambers, OR some imbecile lengthened the chambers to 3". (proof marks will tell the original design story, a proper depth gauge will measure the chambers)

The notion of going out to shoot 3" black cloud or other extraordinary modern loads whizzing along at 1400+ FPS is out of the question. IF it has black powder proofs and 2-3/4" chambers, the notion of going out to shoot 2-3/4" pheasant loads at 1400 fps is also out of the question.

In any case, no matter what the proof marks say, that gun was proofed with the stock OFF. Just because the barrels and breach can handle being fired twice each with those loads doesn't mean the stock's wrist can or should endure those pressures. The gun should be shot with a 2.5" 1-1/8 ounce lead load at 1150-1250 fps. If nitro reproven at 2.75" length, then it would be a 2-3/4" shell of 1-1/8 ounce lead at 1150-1250 I'd be recommending.

These guns are like ferraris, they deserve a special diet. The only difference is nobody buys a ferrari and then argues that they can top off the fuel with 87 octane, it requires racing fuel. Yet with fine double guns everyone is trying to figure out how to feed dog food to something deserving of steak and lobster.

 

[sureshot375]

I can't see all the necessary proof marks on the gun. I still await the OP to confirm that its an auto-resetting safety or not.

My working theory:

1.) The gun was a live pigeon gun (A non-resetting safety and Full/Full barrels would indicate pigeon gun, a resetting safety and Full/Full choke with 2-3/4" proof marks would suggest a fowling gun)
2.) If it had 1-1/4 ounce proofs for a 2-3/4" BLACK POWDER shell, this would mean it had been proofed for the same SERVICE PRESSURE as a 2-1/2" shell.
3.) Either the OP is mistaken that the gun has 3" chambers, OR some imbecile lengthened the chambers to 3". (proof marks will tell the original design story, a proper depth gauge will measure the chambers)

The notion of going out to shoot 3" black cloud or other extraordinary modern loads whizzing along at 1400+ FPS is out of the question. IF it has black powder proofs and 2-3/4" chambers, the notion of going out to shoot 2-3/4" pheasant loads at 1400 fps is also out of the question.

In any case, no matter what the proof marks say, that gun was proofed with the stock OFF. Just because the barrels and breach can handle being fired twice each with those loads doesn't mean the stock's wrist can or should endure those pressures. The gun should be shot with a 2.5" 1-1/8 ounce lead load at 1150-1250 fps. If nitro reproven at 2.75" length, then it would be a 2-3/4" shell of 1-1/8 ounce lead at 1150-1250 I'd be recommending.

These guns are like ferraris, they deserve a special diet. The only difference is nobody buys a ferrari and then argues that they can top off the fuel with 87 octane, it requires racing fuel. Yet with fine double guns everyone is trying to figure out how to feed dog food to something deserving of steak and lobster.

 

[sureshot375]

I can't see all the necessary proof marks on the gun. I still await the OP to confirm that its an auto-resetting safety or not.

My working theory:

1.) The gun was a live pigeon gun (A non-resetting safety and Full/Full barrels would indicate pigeon gun, a resetting safety and Full/Full choke with 2-3/4" proof marks would suggest a fowling gun)
2.) If it had 1-1/4 ounce proofs for a 2-3/4" BLACK POWDER shell, this would mean it had been proofed for the same SERVICE PRESSURE as a 2-1/2" shell.
3.) Either the OP is mistaken that the gun has 3" chambers, OR some imbecile lengthened the chambers to 3". (proof marks will tell the original design story, a proper depth gauge will measure the chambers)

The notion of going out to shoot 3" black cloud or other extraordinary modern loads whizzing along at 1400+ FPS is out of the question. IF it has black powder proofs and 2-3/4" chambers, the notion of going out to shoot 2-3/4" pheasant loads at 1400 fps is also out of the question.

In any case, no matter what the proof marks say, that gun was proofed with the stock OFF. Just because the barrels and breach can handle being fired twice each with those loads doesn't mean the stock's wrist can or should endure those pressures. The gun should be shot with a 2.5" 1-1/8 ounce lead load at 1150-1250 fps. If nitro reproven at 2.75" length, then it would be a 2-3/4" shell of 1-1/8 ounce lead at 1150-1250 I'd be recommending.

These guns are like ferraris, they deserve a special diet. The only difference is nobody buys a ferrari and then argues that they can top off the fuel with 87 octane, it requires racing fuel. Yet with fine double guns everyone is trying to figure out how to feed dog food to something deserving of steak and lobster.

It is an auto reset safety. So perhaps it’s not a pigeon gun. It is however a pretty beefy gun. Weight over 7lbs.

 

[rookhawk]

View attachment 493489View attachment 493490View attachment 493491View attachment 493492

I see no indication that gun is anything but a 2.5" chambered gun. What does the word say before the word "Steel". It should say "Sir Joseph Whitworth's Fluid Steel" as he had patent on non-damascus in that era.

 

[sureshot375]

I see no indication that gun is anything but a 2.5" chambered gun. What does the word say before the word "Steel". It should say "Sir Joseph Whitworth's Fluid Steel" as he had patent on non-damascus in that era.

It says “Special Steel”

 

[rookhawk]

It is an auto reset safety. So perhaps it’s not a pigeon gun. It is however a pretty beefy gun. Weight over 7lbs.

I've owned several guns of this size and era from Scott and others that were pushing 7lbs. All it takes to get there is removing the horn butt plate from the original gun and putting a 1" silvers pad on to turn a 6lb 12 ounce gun into a 7lb gun.

The thing that is scary and unnerving to me is the Full/Full chokes. Its not impossible, they came any way you want them, but Brits weren't big full/full gun people. The biggest risk is that an idiot took a 2.5" chambered, pitted gun, lengthened the chambers to 3" ruining the gun, then removed all the pits of the barrels by honing the barrels deadly-dangerous thin from the breech so your IC choked gun is now reading as full thanks to .030" removed from both barrel wall thickness.

Have you tested the chamber depth with a chamber gauge, have you measured the chokes for yourself with a real bore/choke gauge ( A plunge-gauge to shove in the muzzle is absolutely worthless because it assumes a nominal bore dimension of .730", it does not measure the differential between bore and choke to give you ACTUAL choke) , and have you checked out the minimum wall thicknesses with a wall thickness gauge?

If not, the next trigger pull may be your last.

 

[NE 7x57]

That's a beautiful shotgun. Personally, I'd check the chamber length and then even if it's 2 3/4 I would shoot lighter loads in it. I hunt pheasants with a 20ga so I know you call kill pheasants with lighter loads. My problem with your gun would be hitting them with full/full but that's because I'm not a great shotgunner.

 

[375er]

I've owned several guns of this size and era from Scott and others that were pushing 7lbs. All it takes to get there is removing the horn butt plate from the original gun and putting a 1" silvers pad on to turn a 6lb 12 ounce gun into a 7lb gun.

The thing that is scary and unnerving to me is the Full/Full chokes. Its not impossible, they came any way you want them, but Brits weren't big full/full gun people. The biggest risk is that an idiot took a 2.5" chambered, pitted gun, lengthened the chambers to 3" ruining the gun, then removed all the pits of the barrels by honing the barrels deadly-dangerous thin from the breech so your IC choked gun is now reading as full thanks to .030" removed from both barrel wall thickness.

Have you tested the chamber depth with a chamber gauge, have you measured the chokes for yourself with a real bore/choke gauge ( A plunge-gauge to shove in the muzzle is absolutely worthless because it assumes a nominal bore dimension of .730", it does not measure the differential between bore and choke to give you ACTUAL choke) , and have you checked out the minimum wall thicknesses with a wall thickness gauge?

If not, the next trigger pull may be your last.

I cannot agree more!!

 

[rookhawk]

For help aging it.

View attachment 493380

The WC Scott guns were made in Birmingham, so should be looking at right side of table. It looks like it might be older (1887-1896), and I believe it’s a blackpowder rated gun. Might wanna go easy on it.

I'm grouchy today so rather than expressing frustration at poor proof mark pictures from the OP, - I get it, not everyone is a proof mark photography expert.

Please post the serial number and I'll pull the WC Scott ledgers and tell you the year of manufacture. I think its newer than the original estimate but the serial will tell us a lot more. If the picture of the crossed halberd were easier to read I could get you the proof date based on the three letters at West, South, and East of the Halberd points.'

POSTSCRIPT: Disregard. Too early for year-dates on the Birmingham proof marks. Its an 1887 to 1904 proof date range. To triangulate more we need the serial number. I'd love to see the photos of the barrel flats that show the nominal bore of 12/1, 13/1, and the 1-1/4 ounce proof, etc. I'd also like to see if it says "choke" on both barrels or just one.

 

[Red Leg]

Coming to this late, but I would agree with @rookhawk that the gun does not seem to match the description the seller gave you. For instance, have you actually measured the chokes? I have several period pigeon guns which I shoot regularly (and competitively). Chamber length typically has to be actually measured and won't be marked on the earlier guns. They can vary a lot and often have nothing to do with the proofed load. For instance, I have pre WWI Cashmore special built pigeon gun that is nitro proofed for 1 1/4 ounce loads but with 3 1/4 " chambers (for a short-lived proprietary pigeon cartridge). The 1 1/4 ounce is marked, but some idiot could measure the chamber and assume modern magnum loads would be fine - quickly ruining a fine gun, and maybe a body part or two. Now the longer chamber simply helps reduce recoil.

Another, a Stephen Grant pigeon gun, is proofed for 1 1/4 ounce loads but has 2 1/2 inch chambers that are so tight that firing a 2 3/4 inch load of any sort binds the action because the fired shell is too long for the chamber. It shoots 2 1/2 inch 1 1/4 ounce competition pigeon loads beautifully. But the 1 1/4 ounce proof is clearly marked on the flats.

Nothing that I see on the marks you have photographed indicates anything but a 1 1/8 ounce game gun with one barrel marked "choke" - unless the other barrel flat says the same. A single "choke" barrel is what one would expect on game gun rather than a pigeon gun.

By the way, I hunt pheasants and sharpies with my doubles and always only use 1 1/8 No. 6 ounce loads. They are decisive. The last thing needed, particularly in a fine double, is a magnum of any description.

 

[sureshot375]

I'm grouchy today so rather than expressing frustration at poor proof mark pictures from the OP, - I get it, not everyone is a proof mark photography expert.

Please post the serial number and I'll pull the WC Scott ledgers and tell you the year of manufacture. I think its newer than the original estimate but the serial will tell us a lot more. If the picture of the crossed halberd were easier to read I could get you the proof date based on the three letters at West, South, and East of the Halberd points.'

POSTSCRIPT: Disregard. Too early for year-dates on the Birmingham proof marks. Its an 1887 to 1904 proof date range. To triangulate more we need the serial number. I'd love to see the photos of the barrel flats that show the nominal bore of 12/1, 13/1, and the 1-1/4 ounce proof, etc. I'd also like to see if it says "choke" on both barrels or just one.

Serial number is 60051.
It does say choke on both barrels.

Let me see what I can do about getting some better pictures. I do appreciate your help.

 

[rookhawk]

Serial number is 60051.
It does say choke on both barrels.

Let me see what I can do about getting some better pictures. I do appreciate your help.

My WC Scott serial number ledger says 1898 production, @sureshot375. *source: Nigel Brown's 3 volume set.

I wish you were in my area, I'd like to measure that gun for you and get to the bottom of its safety and quality in about 2-beers.

Scott's of that era were excellent guns. Holland & Holland didn't even have a gun works until late 1898 so all those older Hollands are actually just INFERIOR grade W.C. Scott's than the one you own. The only concern is the chambers, wall thickness, and chokes. I really want to get into that.

 

[Red Leg]

Serial number is 60051.
It does say choke on both barrels.

Let me see what I can do about getting some better pictures. I do appreciate your help.

Interesting. Then it could indeed be a waterfowl or pigeon gun. I wish it had the proof load marked on it to be sure.

That said, assuming the chokes were never messed with, it would be a superb pheasant thumper with 1 1/8 ounce loads. If you use it on waterfowl, never ever put steel through it.

 

[sureshot375]

My WC Scott serial number ledger says 1898 production, @sureshot375. *source: Nigel Brown's 3 volume set.

I wish you were in my area, I'd like to measure that gun for you and get to the bottom of its safety and quality in about 2-beers.

Scott's of that era were excellent guns. Holland & Holland didn't even have a gun works until late 1898 so all those older Hollands are actually just INFERIOR grade W.C. Scott's than the one you own. The only concern is the chambers, wall thickness, and chokes. I really want to get into that.

Thanks for the info. It really is a piece of art. I was pleasantly surprised with the overall quality of the gun. I’m afraid this may not be my last classic gun buy.

I’ll get it to a gunsmith with the right tools to get everything measured.

 

[BeeMaa]

@sureshot375 - Secret option #2...buy another shotgun and keep this one for those "special" days once you get the specifics of this shotgun sorted out.

The Beretta 486 is a wonderful option, although it doesn't have the double triggers you are asking for. I'm sure with a little searching you can find a modern SxS with a straight English style stock and double triggers.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...plinter-forearm-on-sale-.cfm?gun_id=101878008

EDIT - Not nearly to the standards of your current shotgun, but the CZ Bobwhite does fit the bill.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...12-gauge-28-quot-barrels.cfm?gun_id=102084487

 

[375er]

@sureshot375 - Secret option #2...buy another shotgun and keep this one for those "special" days once you get the specifics of this shotgun sorted out.

The Beretta 486 is a wonderful option, although it doesn't have the double triggers you are asking for. I'm sure with a little searching you can find a modern SxS with a straight English style stock and double triggers.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...plinter-forearm-on-sale-.cfm?gun_id=101878008

EDIT - Not nearly to the standards of your current shotgun, but the CZ Bobwhite does fit the bill.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...12-gauge-28-quot-barrels.cfm?gun_id=102084487

Also Ugartechea makes some nice reasonably guns that would fit the bill too.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I made a little bit of an impulse buy in guns international. I was wanting a SxS shotgun with double triggers to build muscle memory for hunting with a double.

I picked up a W&C Scott and Sons 12 ga. 30 inch barrels with Full/Full chokes. Seller said it was made in 1900. Gun looks to be in good shape for its age. I don’t think it’s been refinished.

I want to hunt pheasants with this gun. The seller said it will handle 1 & 1/4 oz loads. What are everyone’s thought ion using 1 & 1/4 is heavy pheasant loads in this gun? I’ve included the best photos I can get of the proof marks.

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That is a beautiful gun, congratulations. You don’t need magnum loads to cleanly take pheasants. I used to hunt behind labradors & have taken a lot of phesants cleanly with 2-3/4“ 1-1/8oz trap loads. I’m thinking your gun was probably regulated with felt wads, it might throw really tight patterns with modern plastic wads. You could easily duplicate felt wads loading your own.
Good shooting & thanks for sharing that nice gun.

 

[rookhawk]

I made a little bit of an impulse buy in guns international. I was wanting a SxS shotgun with double triggers to build muscle memory for hunting with a double.

I picked up a W&C Scott and Sons 12 ga. 30 inch barrels with Full/Full chokes. Seller said it was made in 1900. Gun looks to be in good shape for its age. I don’t think it’s been refinished.

I want to hunt pheasants with this gun. The seller said it will handle 1 & 1/4 oz loads. What are everyone’s thought ion using 1 & 1/4 is heavy pheasant loads in this gun? I’ve included the best photos I can get of the proof marks.

View attachment 493341View attachment 493342View attachment 493343View attachment 493344View attachment 493345

I realize this is a bit of a personal intrusion so no offense taken if the answer is no.

Could we see a link to the original advert on GI for this gun? A picture the seller made, or a small detail you omitted could be very helpful to figuring out more about this gun.

 

[Bullthrower338]

Don’t give up so fast, this is how a guy learns! I had my lesson in the world of Colt SAA pistols, unfortunately I didn’t have the experience of folks like we do here. Just like when we were kids, sometimes you have to take an ass whipping to figure stuff out!

 

[sureshot375]

I realize this is a bit of a personal intrusion so no offense taken if the answer is no.

Could we see a link to the original advert on GI for this gun? A picture the seller made, or a small detail you omitted could be very helpful to figuring out more about this gun.

He took the listing down, but I have this screen shot of the description.