Tungsten buckshot for leopard follow up?

[Shooter375]

I like the idea since tungsten is both heavier and harder than lead. This is what I would buy when it is in stock.

Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote 12 Ga Ammo 3 #00 Buckshot 12 Pellets Box of 5

Dead Coyote shotshells offer a varmint load ideal for taking out coyotes out to 70 yards. They are also a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service approved load...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[HankBuck]

Using TSS will result in needing a much smaller pellet size to achieve much better results. For goose, when lead was used it was typically #2 shot. With TSS we use #7 and it hits like lightning with birds falling stone dead.

I’ll be going to a farm this weekend to hunt coyote and that calls for #4 TSS shot, where in the past it was always 00-BUCK.

I would think for something like leopard, it would be #2 shot or just a little bigger for TSS.

BTW - Price is a big deal with TSS. The coyote loads cost me $65/box of 5. I may not be pattern testing this for the cost.

@BeeMaa - good luck on Coyote hunt, assume you are calling?—-or hunting over bait? I had very consistent action from Jan 15th on - shot 4 {2 w/.22mag & 2/w/.22-250} but movement slowed down almost to a stop this past week - not even getting camera pictures. Hope you get one…the snow & cold might get them roaming farther hunting for food —-they seem to have already picked out their mates. I’m sure your TSS will work fine as lead #2s & BBs worked well for my Son and I out to 40 yrds and Hevi shot 2s also good….TSS should knock em down

 

[BeeMaa]

@BeeMaa - good luck on Coyote hunt, assume you are calling?—-or hunting over bait? I had very consistent action from Jan 15th on - shot 4 {2 w/.22mag & 2/w/.22-250} but movement slowed down almost to a stop this past week - not even getting camera pictures. Hope you get one…the snow & cold might get them roaming farther hunting for food —-they seem to have already picked out their mates. I’m sure your TSS will work fine as lead #2s & BBs worked well for my Son and I out to 40 yrds and Hevi shot 2s also good….TSS should knock em down

Using an electronic call with a thermal on my AR. The shotgun is going as a backup.

 

[dogcat1]

10 pagaes of posts.... we may be over thinking this a bit....

 

[Chryss]

When everyone thinks alike, it's often because no one is thinking at all

 

[HankBuck]

Using an electronic call with a thermal on my AR. The shotgun is going as a backup.

@BeeMaa - I had No doubt you’d be prepared…all you need is a cooperative Coyote or Fox to come in

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Using an electronic call with a thermal on my AR. The shotgun is going as a backup.

I’m going to try that tomorrow. Tonight will be too cold for me.

 

[CJW]

Using TSS will result in needing a much smaller pellet size to achieve much better results. For goose, when lead was used it was typically #2 shot. With TSS we use #7 and it hits like lightning with birds falling stone dead.

I’ll be going to a farm this weekend to hunt coyote and that calls for #4 TSS shot, where in the past it was always 00-BUCK.

I would think for something like leopard, it would be #2 shot or just a little bigger for TSS.

BTW - Price is a big deal with TSS. The coyote loads cost me $65/box of 5. I may not be pattern testing this for the cost.

#2 would be A LOT of holes to put in a leopard hide if a close shot was presented or required.

I've wondered what a load of bbb or t shot would look and perform like on various animals.

 

[DLSJR]

I had a good conversation this afternoon with Brice Hensley of Foxtrot Ammo. For those not familiar with Foxtrot, they custom load TSS shotgun shells for a variety of gauges and uses. Glad I got him as I ordered a couple 5 packs of 28 gauge turkey loads. 1 1/2 ounces of 8.5x9 TSS. It’s devastating stuff.

OK, about TSS for follow-up on a wounded leopard…. Brice has no doubt that a 12 gauge 1 3/4 or 2 ounce load of TSS 2’s or 3’s would stop any cat. I asked about T shot or 4 buck and he felt the smaller shot would be better and told me he did a penetration test where he shot a 180-200 pound sow pig broadside at 50 yards, using a load of TSS 3’s. He said approximately 90% of the pellets completely penetrated the pig and exited. 3’s! At 50 yards on a PIG!!! He did say that even though he can get TSS T shot and 4 buck to load, it’s very hard on choke tubes and he doesn’t recommend it. He feels that a load of TSS 2’s at 10 yards or so may very well penetrate the full length of a leopard. Not width, length.

Think of this - a 2 ounce load of TSS 2’s is 875 grains and about .75 caliber shot charge. That hitting a leopard is somewhat like hitting it with a 600 Nitro Express, albeit at a lower velocity with much higher density pellets than the equivalent lead pellet load. Lead is 9 grains per cc; HeviShot is 12 grains per cc. TSS is 18 grains per CC.

 

[Sarg]

I had a good conversation this afternoon with Brice Hensley of Foxtrot Ammo. For those not familiar with Foxtrot, they custom load TSS shotgun shells for a variety of gauges and uses. Glad I got him as I ordered a couple 5 packs of 28 gauge turkey loads. 1 1/2 ounces of 8.5x9 TSS. It’s devastating stuff.

OK, about TSS for follow-up on a wounded leopard…. Brice has no doubt that a 12 gauge 1 3/4 or 2 ounce load of TSS 2’s or 3’s would stop any cat. I asked about T shot or 4 buck and he felt the smaller shot would be better and told me he did a penetration test where he shot a 180-200 pound sow pig broadside at 50 yards, using a load of TSS 3’s. He said approximately 90% of the pellets completely penetrated the pig and exited. 3’s! At 50 yards on a PIG!!! He did say that even though he can get TSS T shot and 4 buck to load, it’s very hard on choke tubes and he doesn’t recommend it. He feels that a load of TSS 2’s at 10 yards or so may very well penetrate the full length of a leopard. Not width, length.

Think of this - a 2 ounce load of TSS 2’s is 875 grains and about .75 caliber shot charge. That hitting a leopard is somewhat like hitting it with a 600 Nitro Express, albeit at a lower velocity with much higher density pellets than the equivalent lead pellet load. Lead is 9 grains per cc; HeviShot is 12 grains per cc. TSS is 18 grains per CC.

Ive always found normal lead buckshot loads killing ability Way over estimated.

But this TSS & HeviShot sounds incredible even in standard shot shell loads ?

Hard to actually believe, bit like way back a lot of us didn’t Believed that a Turbo Charger could increase power that much ?

 

[Sideshow]

Or you could go Capstick and this is where I think he had one too much while writting this putting on a leather jacket and mask for his face and head as well as his throat and then go in with shotgun and buckshot.

I did laugh when I read that. Had this image of Bruce Willis and gimp mask.

 

[BeeMaa]

#2 would be A LOT of holes to put in a leopard hide if a close shot was presented or required.

I've wondered what a load of bbb or t shot would look and perform like on various animals.

The purpose of using a shotgun would be for follow up, not the initial shot. I wouldn't give a crap about the hide if the PH or someone else had to use something like this because the first shot wasn't placed correctly for whatever reason. My concern lies with the safety of the hunting party...once that's taken care of, the (now dead) cat can be processed.

 

[BeeMaa]

He did say that even though he can get TSS T shot and 4 buck to load, it’s very hard on choke tubes and he doesn’t recommend it.

This is my feeling on choke as well. Lead has the option of deforming as it goes through the choke, TSS will not deform.

Think of this - a 2 ounce load of TSS 2’s is 875 grains and about .75 caliber shot charge. That hitting a leopard is somewhat like hitting it with a 600 Nitro Express, albeit at a lower velocity with much higher density pellets than the equivalent lead pellet load. Lead is 9 grains per cc; HeviShot is 12 grains per cc. TSS is 18 grains per CC.

2 oz of #2 TSS is 108 pellets. Compare that to the 9 or 10 pellets in the typical 3" lead 00-BUCK shell and the difference is clear.

FYI - I've tried HEVI-SHOT (12 g/cc) on several occasions and could not get it to pattern well enough at even 30 yards to hunt goose or duck, let alone coyote or (God forbid) a charging leopard. I'll spend the extra money and use TSS because it just works better.

 

[CJW]

The purpose of using a shotgun would be for follow up, not the initial shot. I wouldn't give a crap about the hide if the PH or someone else had to use something like this because the first shot wasn't placed correctly for whatever reason. My concern lies with the safety of the hunting party...once that's taken care of, the (now dead) cat can be processed.

I get it. I'm just saying that you could still make a very dead cat, maybe deader, with upping the size a few points AND not totally wreck a hide at the same time. I was also thinking about the possibility of a treed cat like someone had mentioned.

To each their own.

 

[Chryss]

I wanted to share some interesting information I recently came across. I found a YouTube video by a French hunter that showcases penetration tests with tungsten ammunition. He also mentions an Excel calculator that estimates penetration based on distance and other parameters.

The link to the video is:

I hope this can be useful for some

 

[HankBuck]

I had a good conversation this afternoon with Brice Hensley of Foxtrot Ammo. For those not familiar with Foxtrot, they custom load TSS shotgun shells for a variety of gauges and uses. Glad I got him as I ordered a couple 5 packs of 28 gauge turkey loads. 1 1/2 ounces of 8.5x9 TSS. It’s devastating stuff.

OK, about TSS for follow-up on a wounded leopard…. Brice has no doubt that a 12 gauge 1 3/4 or 2 ounce load of TSS 2’s or 3’s would stop any cat. I asked about T shot or 4 buck and he felt the smaller shot would be better and told me he did a penetration test where he shot a 180-200 pound sow pig broadside at 50 yards, using a load of TSS 3’s. He said approximately 90% of the pellets completely penetrated the pig and exited. 3’s! At 50 yards on a PIG!!! He did say that even though he can get TSS T shot and 4 buck to load, it’s very hard on choke tubes and he doesn’t recommend it. He feels that a load of TSS 2’s at 10 yards or so may very well penetrate the full length of a leopard. Not width, length.

Think of this - a 2 ounce load of TSS 2’s is 875 grains and about .75 caliber shot charge. That hitting a leopard is somewhat like hitting it with a 600 Nitro Express, albeit at a lower velocity with much higher density pellets than the equivalent lead pellet load. Lead is 9 grains per cc; HeviShot is 12 grains per cc. TSS is 18 grains per CC.

@DLSJR - Lead density is 11.3cc (Not 9.0)….still nowhere near TSS. A question might be: If TSS penetrates that deep then would it create the “trauma” needed to stop a charge? Thinking about a Full Metal Jacket bullet vs a lead bullet that “mushrooms” — there is a trade off. I’m Not certain what the right balance is to stop a charge (I never stopped anything bigger then a charging rabbit). Maybe it’s academic because shooting any animal thru-the-skull requires No expansion to be effective. I will leave dispatching charging Leopards to PH’s that have actually done it and see what they prefer….when they switch to TSS there will be real data and experience to review.

 

[BeeMaa]

@DLSJR - Lead density is 11.3cc (Not 9.0)….still nowhere near TSS. A question might be: If TSS penetrates that deep then would it create the “trauma” needed to stop a charge? Thinking about a Full Metal Jacket bullet vs a lead bullet that “mushrooms” — there is a trade off. I’m Not certain what the right balance is to stop a charge (I never stopped anything bigger then a charging rabbit). Maybe it’s academic because shooting any animal thru-the-skull requires No expansion to be effective. I will leave dispatching charging Leopards to PH’s that have actually done it and see what they prefer….when they switch to TSS there will be real data and experience to review.

You would also need to add in ALL the pellets that TSS would be hitting with. 108 #2 TSS pellets at 18 g/cc vs 9 or 10 lead 00-BUCK pellets at 11.8 g/cc. I'd like to see some type of equation

Surface area equation: A = 4 π r(squared)

Take that and divide by two to get the surface area that will be impacting the animal.

Multiply by the number of pellets to get the total surface area that will be impacting the animal (theoretically).

#2 TSS comes out to 3.815
00-BUCK lead comes out to 1.710 (I used 10 pellets for this calculation)

TSS takes it by more than double that of lead. Even if 1/4 of the TSS pellets miss or hit non-critical areas, it's still an overwhelming win. The additional pellets also give a higher probability of actually hitting those critical areas and stopping the charge. Plus the higher density and smaller size of the TSS pellets will maintain energy at a greater distance than the larger, less dense lead ones.

I get it @HankBuck, you don't like the cost. Truth is, I don't either. What I like worse is hitting game animals and watching them continue to fly/run away. With the sole reason being that I was using an inferior shell. I know this thread is about leopard, but the same principles apply.

Tell you what, go buy some Winchester Last Call #7 TSS shells to compare it with lead #2 shells...both proven killers on goose. Shoot them at a pattern board and make a video of it hitting the paper. The difference energy transfer is immediately apparent, even without using ballistic gel.

 

[HankBuck]

You would also need to add in ALL the pellets that TSS would be hitting with. 108 #2 TSS pellets at 18 g/cc vs 9 or 10 lead 00-BUCK pellets at 11.8 g/cc. I'd like to see some type of equation

Surface area equation: A = 4 π r(squared)

Take that and divide by two to get the surface area that will be impacting the animal.

Multiply by the number of pellets to get the surface area that will be impacting the animal (theoretically).

#2 TSS comes out to 3.815
00-BUCK lead comes out to 1.710 (I used 10 pellets for this calculation)

TSS takes it by more than double that of lead. Even if 1/4 of the TSS pellets miss or hit non-critical areas, it's still an overwhelming win. The additional pellets also give a higher probability of actually hitting those critical areas and stopping the charge. Plus the higher density and smaller size of the TSS pellets will maintain energy at a greater distance than the larger, less dense lead ones.

I get it @HankBuck, you don't like the cost. Truth is, I don't either. What I like worse is hitting game animals and watching them continue to fly/run away. With the sole reason being that I was using an inferior shell. I know this thread is about leopard, but the same principles apply.

Tell you what, go buy some Winchester Last Call #7 TSS shells to compare it with lead #2 shells...both proven killers on goose. Shoot them at a pattern board and make a video of it hitting the paper. The difference energy transfer is immediately apparent, even without using ballistic gel.

@BeeMaa - my issue with TSS has nothing to do with its effectiveness - it is clearly superior ! The cost is irrelevant —-for a CHARGING Leopard !! I’d gladly pay $1000 per shell to gain an advantage there !! For calling in Coyote, even though have killed 2 with shotgun —- I would also use TSS because a 35 lb Coyote is way tougher then any “bird” and can run a long way after a hit. I’d also invest in TSS for Turkey, as it appears superior there too and cost is Not a factor when only shooting 1-3 shells per year Turkey hunting.
For duck hunting & geese I find Never found the Need as limits easily taken with Steel and Hevi Shot (steel 3s have been good on ducks and 1s or BBs on geese). Make good shots (TSS doesn’t prevent “misses” or even cripples with bad shooting) and use a retriever. I also rarely ever use 3” shells on waterfowl - 2 3/4” has worked well. We are in agreement that TSS is better and if you duck hunted with me over the past 30 years you’d have seen many limits taken with steel & Hevi shot….
Good luck Coyote hunting, I still have had one on camera going on 10 days now - last 2 shot were females and would’ve thought a Male would be around by now looking for a New mate??

 

[BeeMaa]

@HankBuck - Agreed. TSS doesn't make up for poor shooting. But the additional pellets, energy transfer and density make cleaner kills at the same distance as lead. And at the same time, TSS extends the range with a more uniform and tighter patterns at EVERY distance against every other material used for shotguns.

Until depleted uranium pellets come on the market, TSS is the best tool for the job.

I'll tell you this...if I were taking a shotgun to Africa for bird hunting, I'd be happy to pack a bunch of TSS #2's for my PH if he wanted them.

 

[DLSJR]

@BeeMaa - my issue with TSS has nothing to do with its effectiveness - it is clearly superior ! The cost is irrelevant —-for a CHARGING Leopard !! I’d gladly pay $1000 per shell to gain an advantage there !! For calling in Coyote, even though have killed 2 with shotgun —- I would also use TSS because a 35 lb Coyote is way tougher then any “bird” and can run a long way after a hit. I’d also invest in TSS for Turkey, as it appears superior there too and cost is Not a factor when only shooting 1-3 shells per year Turkey hunting.
For duck hunting & geese I find Never found the Need as limits easily taken with Steel and Hevi Shot (steel 3s have been good on ducks and 1s or BBs on geese). Make good shots (TSS doesn’t prevent “misses” or even cripples with bad shooting) and use a retriever. I also rarely ever use 3” shells on waterfowl - 2 3/4” has worked well. We are in agreement that TSS is better and if you duck hunted with me over the past 30 years you’d have seen many limits taken with steel & Hevi shot….
Good luck Coyote hunting, I still have had one on camera going on 10 days now - last 2 shot were females and would’ve thought a Male would be around by now looking for a New mate??

A few comments based on personal observations of mine and a couple good friends.

Coyotes - HeviShot Dead Coyote loads are fantastic. We’ve killed coyotes with this load as far as 70+ yards. At 25-40 yards it absolutely flattens them. TSS would be better and you wouldn’t shoot enough shells for cost to matter, but Dead Coyote is so good I personally won’t bother with TSS.

Turkeys - Two of my buddies are pretty fanatical turkey hunters and all they hunt them with is 410’s shooting TSS loads of9’s & 10’s. I’ve been hunting turkeys for 47 years, mostly with a 3” 12 gauge and a variety of shells, mostly lead or HeviShot 4’s or 6’s. The TSS hits noticeably harder, even out of a 410. This season I’m going to do all my turkey hunting with a 28 gauge shooting Foxtrot Ammo 1 1/2 oz. Loads of 8.5x9’s.

Waterfowl - TSS is in a completely different league than anything else. I’ve seen dozens of mallards and about 25 honkers shot with those same 410’s and TSS turkey loads and that stuff crushes honkers. The problem is we’ve had to discard some breasts due to too much blood shot meat. Those little 9’s & 10’s go clear through honkers even at extended ranges. Cost is a factor but the buddy from Alabama put it well when he was out duck & goose hunting with me in Idaho. He pointed out that with airfare, non-resident license, lodging, guide, etc., $300 or so for 410 shells was the smallest expense of his trip. These days I do nearly all my waterfowl hunting with a 20 or 28 gauge shooting HeviShot and it’s very effective. But when my buddy is next to me shooting TSS out of a 410, it’s easy to see how much more effective TSS is.

So much for the leopard discussion!