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Verney Carron .500
- Thread starter PaulT
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I edited/added the earlier post spike..
DOUBLEHOLICS ANONYMOUS NOW!!!!!!!:laughing:
PaulT
AH elite
"I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM", ", I REPEAT,
"I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM", just joking.
Have assembled four new loads to trial down the range next week-end.
Never fired Norma brass & Fed 215 mag primer;
*101gns R15 with 475gn C.E.B non-con,
*102gns R15 with 475gn C.E.B non-con,
*103gns R15 with 475gn C.E.B non-con,
*104gns R15 with 475gn C.E.B non-con.
Each load will be carefully chronyd, looking for diminished return in velocity, and observed for any signs of building pressure in the gun.
Loads of 100gns of R15 have allready been fired and noted as mild for the gun but there is little doubt that somewhere amongst these loads is a max that I must aproach carefully.
Will be testing next week-end and report back after that.
Note to oneself, oh what a joy loading virgin brass !!!!
"I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM", just joking.
Have assembled four new loads to trial down the range next week-end.
Never fired Norma brass & Fed 215 mag primer;
*101gns R15 with 475gn C.E.B non-con,
*102gns R15 with 475gn C.E.B non-con,
*103gns R15 with 475gn C.E.B non-con,
*104gns R15 with 475gn C.E.B non-con.
Each load will be carefully chronyd, looking for diminished return in velocity, and observed for any signs of building pressure in the gun.
Loads of 100gns of R15 have allready been fired and noted as mild for the gun but there is little doubt that somewhere amongst these loads is a max that I must aproach carefully.
Will be testing next week-end and report back after that.
Note to oneself, oh what a joy loading virgin brass !!!!
AkMike
AH fanatic
Paul,
You're NOT looking for max velocity with a DR.
You look for the closest gouping possible. Just note the velocity so that you can dulicate that later on with other lots of the powder and components. IMO The RL-15 varies some between the different batches and you need to know what works with this lot number so it can be duplicated later on.
The max load has already been run thru that rifle with the proof loads. You don't want to go there again!
If these are loads that Sam Rose gave you then you're good to go! I looked at Wrights book for the 470 and it's interesting that he doesn't show the RL-15.
You're NOT looking for max velocity with a DR.
You look for the closest gouping possible. Just note the velocity so that you can dulicate that later on with other lots of the powder and components. IMO The RL-15 varies some between the different batches and you need to know what works with this lot number so it can be duplicated later on.
The max load has already been run thru that rifle with the proof loads. You don't want to go there again!
If these are loads that Sam Rose gave you then you're good to go! I looked at Wrights book for the 470 and it's interesting that he doesn't show the RL-15.
PaulT
AH elite
Mike, I did not intend for my post to suggest I was seeking max velocity.
I am simply using velocities as a general guide in the load development process.
This gun is a 500, not a 470.
And yes Graeme only lists one load for R15 in the .500 but two good freinds of mine who were involve with extensive testing of the .500 cartridge found a number of useful and efficient loads using R15 and lacking any need for fillers or wads.
The rifle was factory regulated with a 570gn slug and I am trying to tune in 475gn slugs to the same point of aim.
At this point loads tested with 100gns of R15 are still nearly an inch low of point of aim and the composite of the two barrels is close to three inches apart.
The loads Sam gave me consisted of 535gn and 510gn slugs and those loads were regulated for a Sabatti rifle.
These loads contained up to 100gns of R15 for the 535gn.
Everybody has agreed that to bring the barrel groups together more, and slightly higher, back to the point of aim, with a lighter slug, it was safe to assume a slightly higher charge that would increase vels slightly and brings the barrels closer together.
I am going a grain up at a time, looking for any signs as I go.
Appreciate the warnings.
Paul.
PaulT
AH elite
Mike, i'm really surprised that as highly reccomended as R15 comes for working with the .500 that it isn't as suitable for the .470 as well ?
Are these two cases not very similar in capacity etc ?
Are these two cases not very similar in capacity etc ?
AkMike
AH fanatic
I haven't tried it in any but my 500/450 and my 450 NE. But different lots aren't the same for me. I had to find a slightly diferent load for them so I went back to the tried and true IMR4831. I believe that is you 2213?
Possibly the RL-15 will work better for you? I hope so. I might just be an anomaly.
It'd be interesting to see if others have found this to be the case.
Possibly the RL-15 will work better for you? I hope so. I might just be an anomaly.
It'd be interesting to see if others have found this to be the case.
PaulT
AH elite
UP-DATE TO THIS THREAD.
I am about to publish some results of some very recent testing.
The results of that testing relate directly to my recent posting in regards to finding a load that would regulate in my rifle (V.C) utilising R15 as the powder base and the 475gn brass C.E.B non-con projectile.
Note;
this never was an excercise to see how much velocity could be achieved.
This was purely a trial to find where the 475gn brass non-con would regulate at in a Sabatti rifle.
The testing itself is a result of the combined efforts of Michael McCourry (founder B&M, designer bbw 13)of Sth Carolina and Sam Rose (conspiritor/designer bbw 13 and double rifle fanatic) of Nth Carolina.
Testing took place in the B&M facility; closed, indoor range, 50yds
records for velocity only, there were no pressure traces or barrel strain gauges utilised in any of the testing.
Measures for pressure were the standard double rifle handloader's tried and true visual observation for sticky/tight cases or any resistance from case ejecting/extracting. A special note was paid to the level of ease in opening the rifle as loads went up in intensity.
IMPORTANT NOTES.
Before I proceed with the actual results, as we are now dealing with double rifle idiosincracies it is important to note;
* these loads proved safe only in the rifle (Sabatti) they were fired in, individual rifles may vary results.
These loads HAVE NOT been trialed in any other gun other than a modern production double and may/may not be safe in older guns.
* it is well known that R15 is susceptable to variations in Lot of Powder, loads listed proved safely with one particular batch, it is reccommended to anyone wishing to reproduce these results start well down and work your way up slowly, one grain at a time.
The best regulation for Sam's Sabatti firing the 475gn non-con was at 112gns of R15 which resulted in over 2300fps muzzle velocity.
A load of 110gns of R15 propelled the 510gn solid at 2275fps.
(note, I very much doubt velocities such as these have very been recorded from a .500 N.E double rifle)
These are quite stunning figuers that no current .500 N.E shooter could possibly ignore for very long.
This will enhance .500 performance and results.
Having personally seen what 450gn brass non-cons fired from a bolt gun at 2400fps do to buffalo, these loads in .510 cal will carry tremendous energy, bolt-rifle velocity and the tremendous terminal performance of those incredible brass non-con projectiles.
The quintessential buffalo/caliber/cartridge/rifle recipe !
500 N.E !
I am about to publish some results of some very recent testing.
The results of that testing relate directly to my recent posting in regards to finding a load that would regulate in my rifle (V.C) utilising R15 as the powder base and the 475gn brass C.E.B non-con projectile.
Note;
this never was an excercise to see how much velocity could be achieved.
This was purely a trial to find where the 475gn brass non-con would regulate at in a Sabatti rifle.
The testing itself is a result of the combined efforts of Michael McCourry (founder B&M, designer bbw 13)of Sth Carolina and Sam Rose (conspiritor/designer bbw 13 and double rifle fanatic) of Nth Carolina.
Testing took place in the B&M facility; closed, indoor range, 50yds
records for velocity only, there were no pressure traces or barrel strain gauges utilised in any of the testing.
Measures for pressure were the standard double rifle handloader's tried and true visual observation for sticky/tight cases or any resistance from case ejecting/extracting. A special note was paid to the level of ease in opening the rifle as loads went up in intensity.
IMPORTANT NOTES.
Before I proceed with the actual results, as we are now dealing with double rifle idiosincracies it is important to note;
* these loads proved safe only in the rifle (Sabatti) they were fired in, individual rifles may vary results.
These loads HAVE NOT been trialed in any other gun other than a modern production double and may/may not be safe in older guns.
* it is well known that R15 is susceptable to variations in Lot of Powder, loads listed proved safely with one particular batch, it is reccommended to anyone wishing to reproduce these results start well down and work your way up slowly, one grain at a time.
The best regulation for Sam's Sabatti firing the 475gn non-con was at 112gns of R15 which resulted in over 2300fps muzzle velocity.
A load of 110gns of R15 propelled the 510gn solid at 2275fps.
(note, I very much doubt velocities such as these have very been recorded from a .500 N.E double rifle)
These are quite stunning figuers that no current .500 N.E shooter could possibly ignore for very long.
This will enhance .500 performance and results.
Having personally seen what 450gn brass non-cons fired from a bolt gun at 2400fps do to buffalo, these loads in .510 cal will carry tremendous energy, bolt-rifle velocity and the tremendous terminal performance of those incredible brass non-con projectiles.
The quintessential buffalo/caliber/cartridge/rifle recipe !
500 N.E !
PaulT
AH elite
Mike, I'd be very interested in hearing of your results once you've tested the C.E.B's.
I trust these will be in a .470
Will you be trialling the lighter for caliber slugs ?
I will be interested in seeing if the benefits provided by these projectiles extends to other N.E cartridges.
I can't see why they wouldn't ?
I have to pull some loads and reload them before getting a chance to trial some of the loads tested by Mike and Sam.
Pulling bullets from .50+ cal is a pain in the rear as it must be done manually.
I'm hoping that my V.C regulates with these higher velocity, lighter weight loads.
A .500 Nitro double firing a 475gn monolithic brass non-con at 2200 - 2300 fps
is one heck of a powerhouse !
PaulT
AH elite
I managed to get back down to the range yesterday and follow up testing loads for regulation, some of you may have some interest in those tests.
Before I procede I should mention that these loads prooved safe IN MY RIFLE and anyone loading these should start well down and slowly build up carefully watching for any signs of pressure as the load increases.
Your results may vary from mine.
It should also be noted that there appears to be a generally accepted theory, amongst those that use it, that R15 powder does vary from cannister to cannister and is another reason, for anyone wanting to duplicate these loads, to be conservative when loading.
As an addendum to the above note I will be re-shooting some of these loads using a different cannister of R15 as a comparison test.
START LOW AND WORK YOUR WAY UP.
These loads were shot over a bench, in the typical benchrest position.
Firearm is a Verney Carron Roundbody, 23" barrels.
The forearm stock is cushioned by the palm of the leading hand.
Distance to target was 50yds.
Distance to chronograph was 15yds because of the nature of the rifle -range the chronograph cannot be set up at the standard 15 feet (approx vel loss of 50fps).
Range temp was very warm at 30 C.
Projectile; C.E.B 475gn brass non-con.
Groups;
each individual barrel was shot twice resulting in four shot groups.
LOAD VELOCITY AVERAGE
107GNS R15 2220 2184
107GNS R15 2163
107gns R15 2172
107gns R15 2183
108gns R15 2253 2264
108gns R15 2265
108gns R15 2266
108gns R15 2275
109gns R15 2289 2283
109gns R15 2300
109gns R15 2268
109gns R15 2275
110gns R15 2340 2315
110gns R15 2310
110gns R15 2299
110gns R15 2315
Also, out of general curiousity, I shot four factory Hornady D.G.X's, loaded with a more traditional for caliber 570gn bullet.
They averaged just under 2000fps
This final handload of 110gns R15 brought the barrels together, within 2" of one another, each hitting about one inch of their side of the aiming point and about 1/2" below point of aim.
Groups from each individual barrel were excellent, with most second shots hitting the hole of the first shot.
Even with the 110gn load there are no signs of pressure in either the cases, in the manner which they "release" from the chamber and are ejected, nor the gun in terms of effort required to open the action.
I am currently awaiting a shipment of more C.E.B's and will be re-shooting some of these loads for comparison (from another tin of R15) and will also trial 111gns and 112gns.
These light-for-caliber brass non-con projectiles have provided an oportunity of unprecidented performance from the .500 Nitro Express.
Paul.
Before I procede I should mention that these loads prooved safe IN MY RIFLE and anyone loading these should start well down and slowly build up carefully watching for any signs of pressure as the load increases.
Your results may vary from mine.
It should also be noted that there appears to be a generally accepted theory, amongst those that use it, that R15 powder does vary from cannister to cannister and is another reason, for anyone wanting to duplicate these loads, to be conservative when loading.
As an addendum to the above note I will be re-shooting some of these loads using a different cannister of R15 as a comparison test.
START LOW AND WORK YOUR WAY UP.
These loads were shot over a bench, in the typical benchrest position.
Firearm is a Verney Carron Roundbody, 23" barrels.
The forearm stock is cushioned by the palm of the leading hand.
Distance to target was 50yds.
Distance to chronograph was 15yds because of the nature of the rifle -range the chronograph cannot be set up at the standard 15 feet (approx vel loss of 50fps).
Range temp was very warm at 30 C.
Projectile; C.E.B 475gn brass non-con.
Groups;
each individual barrel was shot twice resulting in four shot groups.
LOAD VELOCITY AVERAGE
107GNS R15 2220 2184
107GNS R15 2163
107gns R15 2172
107gns R15 2183
108gns R15 2253 2264
108gns R15 2265
108gns R15 2266
108gns R15 2275
109gns R15 2289 2283
109gns R15 2300
109gns R15 2268
109gns R15 2275
110gns R15 2340 2315
110gns R15 2310
110gns R15 2299
110gns R15 2315
Also, out of general curiousity, I shot four factory Hornady D.G.X's, loaded with a more traditional for caliber 570gn bullet.
They averaged just under 2000fps
This final handload of 110gns R15 brought the barrels together, within 2" of one another, each hitting about one inch of their side of the aiming point and about 1/2" below point of aim.
Groups from each individual barrel were excellent, with most second shots hitting the hole of the first shot.
Even with the 110gn load there are no signs of pressure in either the cases, in the manner which they "release" from the chamber and are ejected, nor the gun in terms of effort required to open the action.
I am currently awaiting a shipment of more C.E.B's and will be re-shooting some of these loads for comparison (from another tin of R15) and will also trial 111gns and 112gns.
These light-for-caliber brass non-con projectiles have provided an oportunity of unprecidented performance from the .500 Nitro Express.
Paul.
AkMike
AH fanatic
Paul, for you expermient try to make sure that you use different lot numbers on the 'tin'. Next years batch might not work as well. OR get bigger quanities of a lot # so you won't need to do a bunch of shooting to find the right load again.
PaulT
AH elite
Yes, thanks for the heads up, I'll check lot numbers to ensure I'm using a different "lot".
I have numerous small cannisters, the larger cannisters almost impossible to get down here especially so during this the great components depression of 2013 !
R15 is rumoured commonly to be variable from tin to tin, I've never physically checked or compared.
I'm pleased with its consitency as you can see groups of the same loads mostly fall within the 30-60fps variation deveation, of which half or more is in the chrony recording accuracy.
I also want to test a 111gn and 112gn load, only because I'm confident the gun can handle it and also I'd like to see if the barrels converge more than they have at this point, which is each barrel printing one inch either side of the aiming point and about half an inch lower than I prefer.
If regulation does not change/improve with one of these heavier load I'll go back to the 110gn load which is very mild in my gun and produces better than practical field accuracy and no filler material required.
Mike I hope you have as much fun with these in your .470 as I'm having !
I have numerous small cannisters, the larger cannisters almost impossible to get down here especially so during this the great components depression of 2013 !
R15 is rumoured commonly to be variable from tin to tin, I've never physically checked or compared.
I'm pleased with its consitency as you can see groups of the same loads mostly fall within the 30-60fps variation deveation, of which half or more is in the chrony recording accuracy.
I also want to test a 111gn and 112gn load, only because I'm confident the gun can handle it and also I'd like to see if the barrels converge more than they have at this point, which is each barrel printing one inch either side of the aiming point and about half an inch lower than I prefer.
If regulation does not change/improve with one of these heavier load I'll go back to the 110gn load which is very mild in my gun and produces better than practical field accuracy and no filler material required.
Mike I hope you have as much fun with these in your .470 as I'm having !
PHOENIX PHIL
AH ambassador
Good work Paul! Looking forward to a first animal down story.
PaulT
AH elite
Phil, I'll make sure I have some pics and stories when I return from the 2013 season.
I'm quite confident that this gun with these loads will prove to be absolutely devastating !
Each season I am responsible for providing meat to various family members that make up the clans that own the land that I hunt on.
This meat is aquired from the wild Oxen in our region which can be both a challenging hunt and also very difficult to put down at times.
I'd say this double will make short work of that !!!!
Mike, great to see your getting a "kick" (no pun intended) out of this.
Yeh, I have sore cheeks too but for a different reason !
25 rounds in relative quick succession behind a .500 over the bench will do that to yu.
I'm quite confident that this gun with these loads will prove to be absolutely devastating !
Each season I am responsible for providing meat to various family members that make up the clans that own the land that I hunt on.
This meat is aquired from the wild Oxen in our region which can be both a challenging hunt and also very difficult to put down at times.
I'd say this double will make short work of that !!!!
Mike, great to see your getting a "kick" (no pun intended) out of this.
Yeh, I have sore cheeks too but for a different reason !
25 rounds in relative quick succession behind a .500 over the bench will do that to yu.
PaulT
AH elite
I have posted above some images of a nice bull I took recently with the double mentioned in this thread.
The rifle is a Verney Carron .500 ejector, field grade CCH Round-body action, matt-black "cote" finish to 22" barrels, standard express sights, double triggers.
Load used; 475gn C.E.B Safari Raptor hand-loaded with R15 to 2400fps.
The rifle is a Verney Carron .500 ejector, field grade CCH Round-body action, matt-black "cote" finish to 22" barrels, standard express sights, double triggers.
Load used; 475gn C.E.B Safari Raptor hand-loaded with R15 to 2400fps.
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