US Fish and Wildlife withdraws 17 enhancement findings for elephant and lion

[Bruce]

I am sure if you paid them what they are selling the meat for, they would be happy to let you keep the meat.

That's exactly the point!! On a trophy hunt, for example, I have to pay the inflated prices charged to overseas hunters and then to keep the meat, pay again whatever the guy is selling it for. On normal, what we here call "biltong" hunts, I pay a flat rate for the animal and keep everything. So, its becoming more and more difficult to find suitable biltong hunting venues, as everyone wants to cater for the overseas markets. Many biltong hunting areas now also have the caveat included for horn length, so that IF a trophy sized animal is found and shot, then the hunter must pay the equivalent trophy fee. Most of RSA hunters are in the biltong hunt phase and do not pay/ cannot afford the higher dollar based fees on trophy hunts. Many of my trophies at home are from such biltong hunts, over the years. I do not hunt with a tape... but if I get a decent looking kudu/ oryx / warthog or whatever, then I have it mounted... regardless of trophy status. Just getting INCREASINGLY more difficult to find such hunts, particularly in Western and Eastern Cape, which is closer to my home.

For clarity sake, I reiterate that NOT all outfitters/ landowners are doing this and I have had hunts where the guys bend over backwards to make it possible for me to take meat home after the hunt... without paying anything extra.
I merely compare the USA hunter predicament with not being allowed to import elephant trophy parts into the States to my predicament of not being ALLOWED to keep my meat. On enquiry, IF the outfitter/ landowner says I cannot have the meat, UNLESS paying the extra buck for it, I do NOT hunt there!!! Similar to what is being said in above posts... IF I cannot keep my "trinkets" then I won't hunt there.

 

[IdaRam]

No it is like getting to have sex with her but only getting show pictures to your friends..you can have sex with her and enjoy it...or you can whine about it on a listserve!

Scott, we haven’t always agreed with each other in the past, but in this case I am in 100% agreement with you! Well said

 

[IdaRam]

A PH told me that hunting a trophy bull elephant and not getting to keep the ivory is like marrying a beautiful woman and not being allowed to having sex with her.

Key word there being “marrying”

 

[sierraone]

That's exactly the point!! On a trophy hunt, for example, I have to pay the inflated prices charged to overseas hunters and then to keep the meat, pay again whatever the guy is selling it for. On normal, what we here call "biltong" hunts, I pay a flat rate for the animal and keep everything. So, its becoming more and more difficult to find suitable biltong hunting venues, as everyone wants to cater for the overseas markets. Many biltong hunting areas now also have the caveat included for horn length, so that IF a trophy sized animal is found and shot, then the hunter must pay the equivalent trophy fee. Most of RSA hunters are in the biltong hunt phase and do not pay/ cannot afford the higher dollar based fees on trophy hunts. Many of my trophies at home are from such biltong hunts, over the years. I do not hunt with a tape... but if I get a decent looking kudu/ oryx / warthog or whatever, then I have it mounted... regardless of trophy status. Just getting INCREASINGLY more difficult to find such hunts, particularly in Western and Eastern Cape, which is closer to my home.

For clarity sake, I reiterate that NOT all outfitters/ landowners are doing this and I have had hunts where the guys bend over backwards to make it possible for me to take meat home after the hunt... without paying anything extra.
I merely compare the USA hunter predicament with not being allowed to import elephant trophy parts into the States to my predicament of not being ALLOWED to keep my meat. On enquiry, IF the outfitter/ landowner says I cannot have the meat, UNLESS paying the extra buck for it, I do NOT hunt there!!! Similar to what is being said in above posts... IF I cannot keep my "trinkets" then I won't hunt there.

I think it would be a good experience (at least for me) to hunt with a local at least once. Don't know if it is practical or legal or not.

 

[Rick Cox]

So right brother! Its disgusting how we think we can oversee wildlife in other countries. Goes to show you just how badly in the wrong direction this country continues to move. I for one am starting to feel Trump is slowly becoming a swamp rat! He was so buddy buddy with the NRA and sportsman, now he is showing his real feelings for hunters. I m sure he doesent approve of his sons once being hunters.

Starting???!

 

[Moosemind]

Elephant hunting to me means great leather for projects, a well marinated fat steak, and caressing the tusks when I get them home long after the hunt. I never put an animal down just to give it away. Money or no money.
Anyone who doesn't see limiting exports controls hunting is a fool. How many hunters would come to Alaska to hunt Moose if they couldn't bring the antlers home?

 

[Pheroze]

or you can whine about it on a listserve!

If objecting to the arbitrary act of a President who has ignored the scientific findings of his own governmental department is being a whiner then...guilty as charged. Especially when it is objectively having a negative impact on the those who have put their life into it. You may take comfort in a cheap hunt, but I think the "price" is more dear than you acknowledge.

 

[Scott Slough]

If objecting to the arbitrary act of a President who has ignored the scientific findings of his own governmental department is being a whiner then...guilty as charged. Especially when it is objectively having a negative impact on the those who have put their life into it. You may take comfort in a cheap hunt, but I think the "price" is more dear than you acknowledge.

Your continued whining only makes the joke funnier!

 

[Pheroze]

Your continued whining only makes the joke funnier!

I have no idea what you are saying. I am obviously not smart enough to keep up with you.

 

[Scott CWO]

Although I acknowledge that this new policy of approval of a lion import on a case by base basis instead of on a country-wide basis makes it very difficult for a safari company to market hunts, I think it leaves the door open for some imports if the USFWS is sincere. If the safari company does a good job and can give the hunter some data on populations and anti-poaching efforts, then I hope that an application backed with this data will get approved.

This is exactly what I have done with assistance from the safari company staff and PHs. I gave the company a small, refundable deposit and we are going to see how it turns out. I will let you guys know. The area I may be hunting actually has a few too many lions, according to a recent study, and the operator does extensive anti-poaching work so we will see just how honestly this new process works.

I am hopeful that this imperfect system will be adapted to elephants soon as well.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Your continued whining only makes the joke funnier!

You don't do too bad yourself. Half of your posts are whining about someone else's posts.

 

[ack]

Trump is a damn site better than the other choice so I wouldn't bash him too much..Probably doing the best he can considering what he's up against.

 

[saed]

From Craig:

The fact that U.S. F&W will consider applications on a case-by-case basis is certainly better than a blanket negative, but logic suggests this will be a time-consuming and cumbersome process. I continue to be hopeful. African addicts younger than I am may not remember that back in the 1970s and early 80s we could not bring any sport-hunted leopards at all into the United States...this was because of our "Spotted Cat Act" which preceded CITES. We've been bringing legally taken sport-hunted leopards into the U.S. with little difficulty for more than 30 years. Also, because of the widespread commercial ivory poaching in the 70s and 80s we figured elephant hunting and the elephants were doomed. We were wrong; we didn't foresee the incredible growth in the southern populations. So, on the one hand things are not as bad as they could be, but these are tough times. We know that while the African elephant is threatened in many areas it is also overpopulated in some areas. The lion is a very similar situation, threatened in many areas, but stable in others, and quite possibly overpopulated in a few areas. We know that placing value on wildlife is key to its survival, especially in Third World economies, but the dedicated anti-hunters are unlikely to accept this concept, and it's difficult for even the non-hunting majority to understand what we do. Just like everybody else I'm getting tired of U.S. Fish & Wildlife practicing environmental imperialism and setting their own rules instead of simply following CITES, which should be the worldwide standard and arbiter in these matters. But maybe we're making some progress. We shall see.

 

[Harris Emmons]

I recently heard of one USFWS inspector that returned a set of elephant tusks because they did noy have "a splash of color" on them. Has anyone else heard of this standard?

 

[WAB]

I've got to agree with Scott here. To hunt an elephant is still completely and totally legal. Nothing is preventing you from doing that. Now if you chose not to hunt because you can't bring the trinket home, or the hunt is too expensive, or you're recoil shy and don't like big guns, or you think elephants are too sweet and cuddly to shoot, then that is your call, not USFWS. The only thing they stop is importation, not hunting.

I hunted an elephant. And I did it believing I would not get to bring the ivory back. I wanted to hunt, not to import. Would I like the ivory? Of course. But, I didn't want to let my government tell me what I could legally do. HUNTERS make import bans work!



I've followed this whole thing pretty closely. If getting the ivory home was important to me, which it's not, then I wouldn't agree to an elephant hunt in any country if I didn't have a permit from USFWS in hand before the hunt took place.

I agree with Royal. I hate the import ban but it won’t stop me hunting elephant. In fact I plan to take one in ‘19. This may work in my favor as the hunt cost for a non-importable bull is way down. I’ll have replicas of the tusks made to bring home and put the ivory in storage in Zim hoping for a better day when I can bring it home. Having two citizenships I may send it to Canada so that I can drive up and get it when the import is legal.

 

[Scott CWO]

Looks like from the memo importation of ivory from Zim is still a problem. But if I am correct SA is ok to import.

You are incorrect. Applies to all imports from any country.

 

[flatwater bill]

The ground-swell populist and governmental pressure to "save the elephant" is overwhelming. Worldwide. They simply don't know how to do it. I learned a lot from this thread. Some very different but very valid points of view. I think this decision will have an overall negative impact on elephant in the future. I believe even the USFWS knows this. Kenya is planning to kill elephant poachers. They are blacks, principally. Legal hunters from Europe and the USA are principally white men. We are not a favored group. Any discussion of poaching vs hunting involves this aspect of the discussion. We haven't done a good job explaining that legal hunting is necessary for survival of the elephant. We need to hammer that point home.........no hunting, no $ for conservation, no elephant. Remember that Africa's human population will double in the next 32 years.....(it tells Greenies that doing nothing is not an option). Use the addax as an example. Good intentions couldn't save the addax, but hunters did it. But however you do it, at the end of the discussion, recognize that we are all hunters on this forum (except for a few bridge trolls) and we need to stick together............................good hunting...........................Flatwater Bill