Viable "gaps" in the market that a new caliber could meaningfully fill in today's factory ammo selection

[VertigoBE]

How about a bolt action .510 caliber, standard rim (not recessed), full length, like a .510Gibbs?

 

[Cheesehead]

So, after thinking about it a bit, I think I found a "gap" in the market where a new cartridge or two might actually have a chance. For the AR -15 market, I think there would be some demand for a decent performing 7mm and maybe even a .308.

I'm thinking a 6.5 Grendel necked up to 7mm and .308, so at 7x39mm and 7.62x39mm improved. Currently, I don't think there is 7mm for the AR-15, but there are lots of 7mm projectiles to work with. This new 7.62 Grendel based cartridge would be superior to the old 7.62x39 because it would use much less case taper so it's a better fit for the AR platform and would use more commonly available .308 projectiles. It would also be loaded to higher pressure and have better ballistics than the little Russian or the 300 Blackout.

 

[WI-2021]

I doubt we will see any innovation in the area of dangerous game cartridges, but what do I know. I still think the 375 and 416 Ruger are both really smartly designed cartridges and we have seen how well those were received. None of the major ammo manufacturers besides Hornady make ammunition or components, and Hornady barely does. There is no better time than now for these two to take off, with the Ruger M77 being one of the only two affordable DG rifles remaining in production, but they're just not.

I'd like to see a 458 Ruger based on the same case as the 375 and 416. Theoretically, it'd outperform the 458 WM in a standard length action, but at least it would be a more modern case design. Not sure there is a need for it but I'd like it. Or, maybe Ruger should just chamber the M77 in 458 win mag...

I've thought that every niche has been filled for quite a while now, yet new cartridges keep coming along. In many cases, the driving force has been faster twist barrels for heavier bullets, but much the same could be accomplished with existing cartridges if twist rates were increased.

Regarding the .375 and .416 Ruger specifically, I'm not sure that they've been flops. The .375 has a following, myself included. That said, the market for .375's is small in the grand scheme of things, and the market for .416's is comparatively miniscule. I'm in the midst of a custom build in .375 Ruger right now, mainly due to the fact that I have a fair amount of ammo for it already. If I didn't, I'd have chosen .375 H&H in a heartbeat, and my action is long enough to accommodate it, should it ever become necessary. I'd just need a new barrel and magazine.

I'd love to see a .458 Ruger, but I can't see that succeeding. Chambering a lefty M77 in .458WM would do just fine for me.

 

[Northern Shooter]

I've thought that every niche has been filled for quite a while now, yet new cartridges keep coming along. In many cases, the driving force has been faster twist barrels for heavier bullets, but much the same could be accomplished with existing cartridges if twist rates were increased.

Regarding the .375 and .416 Ruger specifically, I'm not sure that they've been flops. The .375 has a following, myself included. That said, the market for .375's is small in the grand scheme of things, and the market for .416's is comparatively miniscule. I'm in the midst of a custom build in .375 Ruger right now, mainly due to the fact that I have a fair amount of ammo for it already. If I didn't, I'd have chosen .375 H&H in a heartbeat, and my action is long enough to accommodate it, should it ever become necessary. I'd just need a new barrel and magazine.

I'd love to see a .458 Ruger, but I can't see that succeeding. Chambering a lefty M77 in .458WM would do just fine for me.

Might be on to something with a 458 Ruger, an American made, modern take on the 458 WM. Large enough to differentiate itself from the 375 Ruger.

I feel like many may view the 375 and 416 Ruger has having a lot of overlap.

 

[skydiver386]

Unless you think there is a desperate need for that last little increase in velocity, I can't think of any gaps in our current cartridge lineup.

The introduction of new calibers has been excessive for quite a number of years. Many that were introduced in the last 20 years and touted as the best thing since sliced bread have now gone by the wayside. There are probably 100 factory cartridges that have been introduced since 1950, that are now obsolete and no longer in production, or very rapidly headed in that direction.

The .307 Winchester, 7x30 Waters, and .30 Remington were all fairly short lived because the public didn't see any advantage to them. The only reason many were brought out was to fit into a different action type or bolt face size, etc. The 307 and 7x30 were meant to increase the power and range of lever action rifles like the 30-30 Winchester, while the .30 Remington was bought to duplicate 30-30 ballistics in a semi-auto rifle. I'm 62, and I've owned rifles in all 3 of these calibers, and finding ammo for any of them is near impossible.

Rather than see new introductions, I'd prefer a revival of some classic, but very useful calibers, with the .257 Roberts at the top of the list.

 

[odonata]

I’m fond of the classics because they do everything my modest demands require. I have seven chamberings that are over 100 years old & three that are 68+ years old. Only my Wilson Combat in 300 HAM’R is a modern 21st-century “gap filler” for hog hunting. I’ll be long gone before my 303 British, 30-06 or 375 H&H ever become unsupported.

I think part of the recent proliferation of cartridge designs is driven by new bullet construction that can handle faster twist rates without failing. Long-distance shooting with high BC bullets is a popular trend. There’s also been a move towards shorter actions where large-capacity cases yield comparable performance to a long-action alternative. The variety of combos that’s possible in this space created a bewildering array of new options that we can assume will not all survive. Choose wisely.

A lot of the criticism I’ve seen about the modern 6.5CM dealt more with the “vibe” around it than its actual merits. It’s a worthy alternative to my 6.5x55 & I seriously doubt the game can tell the difference. Dead is dead. I think the 375 & 416 Ruger rounds were pretty good designs for affordable standard actions. But ammo variety is limited & components can be difficult to acquire which is a shame. Remington & Winchester can have their name on a successful cartridge design but apparently Ruger cannot. While smaller calibers can be endlessly tweaked (and they are), I think it’s a challenge to create significant improvements or differentiation in the larger DG rounds. If these two Ruger offerings are having difficulty usurping their classic rivals, it doesn’t give a lot of encouragement for others to try. I’m happy with my 458 Win Mag.

I don’t want a new gap filler. I wish they would just better support what has already been established instead of trying to constantly create the next best thing before quickly abandoning it.

 

[WI-2021]

Might be on to something with a 458 Ruger, an American made, modern take on the 458 WM. Large enough to differentiate itself from the 375 Ruger.

I feel like many may view the 375 and 416 Ruger has having a lot of overlap.

Agree that others may feel there's a lot of overlap between the .375's and .416's. Personally, I think there's enough differentiation for both to exist, but there's already a lot of competition in both niches and a pretty small market for both.

Regarding the .458 Ruger, I'd be shocked if someone hasn't already wildcatted one. I wonder how much velocity it would actually gain over the .458 WM. With no belt and a rather small shoulder, would headspace be an issue?

If one were comfortable with headspacing on the case mouth, the .375 Ruger case could probably be used to build a .500 in a standard long action without having to deal with a rebated rim. I'm not a wildcatter, or even a handloader, so I haven't actually mathed this one out. A factory .500 that will fit in a standard sized action with a magnum bolt face would have some appeal. It would fall short of a Jeffrey or Gibbs, but would it have enough capacity to replicate the .500 NE?

 

[WyoBull]

You ever watch any of Hornady’s podcasts in YouTube? Three to four guys sitting around blowing smoke up one another’s backside about what they just developed, trying to justify their jobs.
I am more interested in better bullets for the existing classic calibers than I am new calibers which I will never buy.

 

[Pondoro]

You live North of Paradise my friend! I suffer from European and small country syndrome!
In my country of Croatia, any caliber over 375 HH is hard to find. And for 375 HH only PPU and RWS is available with minimum choice of bullets.
DG market is too small for shops to bother with import of such things.
To fill this gap, I am switching to hand loads.

Speaking of smaller caliber ammo, anything that is not vanilla caliber is nightmare to find, such as any of the Weatherby calibers, 260, rem 280 remington, 444 marlin, anyother Creedmoors then 6.5, etc, etc
Basically, it is easier to list what is available, then what is not available.
In shops you can find almost any rifle from almost any factory, but in vanilla calibers. That covers 99.5% of market demand for hunting. Local shops are happy with that. And most of hunters are happy with that.

In Scandinavia, at least here in Norway, we have an importer of all the Hornady DGX/DGS series, Federal big game ammo is also imported. Norma is also available (to horrific prices..).

 

[John the Electrician]

I feel we are hard pressed to find meaningful gaps in calibers/cartridges. We would have to split the hairs pretty small.

What comes to mind for me are the cartridges on the small end of the spectrum. I have shot prairie dogs with 17 HMR, .204 Ruger, .223 Remington, 22-250 and .243 Winchester.

My favorite of all those being the .204. It’s a laser beam, you can see your hits through the scope without needing a heavy gun and it’s devastating on the varmints. It’s drawback is largely wind drift issues.

There may be an opportunity to add bullet length and velocity to the .204. Probably would need a different parent case to do so.

 

[PerH]

9,3x65 R Brenneke loaded by Brenneke , Rws and Geco and doubles by Krieghoff would solve many situations.

( it is same energy and power like 9,3x64 Brenneke )

 

[Ontario Hunter]

A .400 cal rimless bolt action would seem to fill a hole. Not recessed. Perhaps belted case though to avoid the headspace issues sometimes occurring when reloading 404J. Or at least some shoulder. Might be able to use the 404 case and just neck it down? Keep the same case length so it could be built on standard length action. Or maybe someone has already attempted this? I like the idea of a bullet with a bit more punch than 375 and a bit more range than 404 and a lot less recoil than 416 Rigby.

 

[mark-hunter]

In Scandinavia, at least here in Norway, we have an importer of all the Hornady DGX/DGS series, Federal big game ammo is also imported. Norma is also available (to horrific prices..).

For high value hunt, ammunition is never expensive.
We have importer of Hornady, Federal and Norma, but they never follow clients request to bother with export of something special.
All brands of ammo are available, but in calibers up to 9.3 mm

 

[Bush Buck]

I still think there's room in the all purpose African game cartridge. The 375 H&H reigns supreme but tends to come up a little short (long?) in the handiness department.
The 9.3x62 is a great but cannot legally be used in some countries for buffalo, etc.

I would like a .375 based on an optimized 9.3x62 case or a 338 Win Mag case. I'd be happy with 250 TTSX and 270 TSX bullets.
Of course Northern Shooter asked for viable cartridges and this probably isn't one - these have been wildcatted already.

The closest is probably the 375 Ruger which has come close to being a real success. I suspect that baxterb and cajunchefray are correct that it needed a more classic name - this would have lowered the threshold for other companies to produce ammo.
The 338-06 "A-Square" name was a similar (and probably worse) mistake.

The 375 Ruger is also more powerful than needed for a general purpose cartridge. I suspect the factory ammo is too powerful to encourage hunters to use it - unless they really need the power.
Ruger should have gone with less velocity and more recoil pad.

A 250 TTSX at 2600 fps is mighty effective. This and more is easily achievable in a standard Mauser action with a .375 bullet.

Bush Buck

 

[Northern Shooter]

Agree that others may feel there's a lot of overlap between the .375's and .416's. Personally, I think there's enough differentiation for both to exist, but there's already a lot of competition in both niches and a pretty small market for both.

Regarding the .458 Ruger, I'd be shocked if someone hasn't already wildcatted one. I wonder how much velocity it would actually gain over the .458 WM. With no belt and a rather small shoulder, would headspace be an issue?

If one were comfortable with headspacing on the case mouth, the .375 Ruger case could probably be used to build a .500 in a standard long action without having to deal with a rebated rim. I'm not a wildcatter, or even a handloader, so I haven't actually mathed this one out. A factory .500 that will fit in a standard sized action with a magnum bolt face would have some appeal. It would fall short of a Jeffrey or Gibbs, but would it have enough capacity to replicate the .500 NE?

I think the "overlap" between the two Ruger cartridges is due to the fact that the 375 performs over and above the 375HH while the 416 Performs at the same or less velocity than the RemMag or Rigby, narrowing the gap between the two classes.

In terms of the 458, the Ruger cases seem to have slightly more capacity vs the Win Mag (100gr vs 95gr). Maybe there is the potential to load the 458 slightly longer to say 3.400 to further increase that capacity and produce similar to what the "458+" does for reloaders.

In terms of a short action 500, a "500 Ruger Express" has a nice ring to it. Make it 550gr+ at 2,150-,2300 fps to produce big stopping power with lower recoil figures than the 500 Jeffery.

 

[Northern Shooter]

A .400 cal rimless bolt action would seem to fill a hole. Not recessed. Perhaps belted case though to avoid the headspace issues sometimes occurring when reloading 404J. Or at least some shoulder. Might be able to use the 404 case and just neck it down? Keep the same case length so it could be built on standard length action. Or maybe someone has already attempted this? I like the idea of a bullet with a bit more punch than 375 and a bit more range than 404 and a lot less recoil than 416 Rigby.

This reminds me of listening to an interview with Dr Kevin Robertson where he was trying to describe the perfect dangerous game cartridge for Big 5 hunting.

His opinion was it should fit in-between the 375HH and 416 Rigby, more punch and sectional density than the 375, less recoil than the 416 Rigby.

I believe he settled on either a 0.400 cal or 0.411 cal 400-450 grain bullet loaded to 2,150-2,250 fps producing less than 50 ft-lbs of recoil while still producing over 5,000 ft-lbs. of energy.

Basically a 3.6" bolt action version of the 450/400 NE that would produce an additional 200 fps.

 

[WI-2021]

I still think there's room in the all purpose African game cartridge. The 375 H&H reigns supreme but tends to come up a little short (long?) in the handiness department.
The 9.3x62 is a great but cannot legally be used in some countries for buffalo, etc.

I would like a .375 based on an optimized 9.3x62 case or a 338 Win Mag case. I'd be happy with 250 TTSX and 270 TSX bullets.
Of course Northern Shooter asked for viable cartridges and this probably isn't one - these have been wildcatted already.

The closest is probably the 375 Ruger which has come close to being a real success. I suspect that baxterb and cajunchefray are correct that it needed a more classic name - this would have lowered the threshold for other companies to produce ammo.
The 338-06 "A-Square" name was a similar (and probably worse) mistake.

The 375 Ruger is also more powerful than needed for a general purpose cartridge. I suspect the factory ammo is too powerful to encourage hunters to use it - unless they really need the power.
Ruger should have gone with less velocity and more recoil pad.

A 250 TTSX at 2600 fps is mighty effective. This and more is easily achievable in a standard Mauser action with a .375 bullet.

Bush Buck

As I started reading your post I thought "he's describing a slightly downloaded .375 Ruger." Sure enough, you were. I agree on the recoil pad, Ruger should have gone with a much better pad on all of the M77's, especially the .375 and .416. My .375's have both had 1" Decelerators installed which helped significantly.

 

[WI-2021]

I think the "overlap" between the two Ruger cartridges is due to the fact that the 375 performs over and above the 375HH while the 416 Performs at the same or less velocity than the RemMag or Rigby, narrowing the gap between the two classes.

In terms of the 458, the Ruger cases seem to have slightly more capacity vs the Win Mag (100gr vs 95gr). Maybe there is the potential to load the 458 slightly longer to say 3.400 to further increase that capacity and produce similar to what the "458+" does for reloaders.

In terms of a short action 500, a "500 Ruger Express" has a nice ring to it. Make it 550gr+ at 2,150-,2300 fps to produce big stopping power with lower recoil figures than the 500 Jeffery.

Fair point that the Ruger cartridges have less of a gap between them than the .375 H&H and .416 Rem/Rigby do.

I'm curious whether anyone on here has played with the .375 Ruger case to make a .458 or .500 and what the results were.

 

[HWL]

There’s an interesting idea.

It looks like the 470 Capstick attempted that concept but it never caught on.

0.475 cal bullet, 500gr @2,400 fps.

Wichester tried it and failed.....

HWL

 

[Northern Shooter]

Wichester tried it and failed.....

HWL

Which cartridge was that?